Bud Wilkinson

Hello everybody,
It's been a while since I've been on here after the 156 engine head bolt issue I had. Everything is fixed with the engine and even though that was a small fortune, I am still completely in love with this car from behind the wheel. simply the best car I have ever and will likely ever own.

I recently had to do rear brake pads and rotors on the car due to the wear sensor contacting and the rotors being at the min service limit thickness, that was a reasonably priced maintenance issue and an easy job to do.

Having a look around at the car I found that the Front 390mm P030 package, two piece rotor friction rings are below minimum spec and the front pads are getting close to service limit.
When I priced the rotors at my local dealer they were a shocking $1156.00 each and sold only in pairs. EeeK. Now don't get me wrong, I know it's an expensive car, that parts are astronomically priced and the brakes are phenomenal on their worst day.
However I can outfit rotors on all 4 wheels of a current IndyCar for less than the front rotors on this car.
So I did some digging and found a lot of dead ends for Evosport, Stoptech and Centric parts that just don't seem to exist. Performance Brakes seems to have an open slot design rotor that may be great but at a stunning $1849.00 a pair, there is no real value there for me. A few lesser costly suppliers online for OEM parts were found but the best price I found was in the $765.00 each range. A substantial savings but the shipping cost made them prohibitive and nearly as much as ordering locally.

The good news is I have done some digging and ordered a pair of custom made Left and Right handed friction rings for $655.00 the pair. That's right I said friction rings. the hats are fine and the only part of the hardware on my car that I will probably replace is the bolts and jet nuts for an additional $50 - $75. The hats are fine and easily reusable. All the floating hardware looks in great shape so I'll reuse it at least this time. I have done this many times on cars that go much faster on purpose so I have full confidence in this fix. This is a very viable option unless you need floating hardware, then OEM seems to be the only option.

I'll keep you posted and post pics when I get the rings in hand.

Bud

StarvingArtist

Interesting

Tech-Tune

Indeed. Please keep us posted.

Bud Wilkinson

Well I just got back from a road trip to find the P30 package 390mm front rotor friction rings I special ordered had arrived.
First I will point out that I have changed hundreds of friction rings on hats on everything from Toyota Atlantic cars to ChampCar, IndyCar and Vintage F1 systems so I have a lot of experience with this operation and evaluation of the hardware involved.
To replace just the friction rings was my decision and choice. If you don't have the confidence in evaluating the components or completing the swap over, or your evaluation of the hardware indicates it needs to be replaced, you will have to have the dealer units installed for you. I was unable to track down the floating hardware for the swap had I needed or wanted it.
I will say the floating hardware is different from those race only applications but appears to be a Brembo street type setup. I am sure most of the differences are to reduce operational noise. All of mine looked to be in better than average condition. I was able to get a left and right hand pair of friction rings made to the factory units measurements and cross drilled for $650.08. Shipping was $32.41 for a grand total of 682.49 delivered. I could have had them slotted for and additional 16.89 per rotor and a one time $50.00 setup fee but chose to go with the cross drill only. I decided to also clean and reuse my original fasteners as well since they passed my reuse criteria for an IndyCar so I feel they will serve for the life of these friction rings.
These were custom made to factory measurements that I took by disassembling one of mine to properly measure. These things fit like a glove without any hassle whatsoever. I just finished the first break-in run with them a few minutes ago and they perform as you would expect.
Attached are pictures.
Measurements for my rotors were as follows.
Thickness = 36mm (1.417")
Outside Diameter = 390mm ( 15.354")
Flange Diameter = 205mm (8.070")
Eye Diameter or open inside diameter of both faces = 245mm (9.645")
Bolt Circle = 225mm (8.858")
Bolt Hole size = 9mm ( 0.354")
Holes Number = 10
Flange thickness = 7mm (0.2755")
No flange step dim in or out i.e. parallel with outer face.

TWF63

Ok, so if I buy set of this friction rings and I can't reuse original bolts/nuts I would be **** out of the luck. Is that what you saying when you said unable to locate hardware?

Bud Wilkinson

Actually I could find suitable M6 X 1.0 X 30 mm flanged bolts and M6 X 1.0 jet nuts for around $50 for the nuts and $20 for the bolts, that is not the trouble. It's the bobbins and other floating hardware that I was unable to locate. If you need these parts the MB OEM route or one of two more expensive options I found are available.
Google open slot or Big brake kit for these.

Please understand that I am not selling these friction rings. I only wanted to present a more realistically priced solution to replace the 390x36 front rotors on my 2007 CLS63, P030 equipped car from a trusted racing part manufacturer with a proven record.
I strongly recommend that you take an afternoon to disassemble and evaluate your own fasteners and floating hardware yourself and decide if you want to use this option or buy the MB OEM parts.
Forgot to say that I ordered these from Coleman Brakes.

TWF63

Yea, I guess I need to look at how oem is put together. On my bike I have floaters which use washer and circlip on one side and flanged on other. And I can buy those if I need, no problem.
What oem bobbins look like?

Bud Wilkinson

TWF63,
Kind of hard to describe them.
The bobbins have a 6mm bore through their entirety, a 8.85mm dia. x 7 mm long round section that goes through the 9mm holes in the rotor flange. after that the shape is sort of squared off approx. 12mm x 12mm ish, (didn't measure them) and engages some stainless spring steel inserts in the hat. the bobbin is approx. 16 - 18mm deep in that area. there are some other stainless shim/washers that go between the nut and the bobbin and engage the hat inserts on their ends.
If you chose to replace them the bolts are M6x1.0x30mm but use caution that you get a flanged head that covers the 9mm hole pretty well. A SHCS or standard allen head will not work here without using a washer and this is not as the system was designed. Also you should use red Loctite on the fasteners and look up the M6x1.0 standard torque value and don't exceed it. use a criss cross pattern when torquing as well.
I believe these to be a Brembo type system but I can't find the parts seperately so far after a few days of internet searching.

Like I said If you think that these floating components are compromised then a new hat/rotor assembly is really your only option. It's either the dealer, a Brembo Big Brake Kit or the only other option that was a real part and not a dead end, like the EvoSport stuff that doesn't exist, were the Racing Brake parts listed below.

Racing Brake make a full Front and Rear open slot set here with completely different bobbin setup.
http://www.racingbrake.com/Mercedes-...-p/cls63-p.htm
And just fronts here.
http://www.racingbrake.com/Two-piece...ONT-p/2237.htm
Rears here.
http://www.racingbrake.com/Two-piece...EAR-p/2188.htm

These appear to keep the AMG calipers and they sell replacement friction rings for their hats. The open slot is their breakthrough design and looks interesting. The hats are different than the stock hats in that the rotor flange is a center line concept and also looks interesting. These look very slick and high quality on their web page but again are much more money than replacing stock friction rings with the Coleman custom set if your hardware is still servicable.

It takes a lot of digging to find the correct Brembo Big Brake kit for this car and replaces calipers, mounting system, rotors and hats for big $$$ and the rotors are actually smaller than what comes on the car.

For me the Coleman solution was the one that best fit my goal of great replacement parts for much less cash outlay. Like I said in my OP, I can outfit an IndyCar on all 4 corners for less than the MB Front rotors cost.
Attached is my Brake Rotor Set Up Sheet, Solid Mount (the rotor is solid mount and floating is done in the hat) that I sent in for the build. Coleman Customer Service can be reached at 800-221-1851. Ext 120 for Lary (that's the correct spelling) or Ext 121 for Troy. I talked to both at some point and they were both great to deal with.
Keep in mind that the attached Rotor Set Up Sheet was from my measurements of my parts for a 2007 CLS 63 P030 package using MB # 2304211212 OEM Front Rotors.
I would urge anyone to take their own measurements if you have any doubt about fitment. This will also allow you to inspect and evaluate your hardware.

If you don't have a P030 package you still may have 2 piece 360mm front rotors that aren't much less than the 390mm versions. I am pretty certain that Coleman can help you with these as well.

TWF63

Thanks Bud.
I seen brembo H type online, http://www.racetechnologies.com/page3-41/2PieceDiscs
Also seen some from AP racing. I will take one of my out when I get little time and see what I can find. This is good option which I would like to do, have no problem wrenching on it. If we can find rest of the parts it would be perfect. I am with you on pricing for replacement.
What pads did you go with?

RacingBrake

Search no further, visit us for your complete brake solutions including the hard to find brake hardware:

Complete Fastener Kit:
http://www.racingbrake.com/McLaren-T...ware-p/ml1.htm



Or Economy Kit:
http://www.racingbrake.com/McLaren-T...re-p/ml1-e.htm


In case you need to rebuild your calipers, we have all the components you need here:

http://www.racingbrake.com/category-s/7067.htm

RacingBrake offers the most comprehensive two piece stock replacement/upgrade for your Mercedes.

All brakes are designed and built with our 30 years experience and our own tooling with advanced brake technology.

TWF63

Is this kit designed to use oem wear clips (u shaped plates that wrap around carrier)?

RacingBrake

That's the tempered stainless steel in the picture.

They are made for stock components when the original worn out or a new rotor assembly. They are made with proper alloy and heat-treatment.

Racingbrake are the most popular replacement/upgrade for OE two piece rotors made for track intensive communities like in EVO (Mitsubishi Evolution 8/9/10), and Nissan GT-R.

RacingBrake

We are also capable to build a two piece replacement rotors with Carbon Ceramic Discs for ultimate weight reduction, and riding comfort.

If anyone is interested in this set up please post your reply here:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w218/5476...ml#post6090474

TWF63

That is fine, but there is piece missing to be same as OEM. Plates between bobbins and ring carrier. Are your bobbins different dimensions and designed to be used without this plates or we have to reuse stock plates?

Bud Wilkinson

Racing Brake,
Thanks for chiming in here.
Your open slot rotors with center line rotor mounting system look amazing. I am also glad to see your hardware kits as well. I spent days, no weeks looking for components by using my W219 2007 CLS63 P30 and P030 package as search criteria, then Brembo and AP and the hardware never came up for that vehicle. A search on your web site for W219 only shows your 360 x 36 Fronts in the CLS55-P set and a search for CLS63 Does show your 390x36 CLS63-P and CLS63-P-02 360x36 kits but from within the page the hardware kits do not show up. Otherwise I would have ordered at least 20 of the economy kits. A search for P30 and P030 on your site yield odd results. The point being that I didn't find what I was looking for with your search engine and looked elsewhere where I found other fastener sources.

TWF63 is right though that a part seems to be missing from your complete kit picture and the I block looks different. See the picture I have attached for the missing "Horseshoe" wear plate that engages the spring plate and I block and keeps the I block from rattling and wearing the hat. Also the I block looks to have a different design where it interfaces with the rotor. looks more like a T block on my car.

What I really wanted/needed was a more economical stock design friction ring and fastener kit. The ultimate for me would have been the Coleman rotors I ultimately got with 20 of your economy kits for roughly $70.00 above or the complete kit if it had all the parts and fit properly for roughly $170.00. I would have to try one to check the fitment before committing an additional $170.00 to the project.
So also, why not offer a complete rotor kit of 10 pieces or axle set of 20?

The fact that these parts exist is awesome. Racing Brake has a great reputation as does Coleman and If I could justify the expense I would probably get the "Two-piece rotor (Open Slot) - Mercedes SL55 AMG, SL63 AMG, SL65 AMG & Other AMG Front" 390 x 36 units from Racing Brake because it's design makes the most sense to me, replacement parts are available, I believe they retain the stock AMG calipers and the price for the pair is at or less than the dealer for what seems to be a much better designed part. They also seem to come with a set of pads.
However for less than $700 for the pair I have two new rotors on my perfectly fine hats and hardware and have all the stopping power of the original AMG package.

TWF63

Bud,
Is this bobbin we need?
http://prosystembrakes.com/catalog/p...d1ba6b86fa388a

Bud Wilkinson

As this was a bit of an experiment in economical replacement for these components I decided to give the Bosch Quiet Cast #1320 pads a try. For $65.00 I figured if they sucked I could throw them away and get either the MB pads at $320.00 or even EBC Yellow or Red stuff for $100 - $150 later. I even thought about having my friends at Performance Friction or Hawk Brake re-bond one of their compounds to my used backing plates. I mean for $320 the custom option is probably wide open. I think I'll pull the old ones out of the trash and make some calls.
Stay tuned.
As it turns out though the Bosch pads seem fine at new thickness levels for street use. They may have slightly less initial bite for the first half a second after a freeway run than what came off, (kind of unknown at this point), but once a little heat gets in they perform at least as well in bite and modulation as what came off. Dust is still not known yet.

TWF63

More on this page
http://prosystembrakes.com/catalog/i...hp?cPath=31_69

Bud Wilkinson

TWF63,
These are close visually and a good find. They are different in that they have a stud on them and require a nut and washer rather than a through hole for a M6x30 bolt and nut. Clean looking system though.
The fact that the description says "Rear T Bobbin used with rotors having the Brembo style oval mounting hole and 6mm flange" and mine were a 7mm flange make me want to have more full dimensions to know for sure.
Also hard to know if they would fit the hardware in our hats. at $21.50 apiece and $4.25 per nut $0.83 per washer they are a bit spendy too. If these parts are needed I think the Racing Brake assembly or stock parts makes some sense.
One from the other page shows it for an 8mm flange so I would have to make a call on these.

TWF63

Yea, not cheap
So basically we need brembo H type but H part is T.
Are they stainless steel?

Bud Wilkinson

That's the way I see it. Not sure of the metallurgy of the stock bobbins but probably are SS.

RacingBrake

This design has a metal clip insert which is same as Corvette ZR1 CCM rotor two piece that we have determined it's not necessary, so we eliminate it in our hat design design to use standard I-Block.

On the other hand, if you check Brembo OE two piece rotors for EVO and GT-R where owners heavily track their cars most, the standard I-Block is what's used. User can just replace their damaged hardware or buy the replacement rings and new hardware set. The U slots on those hats "do not" have this clip provision.

So if you want to re-use your hats, then these standard I-block will not fit in but you still can purchase those economy kit (bolts, nut & spring) which is what most customers need and are fully compatible.

The reason we don't kit them per rotor or axle is to keep the flexibility for the consumer so they don't have to buy anything more than they need. As we know some dealers wouldn't even just sell just the hardware, you must purchase the complete rotor assembly, not mention just the fastener kits.

For someone like you that are handy and can research, multiple sourcing can save some money, but for others RB's complete two piece rotor assembly "Ready to Install" are still the best value to go.

Thanks

Warren-RB

TWF63

Probably not but I would still like to have them on long run. Hat is aluminum and spring clip will wear in to it and bobbin edge likes to dig in to it as well.
It is all good when new and tight but once ring starts to move more it wears out much faster. At least that is my experience with floating rotors we use on race bikes. Our bobbins are mostly round and half goes in to ring and half in to hat. Hat half would wear out to oval and we would get grove on the side of the hat from washer rubbing.
This square ones should be better for wear. I am not familiar with car rotors and wear so maybe you are right and it is not issue.
I will definitely get new bolts and nuts. Most like rest of the hardware will be just fine.
Bud, did they make part number for this rings you ordered? If not I can just copy your order. Btw. thanks for posting it.
ps. I have lathe and mill so in worse case I can make bobbin or two

RacingBrake

OEM two piece rotors are typically fastened together with McLaren hardware, which in our experience was facilitated for mass production (easier to machine U-slots in Aluminum hat than oblong holes in the iron discs), and is not as effective as our simple 2-pc device, below picture illustrates the actual movement of disc during expansion and contraction in heat cycles:



For the variety of fastening hardware, please refer to our web page here:
http://www.racingbrake.com/Rotor-Fas...are-s/6999.htm

Bud Wilkinson

TWF63,
No part number was made by Coleman as far as I know.
If you call the numbers in post 8 and talk to Lary or Troy they will give you the email address and you should be able to email the same brake rotor setup, solid mount sheet that I attached if you have a 2007 CLS63 or compatable P030 equiped car with 390mm two piece rotors that takes MB Part # 230-421-12-12.
Please understand that I have no idea which cars use that same part #. You will have to do the research but I believe 2006 - 2010 CLS63 390mm rotors are that part number. If you are not positive PLEASE measure your rotors.