Topshelf

Hey guys, the last few days of driving my '03 C230 Sportcoupe, I've noticed a few awkward shifts from the auto tranny. I was thinking it was my imagination until the drive home from work tonight. I was entering a circle and when I gassed it, the car kinda hesitated for a second then there was a noticeable clunk when the trans downshifted and engaged. I know I'm a worry wart about this car now that the warranty is up, but I still enjoy driving it and it's not really a good time for any kind of trade in. Is this a normal issue? I just fixed that dam $15 pcv hose a few weeks ago, and now this. The entire time the car was under warranty is was flawless. Anyway, I spent a few minutes searching the forum and I saw some posts about a defective radiator. Is that what's causing this issue? That one time was the only time I felt a big clunk, but I'd prefer to figure this out sooner rather than later. If it is the rad, can the tranny be saved? God I hate auto transmissions.

splinter

You may want to try the reset first.

Don't even say the word 'glycol' on this forum...been there. Yikes.

mleskovar

Maybe, but if you don't stop driving it then no. There's a post (either here in W203 or Tech Talk) about someone who explains how they did their own work and saved the transmission.

splinter

One hapless member fixed it himself, along with a transmission flush, for >$400.

DIY radiator replacement

C230 Sport Coup

Waiting for my blackstone test kit..and 10 quarts of liquid gold.
Neither has appeared yet. Meanwhile, it's a little clunky, but hopefully a full flush will restore it.

Topshelf

Dam, can't say that this is all good news. I gave the car to the wife this morning since she only has a 10 mile round trip compared to my 65 mile trip and told her to be VERY easy on the car. Hopefully tonight I can crawl under the car and find out if I'm dealing with this Valeo rad or not. Chances are I am. Read through the DIY and it doesn't look that bad. But I do have 2 questions about it, and sorry if these have been asked 1000 times before.

1) Where are people getting the new rads from?

2) Where's the best place to have a COMPLETE flush done? Should this be something I should have the dealership take care of? Ir am I better off going to an indy shop?

I'm also guessing that we need to use special MB antifreeze and trans fluid?

Just talked to the wife and she said the car felt fine. Is there usually a way people can tell the the rad is starting to go?

What's really amazing is that I have 3 vehicles right now, the Coupe, a BMW and a Lexus. The biggest concern on all 3 of them is the auto trans.

Oh, and I'm going to wait on the ecu reset. Last thing I want to do until I verify it's not the trans is make it hold the gears longer. Which had me thinking during that thread...if everyone is so happy after that reset, then why even have a learning ecu? Seems the factory settings are perfect.

Thanks for the information guys, and please let me know if there's anything else I should be aware of.

Topshelf

Well, I verified that I have the Valeo radiator tonight. Now that step one is complete, how do I find out if there's glycol in my transmission? Not sure how to figure this out. One thing that did annoy me though was the fact that when I had the car in for service about 1.5 years ago, I mentioned that I thought the transmission felt a little odd. Ofcourse they checked it out and there were no problems, but until I read the rad DIY, I never realized that those *******s didn't replace the trans cap with a new one. That red tab is missing. WTF? That's the kind of crap that bothers me. Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

Anyway, now that I'm done ranting, can someone please help me figure out if I do need to get started on the rad replacement. Oh, I wanted to ask, I do not have a check engine light. Does that matter at all?

Thanks

mleskovar

#1...Analyze transmission fluid....if glycol contamination is found then plan to flush transmission as well as replace radiator. If no contamination is found then just replace radiator and continue troubleshooting shift problem.

C230 Sport Coup

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Get a radiator from Mercedes, so you know it's a Behr.
Check the prices locally, or buy it online.
I've also seen them on Ebay.
Search on trademotion + mercedes and you'll find some dealers selling parts online. Duval motorcars in Florida have great prices but they took their site down. You can call and ask for Steve Foster though.
It really just depends on how long you're willing to wait.
I ordered parts from Steve recently, it took forever...but thats ok, I'm stocking up to do a whole bunch of things at once. Then ordered all the tranny stuff and fluid from Autobahn motors online. It took them over a week to process my order, but as the are only 75 miles away, shipping should only take a day. + they have a coupon for $10-20 off if you ask for it, when you order.
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...84&catalogid=0


I called blackstone last week to get the kit...
I don't have the Valeo, but just want to make sure the rad is functioning correctly, before I invest 10 quarts of MBZ tranny fluid, which shipped today. My total parts cost including O-rings, gaskets, and filter is about $200. Just hoping I can extend the life of my tranny.

Rads are about 150-200. Not bad actually.

I don't trust the dealer or anyone else to properly do the job, so
I'm doing it myself.
Once place offered to do a complete flush for 179, but it seems economically impossible for that to be the case, and likely they are not using the correct fluid.
Another member, "Splinter" has done this.
The instructions are in the W203 servive DVD available for 60 bucks from
1800mercedes. Well worth the investment.

Waiting for my blackstone test kit to come in the mail....
It's free btw. The test costs 22 bucks.

Sometime soon when the weather is nice, I'm going to
a. Flush the tranny
b. Replace the exhaust manifold gasket (leaking)
c. Replace the diff oil
d. Replace all the belts
e. maybe do the fuel filter while i'm at it....haven't decided.

Oil was just changed, using my handy drill operated sureflo pump from
boatersworld.com, cabin and air filters done, as are the wiper blades.

Coolant, MBZ recommends using their $30 bottle, but the general consensus around here is that it's repackaged Zerez G-05, which Kragen didn't have but a "real" auto parts store did at $10 a gallon, the kind that carries Redline products etc. You only need one, mix it 50/50 with distilled water. Or at least thats what they used in 2002.

You won't know till you try if your tranny can be saved, but thats the procedure MBZ is using. Read this also if you haven't already.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....9&postcount=59

These pdf's are from the Service DVD. There's links within each place that tell you how to do each thing...buy it.

On the advice of "Splinter" I'm using only 10 quarts, though it calls for 14.
If my blackstone test showed I had contamination, I'd be buying the other 4 quarts for sure.
Also on his advice, I'm not disconnecting underneath the car but at the radiator. Part of my order is a couple of O-rings.
While it looks rather complicated he said he did his in 2 hours..

Maybe I can talk him into coming up and helping me out? He he...
I'll buy the beer.

I do not beleive that the dealer would use 10 quarts let alone 14, at the
15 + a quart they charge, though I got it for about 12.
Should be here tomorrow.

splinter

Excellent information from mleskovar & C230 Sport Coup. They have earned their fanatic status.

Oftentimes I can’t see the forest for the trees. Makes me want to first grab a spanner to solve problems, instead of applying logic and reason when troubleshooting.

Having the correct fluid level is imperative to the proper function of any automatic transmission, but particularly our 722.6xx. Please verify it before doing anything else. Since the clunk and hesitation you experienced was prominent entering a turn, it’s possible that too-low fluid sloshed away from the filter inlet. Doing so would allow the pump to cavitate; therefore hydraulic pressure would be dramatically reduced. Because the locking pin on your fill cap has been fiddled with, it begs the question, “why?” Were any ATF leaks addressed under warranty? The electrical connector O-rings are a know point of failure and have been revised/superceded several times during the model run. Perhaps it’s leaking just enough to have adversely affected the fluid level.


Before throwing parts at it, have a trusted dealership or competent independent technician scan for codes with MB’s DAS. Generic scanners are unable to perform the required colonoscopy of the inner workings. There may well be DTCs stored from the transmission that could be critical to diagnosing the problem(s). They won’t necessarily trigger the MIL because they’re not emission related, but they’ll be in there for retrieval and analysis.

C230 Sport Coup

Just got the mail....My Blackstone kit arrived!

I'm not that worried about contamination, and I'm doing the full flush more as a life prolonging measure. But knowing whats in the fluid, shoud give me a guage as to the condition of the tranny, what metals it contains etc.
For $22 it's worth the piece of mind, especially when investing so much money into tranny fluid!

I wouldn't normally invest so much time helping a newbie, but
Topshelf, it sounds like you have done some searching, but hadn't quite put all the pieces together.
And to me, I can't understand why the BAR hasn't forced a recall to replace all the defective Valeo rads. It's absolutely criminal.
These trannies are used in nearly every line of mercedes cars and trucks, as well as some Chrysler products.
With my car's value dropping below the $10K mark due to MBZ's recent bad reputation, I wouldn't be able to justify the cost of a new transmission at nearly the same amount. I have close to 40 grand into the car, and to me, a Benz is supposed to go forever!

So I'm doing everything I can to keep it in tip top shape, which for better or worse, (mostly for the better) is keeping the grease monkies at the dealerships as far away as possible. So many times, they seem to only succeed in fixing one thing only to break another, and leave it that way.
After driving in to pick up my car, and finding things wrong, I used to make my SA do a QA check before I'd drive there, and more often than not, he'd call back and tell me not to come.
And a lot of things they just do poorly or not at all.

They can make more money selling you a tranny, than telling you that flushing it is a good idea.

I took it in once for the leaky seal at the electrical connection on the bottom of the tranny once, and they replaced some suspension pieces!
Some time later though, I did get it fixed under warranty...at another dealer!

tanktube67

Topshelf

Thanks a ton guys! I really do appreciate all the help. I've been around these forums for long enough to know what it's like when the same questions get asked over and over by newbs, so I did try to find out as much info as I could before posting. It just couldn't have happened at a worse time and I got a bit overwhelmed. I am picking up a 325xi tomorrow morning that I bought knowing it needed a new water pump, stat, pulleys, hoses, and other general BMW "maintenance" items. So I've spent the last 2 weeks researching and prepping my orders and planning on taking all of next weekend as a BMW DIY fest. Throwing this possible major transmission issue into the mix right now just totally screws me up. This is obviously now priority, and I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around how a company can sell a $30k product with a defective part that can cause damage up to 1/3 the total price of the vehicle, and it NOT be considered a recall. I really like the Coupe and would like to simply fix the problem and move on. If I need to invest $400 and a few hours, fine. I just don't need to be sinking $10k into a car valued at around $13k So I'm going to replace the radiator no matter what, and it really doesn't seem that that big of a deal. The flush I'm undecided on. I think a full flush would be a good idea whether there's contamination or not. I'm at 50k, so it won't hurt. The problem is I'd MUCH rather have this done at a shop, but who can I trust? MB dealers definitely don't seem reliable, and I'd be more than a little furious if I paid $200+ and all they do is a drain and fill. But unless I watch, I'll never know. Same thing with a indy shop. Are these guys really going to use the proper MB trans fluid? So I guess that leaves me as the last resort. So erring on the high side, I'm understanding it's going to cost about $460, right?

$200 - New Behr Radiator
$200 - 14 liters of MB trans fluid, 1 gallon of MB glycol, misc o-rings and gaskets.
$60 - MB Service DVD

Few things I'm still uncertain of.

1) After installing the new radiator, do I just do the full flush? Or do I send a sample out first? I don't have any clue as to how bad, or even if there is any damage. Do I just play it safe, perform the flush and wait for the results for my own personal knowledge?

2) I thought about what Splinter said about checking my trans fluid level, but had 2 thoughts on that. First, how the hell do I check something the doesn't have a dipstick? Is this something they sell? And then I started wondering, why would I be low on fluid? I checked, and there is not a drop of fluid under the car. So if it's not leaking, where would it have gone? Makes me lean even more to the contamination theory. If it's easy to check, I'd surely take that route first, just don't have a dipstick. Hmm, maybe I should stff.

Again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything. The car is in lockdown until this is resolved. Good thing I just happen to have a spare car showing up tomorrow.

Topshelf

Right in Spliters post.

Specialty tools:
140 589 15 21 00 ATF dipstick

Topshelf

Well I just spoke with my dealers shop foreman. Funny how they are completely aware of the situation, yet it's not really a big deal to them. Anyway, after a 10 minute conversation, I was basically told that they won't cover anything, and if I do the rad and bring it in for a flush, it's going to run about $500 for the flush! Said the fluid alone would cost $300. He told me that they need to take a bolt out of the torque converter and there's a special tool Mercedes sent them that is needed to do the job. I didn't see that in the trans flush thread, but maybe I missed it? After going back and forth on my limited options, I mentioned that I was thinking about trading it in on a new 3 Series, and he miraculously had a thought that the service manager might be able to help me out a little. Of course he's out till Monday, and I don't even expect a phone call back to be honest. I'm so angry right now. Had I browsed this forum 6 months ago, I could have complained about it under warranty. Oh, I was also informed the MB has gone back to Valeo rads. No more Behrs. Guess we know who has the cheaper rad in bulk. Personally, if I can get them to do a proper flush for a reasonable price, I'll go for that since I just don't need this right now. Not to mention the 6 inches of snow that's covering my driveway isn't going to make it easier. Lastly, they wanted $230 for a new rad, so I guess it's time to do a little shopping on the net. Just so angry.

C230 Sport Coup

Yeh, dealer parts prices are always inflated.
They prob figure 14 quarts at like 20 a quart.
I even tried pricing it at a Chrysler dealer...it was over 16 a quart.
So the online price is very good.

There is NO screw in the TC on 2002 + 722.6 tranny.
It was deleted at some point, as a cost saving measure, hence the need to do the full flush. Ha, special tool.
On the the tranny's with the plug, I think it's either a star or allen head.

Sounds like you need to park both cars till you can get one sorted out.
Valeo? No way
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-M...spagenameZWDVW

Be sure to buy the orings for the rad at the point where the tranny lines connect. I just ordered them, box will be here Mon.
The pn was in the epc, but don't know what it is now,
but the pn for my car was different than Splinter's, as he has a C32.
I can post them Monday when the box shows.
You'll need a new cap for the fill tube, and orings for that too..
I ordered several of those a while back so still have 'em.
I don't bother putting the red snap off thing on...what the point?

Per Splinter's experience I'm going to drain at the top tranny line at rad.
Not underneath the car.
The instructions only call for a full flush if the fluid looks burnt etc.
I'm gonna do it anyway...my car looks better than ever, just need it to run the same! And doing the test, will not only tell water/glycol content, it tells metal content, which is an indicator of wear, gives me an idea if I'm safe to keep driving the car without worrying about the tranny.
It's freakin' pouring outside today! Dammit!

Then I'll just do the pan, and the 5 quarts down the road, per the
WIS, which calls for it every 60K Kilometers, or 35-40K miles.
(and says nothing of a "lifetime" fill. I think thats just a marketing gimmick with little basis in truth)

If you're going to flush and replace the rad, there's no real point in waiting for the test results, but I'd do it anyway, to know how bad it is.

You won't get the proper flush at a reasonable price, unless they cut corners...and you'll never actually know if they did it at all.
It's all about trust. I don't trust any of 'em.
It's all about quantity if you're a shop mechanic. Fail to complete a job in the specified amount of time, get fired. I take my time, do it right.
Double triple check everything, save a ton of cash, and enjoy my beer.

You haven't bothered to tell us where you live?

I'm going to try to get a sample this weekend..
I'll post the results when I get them.
I plan to use a brake bleeder with some aquarium hose attached to suck a little out...then I'll top it back up.
Oh, can't do it this weekend...gotta wait till I get the fluid. Damn.

You're going to wind up spending 500 total with the rad, thats still at least 500 less than the dealer will charge.
When you order your box of stuff, get 4 new coil packs too.
They're about 35 online. Much more at the dealer, and seem to have about a 50K life before you get misfires and CEL's and just plain fail.
Trust me on that...I know what I'm talking about.
It's the #1 PIA problem these cars have.
They sit on top of the plugs, get cooked...
and I absolutely guarantee...around 55-70K they will fail.
And they are easily done about 5 minutes each.
Do the belts too, and you're good for another 50K miles.

Get some oil filters, cabin filter, air filter, and wipers while yer at it too..
sounds like it due for all that.

C230 Sport Coup

You know it occurs to me...if you don't have any contamination, all that would be a waste of money. There's an express option on the blackstone site,
maybe do that.
Could your Hesitation might be due to misfire?
If so, it might be one of the coils I mentioned...
not all Valeo's are bad, but for sure I'd replace it anyway.
At first the misfire isn't bad enough to throw a code...
but gradually it goes to that. And when it does, the computer turns off the fuel to that cylinder, and you end up running on 3 cylinders...

splinter

Be that as it may, you’ve gone above and beyond anyone else to help a fellow enthusiast.

Kudos and peace, bro.

Topshelf

C230, thanks for all the help! I see your point about the test. Couple of questions though. If I swap out the radiator for now and drive the car, then the test comes back with contamination, will I be damaging the new radiator? Also, will the flush clean out the radiator if I do drive for a week or two first, or is that not a concern? I'm guessing that I can get the 3oz of trans fluid just by disconnecting one of the atf lines at the rad during the swap? Like you said, the rad needs to get swapped no matter what, I just don't know if it's worth driving the car while I wait for the test. I didn't see that express option on Blackstones site so I'll call them Monday and see if there's a way I can get a faster turnaround. If so, then I'd prefer to wait on the result before proceeding with the flush since that could save me a lot of money right now. I guess I either need to get moving on that test asap, or just decide to do the full job. What I'm really thinking I might do is install the rad, then just do a pan drop, filter replacement and fill while waiting for the test. Might be my best option, though it does seem like I'd be doing 75% of the entire job.

Anyway, could you clear up a few parts for me? You mentioned a few that I wasn't aware I needed. Here's what I thought I needed for just the rad replacement.

Radiator
ATF line seals x2
Coolant line seals x2
Coolant 1 Gallon

But you mention a new cap and o-ring for the filler tube. Why would I need a new one of each? Isn't that reusable?

Might just hit the dealer for the o-rings and pan gasket as I don't see that on the site that I have everything else lined up on. I also need to pick up some new rotors and pads as they are due and inspection is up in March, so I'm going to hold off on those coils, though I'm definitely going to make a note of it. Funny thing is all this insanity is based off of 1 bad shift. lol

Oh, the good news is that the 325xi I picked up today is in better mechanical shape than I originally thought, so it's completely fine to drive while the C is down. Infact, fine to drive is an understatement...what an awesome car!

Again man, Thank You! You've been a real life saver here.

Oh, I'm located in Bucks County, PA.

Topshelf

Just wanted to update this...

Dealer actually called me back this morning. I really wasn't expecting that. Then he said that they want to help me out as much as possible. He stated that they couldn't cover everything, but they want to get the car in and do a contamination test. From there we can talk about options and prices he said. He's aware that I am about to do the radiator and fluid myself, so I'll be very intersted to hear just how much "help" they are going to give me. The call back really surprised me, and if things go well, this just might put a used SLK350 back on my list of upgrades next year.

NG C-Klasse

Sounds like they just want to pony up some money out of you..I may be wrong, but this sounds like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

This worked for me:

https://mbworld.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=227090

Topshelf

Don't worry, that's something I've thought of too. But all their going to do is the contamination test, then call me and we'll discuss it from there. I can just drive it home and get back to my own thing if needed. Plus this saves me from having to get a test out to Blackstone. But my thought is that they see a mid 30's couple with a 5 year old Benz that was purchased new, and they are just trying to keep a potential upgrade customer. And they would be right in thinking that. We're already talking about upgrading to a 2 seat sports car which puts 3 on my list. And after driving our new-to-us 325xi around all weekend, the Z4 coupe is looking more interesting.

Topshelf

Talk about a surprising morning...Dropped my C230 off at 7:30 this morning for the glycol test figuring it's good to know at the very least. And just got a call at 9:00 from the foreman. Glycol test shows that there is contamination throughout the system above the max level, and MB is covering the entire repair. New radiator and full system flush will cost me $0 and should be done today. I can't ask for much more than that. Of course I don't know how bad the internal transmission damage is at this point, so I think it might be in my best interest to start considering an upgrade over the next few months. But that's something I'll worry about once I get the car back. Although I'm not very happy with the cause of this issue, I can't thank Keenan MB in Doylestown, PA enough for standing behind their product.

splinter

Couldn’t have even hoped for a better resolution than that. Nice!

mleskovar

That's great Not to sound like a spoil sport but this is a long term known problem that they should have rectified long before it reached the stage it's in now. The TSB on the radiator is almost 6 years old. Also, the only reason they're picking up the tab is because MB is paying them to do it. Hopefully the transmission hasn't been damaged too much.