Talk | MCT 722.9 TCU TQ limiters.
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From: Twin Cities
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I have a ML63 as well, M157 engine, and is considering the TCU tune but everything I've heard or read is about E63s. Please share some info about how this TCU TQ limiters affect my particular vehicle and how it will benefit from the TCU tune. Thanks.
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From: Edmonton
14' E63S
Honestly I would so do a road trip down to NorCal just to enjoy the drive. But with the whole Covid restrictions, that won't happen for a while.
We have a huge mercedes/amg club so I am sure we would have a lot of interest, but let me reach out to the group and see what I can gather.
We have a huge mercedes/amg club so I am sure we would have a lot of interest, but let me reach out to the group and see what I can gather.
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93' 500E, 95' Corolla
For an ML you're gonna see a better/faster start-off, along with all the shift-speed advantages any other car would see. Some of the SUV's have a slightly weaker trans though (just PM me your VIN and I can check it). So if your variant is the less-beastly one, we can just tailor those first two gears to a slightly less aggressive level.
Thanks!
Dave
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From: Twin Cities
Too many to list
For an ML you're gonna see a better/faster start-off, along with all the shift-speed advantages any other car would see. Some of the SUV's have a slightly weaker trans though (just PM me your VIN and I can check it). So if your variant is the less-beastly one, we can just tailor those first two gears to a slightly less aggressive level.
Thanks!
Dave
Thanks!
Dave
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 693
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From: USA
m157 SL63
For an ML you're gonna see a better/faster start-off, along with all the shift-speed advantages any other car would see. Some of the SUV's have a slightly weaker trans though (just PM me your VIN and I can check it). So if your variant is the less-beastly one, we can just tailor those first two gears to a slightly less aggressive level.
Thanks!
Dave
Thanks!
Dave
That is basically what I would want with my RWD car, and I've heard some others with RWD on the forum speak similarly.
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AMG
Stage 1 TCU tune is considered the standard default setup. But any customer can request their own version of increases in TQ limit per gear to their desire when ordering in their spot for the TCU tune
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E63 SL55 996TT C5Z06
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AMG
5soko - How does the TCU tune work if you have different ECU tune maps with slightly different torque and HP values? For example the EC tune for e50 that also works with 93 but the HP and TQ values are much higher on the E50 map.... does the TCU tune raise the limits safely regardless of which ECU map is used??
What will change with different ECU tunes and TQ values, is things like like pressure, clutch clamping force, etc
These are adjusted in force and aggressiveness as due fit, for the given TQ the motor is making at the time. Of course with more TQ you make, higher line pressure, hold pressure and clamp force is what you want, just like complete oem fashion, and the TCU tune appropriately raises and sets this accordingly
Last edited by 5soko; Jun 19, 2020 at 07:43 AM.
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From: USA
m157 SL63
If so, I'm sure they'd like that clarified ahead of time. If it's not the case, then I'd also like that clarified, because I'd be more interested
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In a basic and simple idea, the TCU tune will raise the allowable Tq limit up safely from, for example, Stock tcu 500 ftlbs to tcu tuned 700 ftlbs, in third gear. Now that allowable tq in the TCU is set, it wont change no matter what ECU tune configuration you are running. The stage 1 tcu tune, allows more TQ from the engine, but still has a max cap of how much it will allow for safety. How much TQ you make is tune dependent, but the TCU will have it covered from stock power levels to fbo modded, all the way to the TCU Tuned tq limit that is now raised.
What will change with different ECU tunes and TQ values, is things like like pressure, clutch clamping force, etc
These are adjusted in force and aggressiveness as due fit, for the given TQ the motor is making at the time. Of course with more TQ you make, higher line pressure, hold pressure and clamp force is what you want, just like complete oem fashion, and the TCU tune appropriately raises and sets this accordingly
What will change with different ECU tunes and TQ values, is things like like pressure, clutch clamping force, etc
These are adjusted in force and aggressiveness as due fit, for the given TQ the motor is making at the time. Of course with more TQ you make, higher line pressure, hold pressure and clamp force is what you want, just like complete oem fashion, and the TCU tune appropriately raises and sets this accordingly
So if I understand it correctly, a guy can still drive on the stock ECU with the stock TQ at 500+ (if you needed to use stock ECU) even though you have an TCU tune set up for the higher TQ value 700+ from the E50 tune for example?
Is there a MAX torque value for the w212 / 722.9 trans does anyone know?? Thought I read on the boards somewhere that it was upto 1000 TQ it could handle safely so seems this TCU tune would be playing well within the safe limits at 700-800 TQ
thanks for all the great info 5soko!
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From: Georgetown, TX
93' 500E, 95' Corolla
Is this saying that, with the adjustments @DavesMeanE's noted for the ML63 guy, they can still sign up for the group TCU tune and pay the deposit, but it will end up $1000 more when they get the TCU tune?
If so, I'm sure they'd like that clarified ahead of time. If it's not the case, then I'd also like that clarified, because I'd be more interested
If so, I'm sure they'd like that clarified ahead of time. If it's not the case, then I'd also like that clarified, because I'd be more interested
Thanks!
Dave
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From: USA
m157 SL63
I thought the custom TCU tune was an extra ~ $1000 on top of the stage1 TCU tune price, so I'm wondering whether the ML63 guy for example who may want the milder 1st & 2nd gear setup would owe an additional 1500 after deposit, or an additional 2500.
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From: Georgetown, TX
93' 500E, 95' Corolla
Thanks!
Dave
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From: NYC
AMG
5soko - super helpful thanks!
So if I understand it correctly, a guy can still drive on the stock ECU with the stock TQ at 500+ (if you needed to use stock ECU) even though you have an TCU tune set up for the higher TQ value 700+ from the E50 tune for example?
Yes, Stock ECU can be paired with a TCU tune, and it will still benefit a completely stock car as even first gear Tq limited below what a stock engine can make in TQ.
So the TQ limit is a static number and max cap, but what your engine makes between 0ft lbs and to the TQ limit, is the engines business IT can be stock tq, tune only tq, or FBO tq, until it reaches the TQ limit.
Is there a MAX torque value for the w212 / 722.9 trans does anyone know?? Thought I read on the boards somewhere that it was upto 1000 TQ it could handle safely so seems this TCU tune would be playing well within the safe limits at 700-800 TQ
This value is gonna be pretty wide spread depending on miles, mods, type of ECU tune, type of driving that was and is done. We have seen Healthy W212 4matics take massive amounts of tq with high miles and FBO. As I tell most I flash, warm up the drivetrain properly before agressive use, and change trans filter and oil more often.
thanks for all the great info 5soko!
So if I understand it correctly, a guy can still drive on the stock ECU with the stock TQ at 500+ (if you needed to use stock ECU) even though you have an TCU tune set up for the higher TQ value 700+ from the E50 tune for example?
Yes, Stock ECU can be paired with a TCU tune, and it will still benefit a completely stock car as even first gear Tq limited below what a stock engine can make in TQ.
So the TQ limit is a static number and max cap, but what your engine makes between 0ft lbs and to the TQ limit, is the engines business
IT can be stock tq, tune only tq, or FBO tq, until it reaches the TQ limit. Is there a MAX torque value for the w212 / 722.9 trans does anyone know?? Thought I read on the boards somewhere that it was upto 1000 TQ it could handle safely so seems this TCU tune would be playing well within the safe limits at 700-800 TQ
This value is gonna be pretty wide spread depending on miles, mods, type of ECU tune, type of driving that was and is done. We have seen Healthy W212 4matics take massive amounts of tq with high miles and FBO. As I tell most I flash, warm up the drivetrain properly before agressive use, and change trans filter and oil more often.
thanks for all the great info 5soko!
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E63 SL55 996TT C5Z06
Not trying to stir up controversy at all....just super curious to understand what truly is the MB stock torque limits relative to what these new TCU tunes are raising the limits to.
thank you again for all your amazing sharing and collaboration. Let me know If you can clarify.
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AMG
5soko - hey older post I know, but was wondering can these stock trans TQ limiters you got from Germany be correct considering the stock TQ at the crank per MB (for 2014-2016 US 4matic versions) is 590FT LBS??
Not trying to stir up controversy at all....just super curious to understand what truly is the MB stock torque limits relative to what these new TCU tunes are raising the limits to.
thank you again for all your amazing sharing and collaboration. Let me know If you can clarify.
Not trying to stir up controversy at all....just super curious to understand what truly is the MB stock torque limits relative to what these new TCU tunes are raising the limits to.
thank you again for all your amazing sharing and collaboration. Let me know If you can clarify.
So, yes, even in first gear, MB does not allow the full STOCK tq to be applied.
Let me know if that makes sense.
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From: USA
m157 SL63
Yes, its done often in many trans in the industry where sometimes first gear doesn't allow for full engine TQ even in stock trim. The numbers i provided are straight from the TCU maps in our trans. Those are Crank TQ for the oem limits I provided.
So, yes, even in first gear, MB does not allow the full STOCK tq to be applied.
Let me know if that makes sense.
So, yes, even in first gear, MB does not allow the full STOCK tq to be applied.
Let me know if that makes sense.
It's strange to me that there aren't better gains in trap speed (after TCU tune) on ECU tune cars if the 3rd gear+ actually have such a limit though.
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AMG
I wasn't sure if he was wondering about the low 1st gear, or the high 3rd gear. He could be asking why would the 3rd gear have a value set to above the stock torque number? It could just be that the stock torque was underrated, as people seem to agree it was, and MB knew that.
It's strange to me that there aren't better gains in trap speed (after TCU tune) on ECU tune cars if the 3rd gear+ actually have such a limit though.
It's strange to me that there aren't better gains in trap speed (after TCU tune) on ECU tune cars if the 3rd gear+ actually have such a limit though.
And yes, most of the time there is "underrating", most forced induction engines rated HP is at harsh conditions, high elevation or heat soaked or low octane, so no matter where they go in the world, they meet this target HP. People living in areas from cold weather, at sea level, with high octane levels, get the benefit of the extra hp
I think what were are seeing with trap speeds is the years of ECU tuners who have had to under report their TQ values to get impressive gains for customers, this is why you wont see some members with trap speed gains after a tcu tune. Some do it more, some do it less, but just about every tuner in the market for the M157 does underreport tq to a degree as they had no choice before with no tcu tune, some is acceptable, some is a bit aggressive. You can check engine tq in xentry
If it says your tuned M157 is making 600 FT LBS, than we know someone is under reporting alot.Under reporting might get you by with letting more power under the table of the tcu, but your trans is also operating at this reported low TQ, which causes premature wear, less crisp shifting, slower response, etc etc. Most don't realize how bad it gets until they got back to a stock ecu tune and are amazed how smooth everything suddenly becomes.
Last edited by 5soko; Jul 27, 2020 at 11:11 PM.
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From: Chicago
E63 SL55 996TT C5Z06
I wasn't sure if he was wondering about the low 1st gear, or the high 3rd gear. He could be asking why would the 3rd gear have a value set to above the stock torque number? It could just be that the stock torque was underrated, as people seem to agree it was, and MB knew that.
It's strange to me that there aren't better gains in trap speed (after TCU tune) on ECU tune cars if the 3rd gear+ actually have such a limit though.
It's strange to me that there aren't better gains in trap speed (after TCU tune) on ECU tune cars if the 3rd gear+ actually have such a limit though.
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From: Chicago
E63 SL55 996TT C5Z06
That is normal aswell, my ZF trans from BMW in my F10 535i had a 4th gear rated way above what the stock N55 engine can make. 3rd gear is heavily limited on that platform oddly enough, best guess, it is a problem gear bmw knows about.
And yes, most of the time there is "underrating", most forced induction engines rated HP is at harsh conditions, high elevation or heat soaked or low octane, so no matter where they go in the world, they meet this target HP. People living in areas from cold weather, at sea level, with high octane levels, get the benefit of the extra hp
I think what were are seeing with trap speeds is the years of ECU tuners who have had to under report their TQ values to get impressive gains for customers, this is why you wont see some members with trap speed gains after a tcu tune. Some do it more, some do it less, but just about every tuner in the market for the M157 does underreport tq to a degree as they had no choice before with no tcu tune, some is acceptable, some is a bit aggressive. You can check engine tq in xentry If it says your tuned M157 is making 600 FT LBS, than we know someone is under reporting alot.
Under reporting might get you by with letting more power under the table of the tcu, but your trans is also operating at this reported low TQ, which causes premature wear, less crisp shifting, slower response, etc etc. Most don't realize how bad it gets until they got back to a stock ecu tune and are amazed how smooth everything suddenly becomes.
And yes, most of the time there is "underrating", most forced induction engines rated HP is at harsh conditions, high elevation or heat soaked or low octane, so no matter where they go in the world, they meet this target HP. People living in areas from cold weather, at sea level, with high octane levels, get the benefit of the extra hp
I think what were are seeing with trap speeds is the years of ECU tuners who have had to under report their TQ values to get impressive gains for customers, this is why you wont see some members with trap speed gains after a tcu tune. Some do it more, some do it less, but just about every tuner in the market for the M157 does underreport tq to a degree as they had no choice before with no tcu tune, some is acceptable, some is a bit aggressive. You can check engine tq in xentry
If it says your tuned M157 is making 600 FT LBS, than we know someone is under reporting alot.Under reporting might get you by with letting more power under the table of the tcu, but your trans is also operating at this reported low TQ, which causes premature wear, less crisp shifting, slower response, etc etc. Most don't realize how bad it gets until they got back to a stock ecu tune and are amazed how smooth everything suddenly becomes.
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CLS63 AMG
That is normal aswell, my ZF trans from BMW in my F10 535i had a 4th gear rated way above what the stock N55 engine can make. 3rd gear is heavily limited on that platform oddly enough, best guess, it is a problem gear bmw knows about.
And yes, most of the time there is "underrating", most forced induction engines rated HP is at harsh conditions, high elevation or heat soaked or low octane, so no matter where they go in the world, they meet this target HP. People living in areas from cold weather, at sea level, with high octane levels, get the benefit of the extra hp
I think what were are seeing with trap speeds is the years of ECU tuners who have had to under report their TQ values to get impressive gains for customers, this is why you wont see some members with trap speed gains after a tcu tune. Some do it more, some do it less, but just about every tuner in the market for the M157 does underreport tq to a degree as they had no choice before with no tcu tune, some is acceptable, some is a bit aggressive. You can check engine tq in xentry If it says your tuned M157 is making 600 FT LBS, than we know someone is under reporting alot.
Under reporting might get you by with letting more power under the table of the tcu, but your trans is also operating at this reported low TQ, which causes premature wear, less crisp shifting, slower response, etc etc. Most don't realize how bad it gets until they got back to a stock ecu tune and are amazed how smooth everything suddenly becomes.
And yes, most of the time there is "underrating", most forced induction engines rated HP is at harsh conditions, high elevation or heat soaked or low octane, so no matter where they go in the world, they meet this target HP. People living in areas from cold weather, at sea level, with high octane levels, get the benefit of the extra hp
I think what were are seeing with trap speeds is the years of ECU tuners who have had to under report their TQ values to get impressive gains for customers, this is why you wont see some members with trap speed gains after a tcu tune. Some do it more, some do it less, but just about every tuner in the market for the M157 does underreport tq to a degree as they had no choice before with no tcu tune, some is acceptable, some is a bit aggressive. You can check engine tq in xentry
If it says your tuned M157 is making 600 FT LBS, than we know someone is under reporting alot.Under reporting might get you by with letting more power under the table of the tcu, but your trans is also operating at this reported low TQ, which causes premature wear, less crisp shifting, slower response, etc etc. Most don't realize how bad it gets until they got back to a stock ecu tune and are amazed how smooth everything suddenly becomes.
my only question regarding how the underported tq values work in m157 ecu tunes, is that why won’t it work when trying to use this trick in first gear? Seems like no matter which tune we get, it only starts making more power than stock starting from gears 2+ and that’s why the 0-60 times without a TCU tune is normally never able to get below 3.1-2s. So does this trick not work when trying to trick the ecu in first gear?
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thanks for the insight very helpful info!
my only question regarding how the underported tq values work in m157 ecu tunes, is that why won’t it work when trying to use this trick in first gear? Seems like no matter which tune we get, it only starts making more power than stock starting from gears 2+ and that’s why the 0-60 times without a TCU tune is normally never able to get below 3.1-2s. So does this trick not work when trying to trick the ecu in first gear?
my only question regarding how the underported tq values work in m157 ecu tunes, is that why won’t it work when trying to use this trick in first gear? Seems like no matter which tune we get, it only starts making more power than stock starting from gears 2+ and that’s why the 0-60 times without a TCU tune is normally never able to get below 3.1-2s. So does this trick not work when trying to trick the ecu in first gear?
