!!!HEADS UP!!! Those considering a RENNTech tune..
03-18-2017, 11:16 AM
#51
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2016 S212 E400 RENNTech 345 whp/360 wtq
So I wonder if the add-on piggyback modules from Brabus, Kleemann leave telltales in the data log? Edit: I mean if it leaves signs after the module is disconnected/removed...
Last edited by need2speed; 03-18-2017 at 11:53 AM.
03-18-2017, 12:14 PM
#52
Super Member
It's been repeated more than once here, if Audi has the ability to do it, and it's been confirmed many times over that they can, chances are that MB has the ability.
A 2nd ECU probably isn't going to help you avoid any of this.
03-18-2017, 03:18 PM
#53
MBWorld Fanatic!
By all detailed accounts I have read, especially in the world Audi, a piggyback leaves an abnormal log trace of parameters, stored outside of the ecu.
It's been repeated more than once here, if Audi has the ability to do it, and it's been confirmed many times over that they can, chances are that MB has the ability.
A 2nd ECU probably isn't going to help you avoid any of this.
It's been repeated more than once here, if Audi has the ability to do it, and it's been confirmed many times over that they can, chances are that MB has the ability.
A 2nd ECU probably isn't going to help you avoid any of this.
Idk. At the end of the day I'm still going to tune my car, have the $$ available to replace my tranny just in case, and roll the dice on being covered by a warranty. As long as a dealer is getting paid I don't see the problem in where the money is coming from.
03-18-2017, 03:39 PM
#54
Wrong... like i said another local guy down here and has renntech and is not flagged status 8... reading comprehension is not you strong suit it seems as ALL = 100% ... thus you are wrong since I know at least 1 person w/renntech tune that is not flagged.... myth busted 
again, you try to be as vague as possible so you can backtrack, when your intent was clearly biased towards renntech
but yes, if your context was that "all renntech tunes done thru MB dealer are flagged" then I would have no problem with that statement... other than its completely a captain obvious statement.... duh, if you buy a tune from the dealer they will know you are tuned... great info
again, you try to be as vague as possible so you can backtrack, when your intent was clearly biased towards renntech
but yes, if your context was that "all renntech tunes done thru MB dealer are flagged" then I would have no problem with that statement... other than its completely a captain obvious statement.... duh, if you buy a tune from the dealer they will know you are tuned... great info
ALL as in all cars not just the E63.
All dealers will know if you have been tuned if you are flagged. That means status 8 flagging is shown under every MB dealer database if you pull up in another dealership after being flagged at a different dealer.
PS if you need explanation, ask and stop assuming.
Anyone can also note how in no where did I state Renntech is flagging your cars. I used Renntech tune as the example cos of content of "a perceived no way MB will void your warranty," warranty in a previous thread. Dealers who tuned your car will flag it, and if for some reason it comes to light that you have a eurocharged tune, yep flagged as well. But common sense indicates a dealer will know about your Renntech tune first if you used them.
Dealers were NOT flagging tunes Renntech little while ago, hence my post about that being done NOW in the previous thread from weeks ago.
Yes reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You even claimed in the previous thread there was no flagging. I'm done with this, you clearly argue for argument sake
PS: I did say I was done with this but since Gaspam has to he spoon fed English comprehension, let me be a bit clearer for the 5th grader
Last edited by kponti; 03-19-2017 at 10:45 AM.
03-18-2017, 03:51 PM
#55
Senior Member
I would assume that logs would be stored showing at least higher boost is being logged than what comes from factory so I would imagine that would be the dead giveaway.
The more I thought about it, the more that I agree here. It'll still get logged and stored in a separate memory outside of the ECU. So in theory, yes, it would be logged. However, they would really have to dig and something significant would have to happen.
Idk. At the end of the day I'm still going to tune my car, have the $$ available to replace my tranny just in case, and roll the dice on being covered by a warranty. As long as a dealer is getting paid I don't see the problem in where the money is coming from.
The more I thought about it, the more that I agree here. It'll still get logged and stored in a separate memory outside of the ECU. So in theory, yes, it would be logged. However, they would really have to dig and something significant would have to happen.
Idk. At the end of the day I'm still going to tune my car, have the $$ available to replace my tranny just in case, and roll the dice on being covered by a warranty. As long as a dealer is getting paid I don't see the problem in where the money is coming from.
I know there are many modules in the car all keeping different types of information.
Even if MB does take data off the cars when they connect to the "homebase" I would think all the different modules simply report their respective data sets.
Having tuned a few models of cars in the past 20 years, I have never ran across one that has a "central location" within the vehicle it's self to "log" or "store" all the vehicles systems.
Many modern interfaces, simply communicate to each module via the vehicle communication bus. Then the connected interface (MB tech tool, PC program, Generic OBD scanner) simply collate all that into one "file" for the operator to read.
03-18-2017, 03:55 PM
#56
Senior Member
BEING as in happening. I even qualified it in a subsequent post stating my car is not flagged because it was done prior to the status 8 flagging.
ALL as in all cars not just the E63.
All dealers will know if you have been tuned of you are flagged. PS if you need explanation, ask and stop assuming.
Yes reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You even claimed in the previous thread there was no flagging. I'm done with this, you clearly argue for argument sake
ALL as in all cars not just the E63.
All dealers will know if you have been tuned of you are flagged. PS if you need explanation, ask and stop assuming.
Yes reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You even claimed in the previous thread there was no flagging. I'm done with this, you clearly argue for argument sake
kponti, there is so much one can do. There is people that will deny that 1+1=2...because "they read or saw it somewhere" I have learned that in this forum there are a few people that are open to exchange of knowledge in lieu of ego. I starting to reach people in PMs instead of having to prove negative.
03-18-2017, 04:50 PM
#57
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2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
BEING as in happening. I even qualified it in a subsequent post stating my car is not flagged because it was done prior to the status 8 flagging.
ALL as in all cars not just the E63.
Yes reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You even claimed in the previous thread there was no flagging. I'm done with this, you clearly argue for argument sake
ALL as in all cars not just the E63.
Yes reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You even claimed in the previous thread there was no flagging. I'm done with this, you clearly argue for argument sake
clearly reading comprehension is not your strong point as i said in the other thread "their is no flagging coming from them (Renntech) directly" in reply to another member's comment of "how is this going to help renntech's sales?"... of course you being the sensitive one had to jump in thinking i was talking to you
so for all the non-politicians please clarify since you know it all....
1. when did MB start flagging ALL CARS... now please be specific mr. politican as ALL CARS would include fords and kia's since you like to play word games
2. please confirm who is letting MB know a car is RENNTECH tuned (keep in mind 3 different people on this forum have confirmed with renntech that its not them)
3. please confirm how people like myself (up until jan) and others, with renntech tunes, that go to dealers with renntech tunes, were not flagged on their most recent visits if they are flagging now? that would indicate that only way MB is finding out is either.. A) new tunes bought directly from dealer or ..B) dealer visually/electronically detects existing tune and flags it or C) the customer themselves tells the dealer they are tuned (my case)
so back to my original point which you dont seem to grasp is, DUH if you buy a renntech tune thru the dealer guess what... they now know your tuned
and also, if they find any other brand tune on your car (or indication ecu tampered with) you will also be flagged... duh, everyone already knew this ..... again, thanks for the breaking news flash Rachel Maddow
Last edited by gaspam; 03-18-2017 at 11:35 PM.
03-18-2017, 04:52 PM
#58
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2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
kponti, there is so much one can do. There is people that will deny that 1+1=2...because "they read or saw it somewhere" I have learned that in this forum there are a few people that are open to exchange of knowledge in lieu of ego. I starting to reach people in PMs instead of having to prove negative.
03-20-2017, 03:59 PM
#59
Super Member
I wish there was a engine study guide available for the car. I would real be interested to learn if engine operating logs are actually stored outside the ecu it's self.
I know there are many modules in the car all keeping different types of information.
Even if MB does take data off the cars when they connect to the "homebase" I would think all the different modules simply report their respective data sets.
Having tuned a few models of cars in the past 20 years, I have never ran across one that has a "central location" within the vehicle it's self to "log" or "store" all the vehicles systems.
Many modern interfaces, simply communicate to each module via the vehicle communication bus. Then the connected interface (MB tech tool, PC program, Generic OBD scanner) simply collate all that into one "file" for the operator to read.
I know there are many modules in the car all keeping different types of information.
Even if MB does take data off the cars when they connect to the "homebase" I would think all the different modules simply report their respective data sets.
Having tuned a few models of cars in the past 20 years, I have never ran across one that has a "central location" within the vehicle it's self to "log" or "store" all the vehicles systems.
Many modern interfaces, simply communicate to each module via the vehicle communication bus. Then the connected interface (MB tech tool, PC program, Generic OBD scanner) simply collate all that into one "file" for the operator to read.
Be it max boost, rpm, timing, etc beyond what oem tuning would call for.
A single flag is not necessarily grounds for a td1, but string a few of them together ... they'll be digging for more.
And again, from what I remember, I believe hooking into the scan network is required for most warranty work.
Last edited by Mike450; 03-20-2017 at 04:02 PM.
03-20-2017, 04:10 PM
#60
Senior Member
If I recall correctly, as someone actually took a pic of td1 code report at the dealer level, it's not a laundry list of detailed info, but a lone flag that is generated if a certain parameter(s) is exceeded.
Be it max boost, rpm, timing, etc beyond what oem tuning would call for.
A single flag is not necessarily grounds for a td1, but string a few of them together ... they'll be digging for more.
And again, from what I remember, I believe hooking into the scan network is required for most warranty work.
Be it max boost, rpm, timing, etc beyond what oem tuning would call for.
A single flag is not necessarily grounds for a td1, but string a few of them together ... they'll be digging for more.
And again, from what I remember, I believe hooking into the scan network is required for most warranty work.
Question is where is are the parameters stored? In the case of engine information?
03-21-2017, 11:12 AM
#61
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would also speculate that a completely stock car (un-tuned) that is run to redline on a daily basis before the powertrain is properly warmed up, will have more mechanical wear than a tuned car that is properly warmed up and has its fluids changed at half the regular service interval (I always did oil/fluid changes more frequently on my modded cars). But ultimately a second hand buyer should know the risks associated with buying a used car.
03-21-2017, 12:11 PM
#62
Super Member
03-24-2017, 11:00 PM
#63
MBWorld Fanatic!
Want to talk about "value?" Just because you mix up a bunch of words in some non sense doesn't mean you added value. In fact, it took me a second to make sense of the above post by separating out words with forgotten punctuation. Which brings me to my next point...
"Your work" is suspiciously a different font, has terrible punctuation, and vocabulary which doesn't match most of your other posts with the same font. So, the amount of "your work" in those thoughts may be limited to "copy" and "paste"
This is the only post anyone needs to read in order to gauge how much you say should be taken seriously. This is a very basic concept, definitely in the forced induction world, that you would've picked up in high school PHY or PHY101 (both of which you seemingly took). The hotter the air, the faster it goes through the turbo, and the faster the impeller spins, ultimately leading to more power. Yes, you have to manage the heat because too much heat would be a bad thing. Just for future reference.
And you want to talk about value... I genuinely think you plagiarized the above and/or at least throw in complex words in otherwise relatively simple conversations. I would like to hear why your "smart" post was in a different font with punctuation errors everywhere when the rest of what you post is generally clean.
Just an outsider here telling you how you come off so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt as well. Not over here with my measuring tape ready to measure... I'm still trying to convince people 2'' is enough to get the job done
Anyways, I'm with this guy. If you want to avoid risk buy another ecu. It's cheaper than most of the mods you'll do to the car and ECU's are easy to swap. Keep your factory one as is, pick up a second ECU that MB programs to the car, and go to town on that one. Just swap when you take it in for service.
"Your work" is suspiciously a different font, has terrible punctuation, and vocabulary which doesn't match most of your other posts with the same font. So, the amount of "your work" in those thoughts may be limited to "copy" and "paste"
This is the only post anyone needs to read in order to gauge how much you say should be taken seriously. This is a very basic concept, definitely in the forced induction world, that you would've picked up in high school PHY or PHY101 (both of which you seemingly took). The hotter the air, the faster it goes through the turbo, and the faster the impeller spins, ultimately leading to more power. Yes, you have to manage the heat because too much heat would be a bad thing. Just for future reference.
And you want to talk about value... I genuinely think you plagiarized the above and/or at least throw in complex words in otherwise relatively simple conversations. I would like to hear why your "smart" post was in a different font with punctuation errors everywhere when the rest of what you post is generally clean.
Just an outsider here telling you how you come off so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt as well. Not over here with my measuring tape ready to measure... I'm still trying to convince people 2'' is enough to get the job done
Anyways, I'm with this guy. If you want to avoid risk buy another ecu. It's cheaper than most of the mods you'll do to the car and ECU's are easy to swap. Keep your factory one as is, pick up a second ECU that MB programs to the car, and go to town on that one. Just swap when you take it in for service.
03-25-2017, 08:59 AM
#64
So much talking about getting a new ECU. How much that would be?
My car is a 2014 4Matic, non-S model, should I buy an ECU for the S model should I get a "factory remap"?
My car is a 2014 4Matic, non-S model, should I buy an ECU for the S model should I get a "factory remap"?
03-25-2017, 11:27 AM
#65
Senior Member
08-02-2017, 01:50 PM
#66
A new ECU won't help if the car is flagged based on VIN OR engine logs are stored OUTSIDE of the ECU. In other words, you have your tuned ECU, logs are still being written. You put in your new non-tuned ECU with the assumption you won't get flagged when in fact it is most likely the previous log files written by the tuned ECU showing that engine performance was outside of stock.
The next logical question would be, how long are the logs stored and what is the roll period? How long would the new non-tuned ECU need to be used to overwrite the incriminating logs showing your engine was tuned or operating outside of normal parameters? Nobody knows.....but please, somebody try it out and see how it goes. I am more than willing to gamble with your money and your car and your warranty.
The next logical question would be, how long are the logs stored and what is the roll period? How long would the new non-tuned ECU need to be used to overwrite the incriminating logs showing your engine was tuned or operating outside of normal parameters? Nobody knows.....but please, somebody try it out and see how it goes. I am more than willing to gamble with your money and your car and your warranty.
Last edited by alphainfinity; 08-02-2017 at 01:54 PM.
08-02-2017, 02:51 PM
#67
Super Member
A new ECU won't help if the car is flagged based on VIN OR engine logs are stored OUTSIDE of the ECU. In other words, you have your tuned ECU, logs are still being written. You put in your new non-tuned ECU with the assumption you won't get flagged when in fact it is most likely the previous log files written by the tuned ECU showing that engine performance was outside of stock.
The next logical question would be, how long are the logs stored and what is the roll period? How long would the new non-tuned ECU need to be used to overwrite the incriminating logs showing your engine was tuned or operating outside of normal parameters? Nobody knows.....but please, somebody try it out and see how it goes. I am more than willing to gamble with your money and your car and your warranty.
The next logical question would be, how long are the logs stored and what is the roll period? How long would the new non-tuned ECU need to be used to overwrite the incriminating logs showing your engine was tuned or operating outside of normal parameters? Nobody knows.....but please, somebody try it out and see how it goes. I am more than willing to gamble with your money and your car and your warranty.
08-03-2017, 09:57 AM
#68
Senior Member
Ultimately the log files will be overwritten with time. What is that time? I don't think anybody here will know, but I'm sure there's some storage used to hold that data and the older logs will get overwritten with the newer logs. It's always wise to drive around your car normally with new/stock ECU for a while before taking it to the dealer to reduce the risk of them finding anything.
10-07-2017, 02:59 AM
#69
Super Member
Does this "Status 8" apply to the M177 C63S as well?
10-07-2017, 11:52 PM
#70
Banned
12-18-2017, 05:08 PM
#71
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2015 E63 AMG-S, 2005 Porsche 911 Turbo-S
I read this post with interest not just because I have and eventually want to mod my E63, but also the fact that I have professional interest in the ECU and Embedded System design.
I do not mean to counter argue with @Astolfo. But in my world (where we design and sell ASICs and ARM based CPUs), it is rather simple to detect modded Firmware.
All you need (for the techie guys CRC check) is a checksum calculation on NVRAM (FLASH Memory side) where a pre-calculated (non modified version) is stored
and encrypted on NVRAM itself using each CPU's internal ID as its key. Basically, upon power up or reset, the first thing the program can do is to complete a checksum calculation and compare it
to the prestored value and if not a match, it will make a note somewhere and when connected to an external diagnostic it can report it.
Basically, any time a tuner changes values in the base tables (not the trims for those familiar with OBD-II protocol), this will cause a change to the checksum :-(
hence, a detectable ECU. The epoc based encryption(mentioned by Astolfo) to head quarts etc may be done to download and verify new FW versions, but I doubt is done every time MB diagnostic system
(STAR) is connected to a single car.
I do not mean to counter argue with @Astolfo. But in my world (where we design and sell ASICs and ARM based CPUs), it is rather simple to detect modded Firmware.
All you need (for the techie guys CRC check) is a checksum calculation on NVRAM (FLASH Memory side) where a pre-calculated (non modified version) is stored
and encrypted on NVRAM itself using each CPU's internal ID as its key. Basically, upon power up or reset, the first thing the program can do is to complete a checksum calculation and compare it
to the prestored value and if not a match, it will make a note somewhere and when connected to an external diagnostic it can report it.
Basically, any time a tuner changes values in the base tables (not the trims for those familiar with OBD-II protocol), this will cause a change to the checksum :-(
hence, a detectable ECU. The epoc based encryption(mentioned by Astolfo) to head quarts etc may be done to download and verify new FW versions, but I doubt is done every time MB diagnostic system
(STAR) is connected to a single car.
12-18-2017, 05:48 PM
#72
Senior Member
I read this post with interest not just because I have and eventually want to mod my E63, but also the fact that I have professional interest in the ECU and Embedded System design.
I do not mean to counter argue with @Astolfo. But in my world (where we design and sell ASICs and ARM based CPUs), it is rather simple to detect modded Firmware.
All you need (for the techie guys CRC check) is a checksum calculation on NVRAM (FLASH Memory side) where a pre-calculated (non modified version) is stored
and encrypted on NVRAM itself using each CPU's internal ID as its key. Basically, upon power up or reset, the first thing the program can do is to complete a checksum calculation and compare it
to the prestored value and if not a match, it will make a note somewhere and when connected to an external diagnostic it can report it.
Basically, any time a tuner changes values in the base tables (not the trims for those familiar with OBD-II protocol), this will cause a change to the checksum :-(
hence, a detectable ECU. The epoc based encryption(mentioned by Astolfo) to head quarts etc may be done to download and verify new FW versions, but I doubt is done every time MB diagnostic system
(STAR) is connected to a single car.
I do not mean to counter argue with @Astolfo. But in my world (where we design and sell ASICs and ARM based CPUs), it is rather simple to detect modded Firmware.
All you need (for the techie guys CRC check) is a checksum calculation on NVRAM (FLASH Memory side) where a pre-calculated (non modified version) is stored
and encrypted on NVRAM itself using each CPU's internal ID as its key. Basically, upon power up or reset, the first thing the program can do is to complete a checksum calculation and compare it
to the prestored value and if not a match, it will make a note somewhere and when connected to an external diagnostic it can report it.
Basically, any time a tuner changes values in the base tables (not the trims for those familiar with OBD-II protocol), this will cause a change to the checksum :-(
hence, a detectable ECU. The epoc based encryption(mentioned by Astolfo) to head quarts etc may be done to download and verify new FW versions, but I doubt is done every time MB diagnostic system
(STAR) is connected to a single car.
However, with a stock ECU in place properly programmed to the car they would be unable to detect if a "tuned" ecu was previously on the car.
Having two ecu's does work, the car does not know the difference nor does the Star Diag. Most tuners can "clone" ecus so the car specific coding is identical.
A well trained eye could see the ecu has been opened, or drilled depending on the method. There are no tamper stickers, and it's possible to open the cases with 99.9 % perfection.
12-18-2017, 06:27 PM
#73
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2015 E63 AMG-S, 2005 Porsche 911 Turbo-S
Savage212,
You are correct, assuming that the tuner can reprogram the VIN# matching you car into the second ECU (which I believe is programmed nowadays), I agree that we can fool the START program.
Of course, If I was tasked to collect info on modded cars, I could deploy a number of counter-measures that would prevent the ECU SWAP. For example,
each ECU, VIN would be entered in a central Data Base and each diagnostic session would require a positive proof before reprogramming anything new to the car's ECU etc.
But this is getting way too cumbersome and convoluted. I was just expressing some of the industry practices in use today with Consumer Electronics Devices and in no way would claim to know
what MB does or actually has implemented.
You are correct, assuming that the tuner can reprogram the VIN# matching you car into the second ECU (which I believe is programmed nowadays), I agree that we can fool the START program.
Of course, If I was tasked to collect info on modded cars, I could deploy a number of counter-measures that would prevent the ECU SWAP. For example,
each ECU, VIN would be entered in a central Data Base and each diagnostic session would require a positive proof before reprogramming anything new to the car's ECU etc.
But this is getting way too cumbersome and convoluted. I was just expressing some of the industry practices in use today with Consumer Electronics Devices and in no way would claim to know
what MB does or actually has implemented.
12-18-2017, 08:16 PM
#74
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
Is it possible that on the whole Mercedes Benz is making more money in the increased service of modified and tune Mercedes-Benz vehicles? Or do you think they make less money overall because they have to pay out is warranty claims from people who have warranty issues associated with tunes they cannot detect?
my point is that overall is this this Mercedes organization making money, but publicly they have to condemn the modification of their vehicles?
my point is that overall is this this Mercedes organization making money, but publicly they have to condemn the modification of their vehicles?
12-19-2017, 12:20 PM
#75
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2015 E63 AMG-S, 2005 Porsche 911 Turbo-S
Is it possible that on the whole Mercedes Benz is making more money in the increased service of modified and tune Mercedes-Benz vehicles? Or do you think they make less money overall because they have to pay out is warranty claims from people who have warranty issues associated with tunes they cannot detect?
my point is that overall is this this Mercedes organization making money, but publicly they have to condemn the modification of their vehicles?
my point is that overall is this this Mercedes organization making money, but publicly they have to condemn the modification of their vehicles?
