SL55_Forever

Anyone know a quick easy way to tell if a Mercedes has an ECU tune without driving it? Does STAR show such information?

My buddy who's a dealer in the east coast was in an auction and saw a modded (wheels, bodykit, paintjob) SL600TT but he couldn't tell by starting it if it was ECU tuned...

Diabolis

Not really. Most tunes these days are written so that they are undetectable using "ordinary" means. I don't think that anyone at the dealership level would have the tools to analyze the files themselves. What they do in cases of engine warranty claims is dump the ECU code and send it to the engineers in Germany, who will have a look at it to make sure it hasn't been modified or tampered with (which would void your warranty). With most tunes you can't tell using STAR.

shardul

iTrader: (1)

ECU has to be removed from the car and read / analyzed on the bench to see if it is modified

AMG6.3

I believe it is very easy for dealership to see if car has had ECU reflashed if they wanted too. They don't need remove it to determine this.

SL55_Forever

Details? I believe someone mentioned it would have to be sent to Mercedes Germany to read ECU.

Diabolis

The dealerships can read diagnostic codes or reflash an ECU, but they certainly don't have the tools and skills required to actualy look at an ECU file. Most of the time they don't need to physically remove the ECU either - they just need to read it (which they can) and send the data file to Germany to be analyzed, but as I said, it's only done when MB is on the hook for an in-warranty expensive engine repair and they want to make sure it hasn't been tampered with and made to operate outside of the design parameters. There is absolutely no value in having the capability to provide any tools or training of the sort at the dealership service level.

ToXicXxX

Certainly not. We bench them and pull files, not too difficult.

Easiest way to tell if one is tuned is to pull a copy of the map and look for copyright information. Most tuners will burry who tuned the car inside of code. You can also compare the map to a stock map, will be fairly evident.

Diabolis

Woah... that's a rather general statement that is far from being universally true.

Most pre-canned tunes these days (at least for the various in-warranty P-cars coming to the shop - and AFAIK for the C63 from what I've read from various sources that know about it a bit more than I do) are written to be more or less stealthy. They don't modify the entire file - they only modify certain parameters within it and recalculate the checksum. Can you pull the ECU or simply extract the code form it? Sure - that's the easy part. Can you then have a look at the code and tell me whether it has been tuned or not? Not so easy.

At the very least, you would need to know what the OEM code for that particular car looks like, which portions of the file correspond to what (what is the actual ECU code or tables that govern how much fuel you squirt and when you ignite the mixture for any given set of input parameters, and what are just learned values and adaptations). We're not talking about a Racing Dynamics or Dinan chip here in my old E30 M3. There's no way that you can even tell that I've completley overwritten the LH & EZK tables in my '89 928GT with a JDS Shark tuner, let alone analyze the code on 30-year-old newer car. It's a tad more complicated than that.

I don't know what you do and where you work, but I do know that after being a die-hard track junkie, extensively involved with pushing the performance limits on various BMWs, Audis and P-cars over the last fifteen years, tuning my own and others' old-generation Porsches and mid-2000s Audis, talking to hundrerds of BMW and Porsche owners at various track events, having dealt with the top meachincs at probably two dozen performance shops that specialize in one particular brand or another and being involved with an indy Porsche shop, I have yet to see ANYONE that is able to do what you claim. Yes, there are people that build race cars and are indeed able to properly tune them from scratch - my own P-car mechanic included, who btw was the master crew chief and built every engine for people like Scott Goodyeard when he was driving in the Porsche 944 Turbo Cup, worked on various other racing Porsches driven by people like Hans-Joachim Stuck and as a technical scrutineer for various racing series - but even the guys in his specialist, P-car-only shop can't simply look at an ECU file on an otherwise stock-looking car, download the code and say "yeah, it has a tune". So - again, I don't know what you do, but unless you or your guys have worked in Affalterbach or maybe Renntech as the actual ECU tuners, I highly doubt your previous statement is true. Can you pull the ECU from my E30, dump the code if you have the tools and and see if it says "Racing Dynamics" or "Autothority"? Sure. Can you download the ECU code from my 997 C4S and tell me if it's been modded? I don't think so.

I mean no disrespect, but it simply isn't universally true. It may be in the case of this partular car, but not in the general sense. And, from what I know about MB's internal operations, the delaerships don't have either the tools or the knowledge to look at the ECU code itself and say whether it has been fiddled with or not. If they need to verify that it hasn't been tampered with, it gets emailed to Germany.

ToXicXxX

We have most stock maps for cars on file, so it is indeed fairly easy to compare the mapping. We pulled a customer's ECU from a C63 and found Renntech copyright buried in it, they want you to know what you've found it would seem. I'm not exactly at liberty to disclose how or what we use to do/see this kind of stuff (mainly because I'm not a sponsor, and that will probably be construed as advertising), but with the right tools it's not too tricky.

You could also check the flash counter if the ECU supports that (Audi being the worst for that right now, using it to assign TD1 status to cars).

Mercedes is still one of the easiest cars to tune, due to almost no security. The only PITA is that the newer cars have double sided ECU's that are "fun" to dismantle. As of right now new Audi S4 SIMOS ECU's are impossible to access (2014-15), and BMW Tri-Core non diesel cars (diesel was just recently cracked and established as safe) are also impossible to crack (F series, and N55 powered X's). I've heard some groups are getting into F series cars, but they are still teething, so to speak. Not something worth risking until the development has reached a safe point.

These days a lot of cars tend to share similar ECU's, notably, Bosch ME 7.X.XX. Which are by far the easiest ECU to gain access too.

I'm most versed on BMW, but I'd like to think I can hold my own on any of the big euro brands.

Diabolis

You an I should probably have a chat over some scotch.


The portable tuners that people here use on their C63s generally do no increment the flash counter. And, as of last summer we can unlock and reflash the SIMOS 8.5 ECUs on the B8.5 Audis at the shop.

ToXicXxX

Oh we can do the 2009-2013. But the 14 has different pinout/board layout Try one, and you'll see what I mean. 8.54 I believe it is. If you do know the points on the 14... PM me them!

Had issues with a 2009 A4 3.2 V6 as well... It has a SIMOS in it, was able to pull the data, but not write or unlock OBD on it. Not a common engine at all, I think only STASIS and GIAC have mapping for it.

You're not from who I think you are eh..? P...

Diabolis

I don't know who you're thinking of, but I have never worked in the automotive industry nor am I personally affiliated with it aside from a small invstment in a local P-car shop where they essentially work on my cars for a more affordable rate and where I've been known to hang out. I am just a die-hard car nut, track junkie and an engineer who likes to know what makes things tick. That's all.


P.S. I think MTM has something in the works too for the 2014+ Audis but it's not released yet and at this stage Horchaus won't tell me much. AFAIK I had the only MTM-blown S4 in Canada... and it was a US 25quattro to boot.