Amg63-

so basically your saying the limiters in a dynojet are not interfering but once the car actually gets on the road, the limiters come into play?

also the numbers you quoted for example 660ft in 3rd gear, do they not change to allow for more by turning traction off? I thought we said earlier that turning TC off raised the limiters. Also are those wheel numbers or crank? Stock these cars are rated at 590tq crank.


it also seems it would be best if the same tuner who made the ECU tune would be who makes the TCU tune as they would need to adjust the line pressure etc. to properly work with their power level which likely will be different than an ECU tune made by someone else, or another solution may just be if they raise them so high that it would exceed the amount of power of even the most aggressive tunes out there for this motor and then it can be used universally.

Sebastian Bird

Wasn't quite sure where to post this but I spoke to GAD today and asked them about there transmission software update. They will not supply it separately only with there stage tuning.

MrkiC63

Thats because it only work with ECU tune. ECU and TCU must be from same tuner.

Amg63-

so, is this because the TCU tune changes the original software of the ECU? If so, that’s going to create some trouble as anyone using a different tuner for the TCU tune would require the original tuner for the ECU to recreate a new file for them as the existing ECU tunes wouldn’t be compatible anymore with the TCU tune provided by a different tuner.

MrkiC63

Thats because the ECU and TCU comunicate with each other. If you do one the other one is not on same level.
There is not much people who can flash your TCU, so the few one really know what to do in ECU to work properly with a real TCU flash.

Amg63-

ok, so does flashing the TCU change the original ECU do a different software version or still stays same?

also, even if it’s different tuner wouldn’t A flashed ECU at least work better with flashed TCU than stock TCU? Stock TCU is using all wrong line/clutch pressures parameters for a tuned car

5soko

flashing the tcu wont change the ecu...

some tuners use false tq values in the ecu, some use true tq values..
you want a tune that isn't lying or under reporting tq values to the tcu, for your tcu tune to operate properly to its full potential.

Amg63-

right, so basically there is still a chance a different tuner for both may work, but there is a risk it may cause issues since it wasn’t made by the same guys and we really don’t know which tunes are reporting true tq values vs tricking with under reporting them.

MrkiC63

One thing is to have tools to flash TCU. The other thing is to know what to change in ECU to harmonize with TCU flash. So you dont have much companys they can do that. One for sure they can is GAD Motors.
With Stage 1 its not really a problem to fool TCU with flase data from ECU. The big problem is coming with Turbo upgrade and big torque numbers. At that point you need a hardware work on tranny and a TCU flash with a good ECU tune.

Amg63-

Thanks for clarifying, makes a lot of sense.

so would you say, that for just stage 1-2 cars, stock hardware on TCU that doing a TCU tune VS tricking it with like most ECU tunes are doing, that there would be little performance to be gained? Like what are we looking at say 0-60 or 100-200? 0.1-0.2s faster here?

Sebastian Bird

I will let you know in march once ive had my tcu tune. After that I will be installing downpipes and a UDP air intake spacer. I've also found larger turbos in Germany that I'm really tempted with!

MrkiC63

Little performance mean 0.1 0.2 seconds yes but that is nothing. The other thing is to release the potential of the torque completly from 3 to 7 gear. You cant fool the TCU limitless.

Amg63-

yes and even from gears 3-7 tricking TCU vs unleashing completely would still result in 0.1-0.2 tenths improvement? This would be for example in 100-200 times.


I guess it’s also because there is only so much you can take off limiters with stock hardware on transmission. With upgraded hardware like clutches, it should be able to do more but at that point there no use doing that for only stage 1-2 cars.

Adi-Benz

Does the E550 use the same transmission as the E63? I am not sure the differences within the 4matic system, but perhaps you guys have seen the thread with the 800whp E550?

5soko

I figured it is time to come back in here this thread from where it started back in October and wrap it up with some more info to conclude the findings I started this thread with.
There is now enough information and explanation on the TCU tuning and what it does and how it works, in this thread, I think to finalize everything we need to know about TQ limits here.

I wanted to post some before and after datalogs of what is happening in the lower gears, and we will use first gear as an example as it is the most heavily limited.
Back in October I posted this thread, after I started using HP tuners and bringing it more mainstream on the forum here and the M157 world, I starting wondering whats going on in the lower gears. And i found boost reduction and throttle closure among other things. And tied it with the notorious TQ limiters in the TCU that has cursed this platform for many many years.
We knew the Tq limits were there, but now we got to see them in action in the form of a datalog, and break it down.

So here is the same car, my buddy Efrains car (CIFDIG), nothing changed between the two runs besides a the Stage 1 TCU tune, First gear, around 3K rpm's:

BEFORE:
Stock TCU: Here you can see as I showed back in October in the first post of this thread, the TCU TQ limits in action, showing boost being reduced and not hitting its target, around 6.3 PSI here, while throttle body was being closed down to 41%.






AFTER:
Here with the Stage 1 TCU tune we see boost at a much higher 12.3PSI, and the throttle body at 100% matching the throttle pedal, releasing alot more TQ into first gear! and not being extremely limited




I hope this information makes it more clear to exactly what is happening before and after now in terms of ECU and TCU interaction.

Here are some dragys to translate the above datalogs into real world performance:

BEFORE TCU tune:







AFTER, Stage 1 TCU tune:





And lastly Here are some videos from Efrain car last night to end it here, where he ran a 1/4 mile time of 10.6! Beast of car!

For anyone who is interested in a Stage 1 TCU tune, I can help in my Northeast region of the country with any member who needs it, and outside of this region, please contact David, our member here @DavesMeanE's specifically for this Stage 1 TCU tune and he can help you out

c3004wife

Any other logs of 1st and 2nd gear? Wondering what the max boost is now with the TCU tune.

brutus_tx

That question is literally answered in the post directly above yours.

c3004wife

Reading comprehension

The question is in direct RESPONSE to the post above mine. I see the 12.3psi number and other data posted. I'm asking for OTHER data points from this or any other car with the new TCU tune.

brutus_tx

Got ya.

I will be doing some logging this afternoon when the weather improves.

NoVAe63s

So any other benefit outside of gear 1 and 2? If my reading comprehension is lacking my apologies, I’m just being lazy and not re-reading the whole thread. I vaguely recall there may be some TQ restrictions in all 7 gears but only is an issue 3-7 once you start getting into heavier tunes and mods? For a bone stocker 3rd and above should already be free of the nannies?

brutus_tx

Okay, I went out this afternoon and did four back to back runs while logging.

I'm on the EC E50 tune, i was running a verified E47 in the tank.
DA was 2200 ft
Air Temp was 85 F
Barometric Pressure was 14.3 psi

Here's a screen shot from the DataZap.me site of one of the quarter mile runs.
I spun through most of first as I was launching on concrete.



1st gear at 4223 rpm the car is making 14.4 psi boost
2nd gear at 6100 rpm the car is making 15 psi boost
3rd gear at 6100 rpm the car is making 15 psi boost
4th gear at 6100 rpm the car is making 15 psi boost.

Basically, the car has access to all the available horsepower in all gears now.
I can light the tires from a roll in first now. I could never do that before.
The dips you see are at gear change where the throttle is retarded purposefully.

Regardless if you are stock or tuned... imagine how a stock car will be transformed if you can have access to 585 bhp stock across all 7 gears... imagine how 1st 2nd and 3rd would feel after the tune?
Now imagine if your car is tuned? The power you make in 4th is now the power you make in 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

I've spent money in the past on questionable mods with questionable results... this isn't one of them.
After the ECU tune, this is the second best "bang for buck" mod I've done.

Amg63-

so is this TCU tune working regardless of which ECU tune you have? For example this TCU tune will work perfectly fine/reliable regardless of being applied to an EC tuned or AMS tuned m157 ECU?!

i was under the impression before that the same company has to make both tunes in order for the TCU and ECU to properly communicate in harmony.

1MavRick

im pretty sure it works independent of the ECU tune. Especially since Brutus mentions using it without a tune...

Amg63-

ok, so I guess that means regardless of using it with a more or less aggressive ECU tune it won’t cause any issues or anything? Just want to be sure this is perfectly fine to use with any other companies ECU tunes besides EC with no Changes that alter the ecu tune already there prior.

brutus_tx

The ECU tune controls the engine, the TCU controls the transmission. They are separate and do not have to be from the same supplier.
Senad tuned a AMS car a couple of days ago i believe with this exact TCU tune. The TCU tune is agnostic with the following caveat... the ECU cannot be falsely reporting lower than actual torque values as this will mess with the TCU parameters.
We can say with certainty that the EC tunes do not mess with torque reporting values.

Think of the Stock TCU as a frigid woman with little patience for shenanigans. At the first hint of a party starting she would shut it down. She wouldn't care if the party was hosted by EC, AMS, RaceIQ, Renntech or whomever.
Now we have a new TCU tune... this frigid woman has discovered tequila and is up to party all the time now... Again, she doesn't care who is hosting the party as long as they are honest and truthful.

The TCU tune being supplied is operating within the hardware limitations of the transmission, just allowing more of it.
To use the same analogy above... lets assume this woman owned a bar with a seating capacity of 200... back before she discovered tequila she may have only allowed 100 people in the bar at any given time... now she lets in 180.... there's still wiggle room on the dance floor. The club is still operating under its permit limit and everyone is having a great time. Tequila consumption has sky rocketed..

Party on....