Question about upgrading to Big Brakes
08-28-2003, 04:14 AM
#1
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Question about upgrading to Big Brakes
Ok, before you flame back to the stonage... Its just a question. Explanation to help describe why it would or wouldn't fit be greatly appreciated...
OK... since there is controversy in putting C32 brakes on a W208 CLK because of the trailing vs. leading caliper issue... what if... what if we found another leading caliper brake kit...
ie., something like a Brembo big brake kit with a leading caliper setup meant for car XYZ (maybe BMW or Porsche, or whatever). granted, the bolt patterns for the rotors will be different... but these bolts (see pic) make it look like you can just change the center part to one that fits...
would that work??? again, don't flame... rather, just enrich me with the endless knowledge this forum has to offer...
thanks!
OK... since there is controversy in putting C32 brakes on a W208 CLK because of the trailing vs. leading caliper issue... what if... what if we found another leading caliper brake kit...
ie., something like a Brembo big brake kit with a leading caliper setup meant for car XYZ (maybe BMW or Porsche, or whatever). granted, the bolt patterns for the rotors will be different... but these bolts (see pic) make it look like you can just change the center part to one that fits...
would that work??? again, don't flame... rather, just enrich me with the endless knowledge this forum has to offer...
thanks!
Last edited by mmgrad; 08-28-2003 at 04:16 AM.
08-28-2003, 04:22 AM
#2
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or or... how about... if I snag a set of Brembo calipers that were leading calipers on car ABC-XYZ...
Could I mount that on the CLK with the appropriate sized rotor with a 5x112 lug pattern?
Could I mount that on the CLK with the appropriate sized rotor with a 5x112 lug pattern?
08-28-2003, 08:47 AM
#3
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depends on the weather
why not just get the Brembo Gran Turismo kit specifically designed for the CLK ?????
use this brake search for more info
use this brake search for more info
08-28-2003, 11:52 AM
#4
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Originally posted by Luke@tirerack
why not just get the Brembo Gran Turismo kit specifically designed for the CLK ?????
use this brake search for more info
why not just get the Brembo Gran Turismo kit specifically designed for the CLK ?????
use this brake search for more info
So what do you think? will it work?
08-28-2003, 02:13 PM
#5
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depends on the weather
A few things to consider about your request:
Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.
The clamping force of a caliper is the force exerted on the disc by the caliper pistons. Measured in pounds clamping force, it is the product of brake line pressure, in psi, multiplied by the total piston area of the caliper in square inches. This is true whether the caliper is of fixed or floating design. Increasing the pad area will not increase the clamping force.
Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.
Stability and control under heavy braking is at least as important as ultimate stopping capability. All cars, from pickups to Formula One, are designed with the majority of the braking torque on the front wheels. There are two reasons for this - first, if we ignore the effects of aerodynamic down force, the total of the forces on each of the vehicle's four tires must remain the same under all conditions. When the vehicle decelerates, mass or load is transferred from the rear tires to the fronts. The amount of load transfer is determined by the height of the vehicle's center of gravity, the length of the wheelbase and the rate of deceleration. Anti-dive geometry does not materially effect the amount of load transferred - only the geometric results of the transfer. Second, when a tire locks under braking, braking capacity is greatly reduced but lateral capacity virtually disappears. Therefore, when the front tires lock before the rears, steering control is lost and the car continues straight ahead - but this "under steer" is a stable condition and steering control can be regained by reducing the pedal pressure. If, however, the rear tires lock first, the result is instantaneous "over steer" - the car wants to spin. This is an unstable condition from which it is more difficult to recover, especially when entering a corner.
Most mid-engine pure racing cars are designed with 55-60% of the total static load and 45-50% of the total braking torque on the rear tires. These cars feature literally tons of rear aerodynamic down force and the footprints of the rear tires are always significantly larger than those of the front. Most passenger cars are front engined; none of them have any appreciable download and almost all of them have the same size front and rear tires. In extreme cases (front wheel drive) they may have 70 % of the total static load on the front tires. They are therefore designed with a preponderance of front brake torque. Most current production cars feature anti-lock brake systems (all cars should). Sophisticated ABS systems ensure that, under heavy braking conditions - even braking with tires on different surfaces - each tire is braking at something very closely approaching its maximum capacity while the ABS system prevents lock up.
Multi-piston calipers should have differential bores to reduce taper wear. Piston area should be consistent with master cylinder size.
in other (shorter) words if the caliper/system is not specifically designed for your application it is not a good idea
Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.
The clamping force of a caliper is the force exerted on the disc by the caliper pistons. Measured in pounds clamping force, it is the product of brake line pressure, in psi, multiplied by the total piston area of the caliper in square inches. This is true whether the caliper is of fixed or floating design. Increasing the pad area will not increase the clamping force.
Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.
Stability and control under heavy braking is at least as important as ultimate stopping capability. All cars, from pickups to Formula One, are designed with the majority of the braking torque on the front wheels. There are two reasons for this - first, if we ignore the effects of aerodynamic down force, the total of the forces on each of the vehicle's four tires must remain the same under all conditions. When the vehicle decelerates, mass or load is transferred from the rear tires to the fronts. The amount of load transfer is determined by the height of the vehicle's center of gravity, the length of the wheelbase and the rate of deceleration. Anti-dive geometry does not materially effect the amount of load transferred - only the geometric results of the transfer. Second, when a tire locks under braking, braking capacity is greatly reduced but lateral capacity virtually disappears. Therefore, when the front tires lock before the rears, steering control is lost and the car continues straight ahead - but this "under steer" is a stable condition and steering control can be regained by reducing the pedal pressure. If, however, the rear tires lock first, the result is instantaneous "over steer" - the car wants to spin. This is an unstable condition from which it is more difficult to recover, especially when entering a corner.
Most mid-engine pure racing cars are designed with 55-60% of the total static load and 45-50% of the total braking torque on the rear tires. These cars feature literally tons of rear aerodynamic down force and the footprints of the rear tires are always significantly larger than those of the front. Most passenger cars are front engined; none of them have any appreciable download and almost all of them have the same size front and rear tires. In extreme cases (front wheel drive) they may have 70 % of the total static load on the front tires. They are therefore designed with a preponderance of front brake torque. Most current production cars feature anti-lock brake systems (all cars should). Sophisticated ABS systems ensure that, under heavy braking conditions - even braking with tires on different surfaces - each tire is braking at something very closely approaching its maximum capacity while the ABS system prevents lock up.
Multi-piston calipers should have differential bores to reduce taper wear. Piston area should be consistent with master cylinder size.
in other (shorter) words if the caliper/system is not specifically designed for your application it is not a good idea
08-28-2003, 02:33 PM
#6
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Originally posted by Luke@tirerack
in other (shorter) words if the caliper/system is not specifically designed for your application it is not a good idea
in other (shorter) words if the caliper/system is not specifically designed for your application it is not a good idea
Btw, what do you think about people who are using C32 AMG brake kits on their W208 CLK?
C32 is a trailing caliper brake kit
W208 uses leading calipers
08-28-2003, 02:52 PM
#7
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'04 CLK500 Obsidian Black/Charcoal/Berry Red
Luke,
Great post. Does it mean, that it's a bad idea (check the link below)?
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=49955
Great post. Does it mean, that it's a bad idea (check the link below)?
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=49955
