What I am about to reveal is common knowledge in the wax industry but seldom exposed to the public.

Ever wonder why bird droppings are so hard to remove the longer they sit on your car?

Or just the opposite, rinse off so easily?

Most natural wax used in automotive products comes from trees, A popular type is carnuaba. People like it because of it's ability to get rock hard.
These hard waxes offer a small degree of protection over softer waxes.

They last longer and are harder to remove. People who use these waxes suffer the most from bird droppings left sitting on their car.

The reason is very simple, so simple most people don't put the two and two together to realise the cause.

Birds eat tree seeds, leaves and fruit. They have a system filled with acids designed to digest these things.

The droppings are liquidfied by the acid which continues to work on your wax once the droppings comes in contact with it.

The wax on your car will be eaten into and the bird droppings will begin to mix with the wax almost bonding the two together.

When the droppings are removes there is a foot print left by the droppings that is etched into the wax.

Depending on how hard your wax is will determine how hard it is to get rid of the droppings. At this point the hardness of the wax works against you.

Non wax products are not effected the same way. Generally non wax products do not provide a base for bird droppings to hold onto and they leave nothing for the droppings to blend with.

On a side note, Tree sap is a form of natural wax, this attribute helps it stick to the paint that is why it takes some effort to get it off your car.

 

[Ever wonder why bird droppings are so hard to remove the longer they sit on your car?]

The longer the acid is allowed to sit on a surface the more time it has to permeate the paint protection and the clear coat. Reactivity - when you have an acid + moisture +oxygen + ozone all of which equates to a highly concentrated acidic solution, add heat (reactivity) to this equation, and you have the causes of pitting, a concave indentation on the paint surface. Heat and water act as a catalyst (reactivity); a vehicle paint surface temperature of >90.oF creates a very aggressive reactivity of the Alkaline, Uric Acid and Ammonia. This will cause surface etching, so they should be removed without delay. In this case, paint care not only serves aesthetics, but also helps preserve the vehicles.

[Most natural wax used in automotive products comes from trees, A popular type is carnuaba. People like it because of it's ability to get rock hard.
These hard waxes offer a small degree of protection over softer waxes]

A hard or soft wax have the same resistance to acidic bird excrement...very limited

[Generally non wax products do not provide a base for bird droppings to hold onto and they leave nothing for the droppings to blend with]

The acid permeates the polymer sealant and etches the clear coat it doesn't need a 'base' to hold onto
Be cognizant that there are no polymers, nanotechnology coatings or waxes that are acid-proof; they all only offer short-term resistance. The most pertinent factor is to have a layer of (sacrificial) protection between the acid and your paint surface. The second is to ensure that is removed and any residue is neutralized as soon as possible.

For added protection apply an organic wax over the polymer sealant, as this acts as a sacrificial barrier and by washing the vehicles paint surface plus the reapplication of the sacrificial barrier on a regular basis.


“Bird Excrement” - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...llutants.html#

 

Good information about acids. TOGWT
However automotive paint is not effected by bird droppings like wax.
It takes a different type of acid to etch into paint.
As we know there are acids we come into contact with every day, mostly in our foods. Our systems are designed to handle these acids. Hot sauce and soda pop are two common ones.
The point is, all acids do not have the same effect on all materials, even acids that are considered extremely corrosive may have no effect on certain materials. Glass is one material acids are stored in because of it's resistance to acidic corrosion

Car manufactures have known about bird droppings for years, longer than they have known about UV rays. Modern automotive paint is designed to cope with those elements it commonly comes in contact with.
If you want to etch into paint, a couple of ways are to drop a egg on it or pour some brake fluid on it, now you got acid that will effect paint and clear coat.

You cannot protect wax with more wax, You will just end up with a harder job of cleaning when the acid begins to eat into the wax.
The more layers of wax you have on a car, the deeper the etchings can go.

As for autopia.org, I don't consider them a credible source of information as they are known for:
1. Banning members who don't agree with their conclusions
2. Spreading bias and misleading information.
3. A history of infecting computers with malware and spyware.

I value your input but I don't waste my time on autopia anymore. I would never recommend it to anyone I was honestly trying to help.

 

Bird excrement consits of Uric acid , C5H4N4O3 [a diprotic acid , thus in strong alkali at high pH it forms the dually charged full urate ion, but at biological pH or in the presence of carbonic acid or carbonate ions it forms the singly charged hydrogen or acid urate ion as its pKa2 is greater than the pKa1 of carbonic acid.

And your hypothesis is that paint and or wax is resistant to these acids?
There are no polymers (inc clear coat paint), nanotechnology coatings or waxes that are acid-proof; they all only offer short-term resistance.

[The more layers of wax you have on a car, the deeper the etchings can go]

This statement doesn't make any sense and there is absolutely no scientific basis for it

Autopia changed hands some years ago and is under a totally different management. The original owner David Byron sold all rights to it to 3D .I have my own section (TOGWT® Autopia Detailing Wiki - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...yperlinks.html) within this forum

 

Automotive acrylic paint is basically plastic. Plastic is used as a container for several corrosive acids, You can verify this at your local hardware or just look at the battery in your car, It has a plastic case and it is filled with acid.
As I said before, different materials have different reactions to acids, all acids do not have the same effect on all materials.

Paint is not effected by bird droppings like wax is.
Just as paint is not effected by soap like wax.

As far as scientific basis for the layer statement.
It makes sense to anyone who will take the time to reason.
The foundation for that observation is the fact that when layers build up on a surface they increase depth. The deeper the wax layers the deeper the acid is able to eat into it.
The depth of the wax is negligible but it becomes thicker as it it layered on, making a stronger foundation for the acid to blend into.

 

"There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers" - Anon

You obviously have far more experience than i do, so I'll give way to your superior knowledge of waxes, polymers and acids

 

I don't know the extent of your knowledge. I am not trying to challenge it, as I said I value your input.
I am pointing out basic errors in your theory about acids.
I don't profess to know everything and I don't know anyone who does.

I do know what I am talking about when it comes to bird droppings on natural wax and acrylic paint.

This is ment to be a sharing of information, between interested minds. You don't have to agree but you could put it to the test and see for yourself.

As for the comment from the new guy Pepe
At minimum a 6th grade reading comprehension level is necessary to understand what is being said here. Judging by your comment you have not reached that level of reading ability. There is an intellectual gap here that you are ill equiped to cross and It is pointless to try to communicate with you on your level. Goodby.

 

What is your guys professional take on "Perma Plate"? Any good? Reasons?

 

I am not familiar with perma plate.

 

Lifetime Paint Protection

Xzilon, Simonize, Perma-Plate, DuPont PTFE™, are a few examples of this type of product.

There is no polymer, synthetic or natural wax, or after-market product available that can provide a five year or lifetime protection to a paint film surface; read the fine print in the contract offered by car dealerships. PPG / Mercedes-Benz invested a lot of money in R&D for their nanotechnology 'CeramiClear' coating that is considered the longest lasting automotive coating to-date, but there is no 'lifetime' warranty given

There is normally a clause that states you should return the vehicle for a "maintenance" application of the product (at 3 or 6 months intervals) failing to do this will void your warranty or the fine print will basically exclude every condition you could claim against

The primary protection provided for a modern water-based colour coat is a polythene paint that has a thickness of (127 - 178 µ) comprise a Primer coat of 2Mils (50 µ) a Colour coat of 1-2Mils (25 -50 µ) and Clear coat 2-3Mils (50 - 75 µ) An applied paint protection product is the entire barrier that provides protection for automotive paintwork besides the clear coat paint and this renewable barrier is probably less than 0.001Mil (0.0254 µm)

While it’s true that a polymer paints melting point is 350oF +, it is still subject to evaporation and erosion by the elements and vehicle washing. However its durability is approximately five or six months.

The technology for a lifetime protection for a vehicles paint film surface does not currently exist. Most dealerships rely on the fact that few customers read the fine print on the contract; it usually states that it must be reapplied every 6 months and every 3 months on darker coloured cars (for which a service charge will apply).

While it will not provide ‘lifetime’ protection Optimum Polymer Technologies Opti-Coat™ has been applied and tested with a real life durability of ~ 3 years. This semi-permanent coating pre- polymer resin cross links and forms a continuous film on the surfaces, it also contains ultra violet (UV) protection.

Its application is similar to that of a single component Isocyanate in that it forms an approx 50-76µ thickness clear coat finish.

 

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." - Anon

Maybe he does have more knowledge than you, considering you've been caught red-handed plagiarizing the majority of your content:

https://mbworld.org/forums/buyer-sel...bad-buyer.html

You were banned on other forums for this, a simple search will yield such info.

 

There is some discussion on clear coat that may be relevent.
Some people seem to think clear coat and paint are created equally. they are not.
The clear coat is offered as a after market product because it is not as strong as the paint it is designed to protect and has a lowered life expectancy, It is not designed to be as strong or last as long.
The dealer will offer it to you but the factory assumes no responsibility for it's performance.
The dealer will assume limited responsibility.
Your paint is another story, It has a factory backed warranty.

What clear coat it made of can vary also, as well as how it is applied.
Generally all clear coats break down within a few years.
The break down is gradual and due to the drying out of the clear coat allowing it to become permeable.
When this happens it becomes vunerable to absorbe any liquid comes in contact with it.
It provides a base for bird droppings, and other contaminants to bond too.
it will dull, chip and fall off of large areas on the top of the car first and later the sides.
This is a combination of the effects of age and weather.
Bird droppings take advantage of the faults in clear coats, but are aided by the natural wear process which cause the clear coat to break down.

I would never advise anyone to get an aftermarket clear coat.

Most major problems with paint are a result of aftermaket product use.
The worst offenders are products designed to stick to the paint and require removal.

The number one product that leads to the most damage is wax and second after market clear coat.

The damage from bird droppings on wax is immediately. No other product breaks down as fast.

If bird droppings are a problem, stop using wax, find a more reliable product.
One that is advertised to resists the effect of bird droppings.

If a product does not mention protection against bird droppings, it probably has non.

 

Sidwynder,

Um, I am not a detailer or even a professional within the automotive industry and I know with 100% certainty that manufacturers have been putting many layers of painted on clear coat for many years now that will last beyond the life of the car with proper maintenance. I think your information may be slightly outdated. I do not know of any people that apply an "aftermarket clear coat" other than maybe the people who use 3M Clear Adhesive Protection.

Damian

 

Not to mention (as a pro detailer) the number of bird droppings I have seen that etched fresh unprotected new cars.

Is he really talking about Single Sage paints? I couldn't make it out.

 

3D took over 3 years ago.

THE only dedicated forum out there where you can get unbiased answers.

Autopia is not regulated in any shape or form.

You can ask about ANY brand, ANY product, and write a negative review of 3D/HD products. It will not be removed.

See if you can do that on the forums that you recommend.

 

Hi Damian
My understanding is this,
Modern automotive acrylic paints do not need a clear coat. Nor are they applied in multiple layers.
Acrylic paint is very thin, thinner than the primed surface it is applied to, it's shine or gloss which covers the surface is even thinner
Acrylic paint is densely opaque and produces a deep reflective shine, so much that people say the clear coat is built into the paint.
However there is still a thriving aftermarket clear coat business.

My focus is on the effects of Bird droppings on Common Wax.

You can put that to the test yourself. You may not have a problem with bird poop but it is a serious issue for others.
This post is to help keep people from messing up their paint jobs by focusing on the real problem which is wax instead of the paint job.

 

Hi Tom
Professional detailers see some strange things, I am not challenging your experience or your knowledge.

While I am not a professional I have noticed the effects of Bird droppings on waxed cars creates a problem that unwaxed cars do not have.

The only people who have a problem removing bird residue are people who persist upon using old fashion paste and or cream wax.

If Bird droppings etched into paint, there would not be a car on the road that would not have battle scars.
I have never seen a bird drop etchings that remained after the wax was removed.

 

Tom
On this issue, you don't have a clue, Tell that to someone who has not seen first hand how they treat their members, or the reputation for banning members who don't sing with the choir.
Lets not forget the malware and spyware episodes where they infected thousands of computers.
That is a useless childish forum, you can have it.
Your association with it is not a plus.

 

I have been a member of Autopia since 2001. I think I have a clue.

You either not reading the replies, or you just don't want to hear it. Either way, Autopia was sold to 3D 3years ago.

It is the only dedicated detailing forum out there, that is not censored.

The info you read there is the real deal.

People join Autopia, because they can talk about all detailing subjects and products. There is no other forum like it.

To call the top detailers from around the world "useless" is very disrespectful on your part.

You should really re read your own advise that you take the time to type up, because they make absolutely no sense. It really seems that you lack even the very basic understanding of what causes marring.

If you are interested, I would be very happy to educate you about how to keep your paint swirl and mar free.

Enjoy your day please.

PS: Please tell me what forum you recommend with useful info where you are free to talk about any product? Thanks

 

quote=Tom@3dproducts;5251474]I have been a member of Autopia since 2001. I think I have a clue.

You either not reading the replies, or you just don't want to hear it. Either way, Autopia was sold to 3D 3years ago.
The same posted garbage, attack posts, and constant promotion of the porter cable and optima wax, same simple minded "I know more than you ever will mentality", same ancient outdated advice. I don't see a difference

It is the only dedicated detailing forum out there, that is not censored.
It is the only Biased detailing forum out there that bans people by the droves, primarily for having a difference of opinion. I call that censorship.

The info you read there is the real deal.
I am sure you believe that but, I know better. A person would have to be totally brainwashed to believe everything they read on Autopia.
Their only purpose is to push their sponsors products no matter how crappy they are and they will join other sites to try to get new members with that "we know it all at autopia" foolishness.
It's a sell site with one sided information.

People join Autopia, because they can talk about all detailing subjects and products. There is no other forum like it.
That is true, there is no other site that bans members that want to talk about detailing like autopia.
There is no other site that purposely infects members with viruses and malware.
There is no other site that encourages members to join in and verbally attack anyone who has a different view and ban them if they don't submit.
There is no other forum where the members think they are all experts, and feel justified when they talk down to others.

To call the top detailers from around the world "useless" is very disrespectful on your part.
Those are your words,
I don't know these "detailers arount the world", but I do know Autopia and the negative attitude that exists there.
I'm talking about the fools at autopia who join the forums and act like they are gods gift to detailers.
All they do is parrot the same obsolete information.
It is like a broken record or a 24 hour infomercial.
Autopia as a trustworthly site is a oxymoron.
Until autopia cleans up the garbage posts and allow discussion of products they don't sponsor they are a obsolete waste of time. It makes no difference who owns the site.

You should really re read your own advise that you take the time to type up, because they make absolutely no sense. It really seems that you lack even the very basic understanding of what causes marring.

Classic autopian, "you know it all", and I don't have any understanding.
Do they clone you guys or what?

Now I make no sense.
I lack basic understanding of how to mar a paint job with water?

But you don't think you can mar paint with Clay or polish, or by buffing it or stripping off old wax.
Which is more abrasive?
but you think I have a lack of undrerstanding?
What I do understand is that you are promoting a lot of products and processes that are unecessary potentially damaging to the painted finish. I understand you want to sell your products no matter what harm it causes.


If you are interested, I would be very happy to educate you about how to keep your paint swirl and mar free.

Once again that "Holier than Thou" attitude
I don't have a problem with swirls, I never have. I don't use wax. buffers, clay or polish on my paint. I have never had to strip anything off of it.
I learned a long time ago about the folly of putting something on a paint job that you have to constantly remove and replace.
What you need to do is stop acting like you have all the answers and take notes from others who have not been brainwashed by autopia as you have.

Enjoy your day please.

PS: Please tell me what forum you recommend with useful info where you are free to talk about any product? Thank

Any non associated Autopia site will let you voice your opinion about a product or proceedure without getting attacked and banned.
I am interested in new products that are trulely new not just repackaged.
Autopia is all Repackaged, warmed over, yesterdays leavings.

Now in classic Autopia fashion you will report back and get other members to join in and take your side telling everyone how to mar paint with water.

Don't mind me Tom just push your repackaged wax based products and don't challenge me on my knowledge.
That Autopia "jet eye mind trick" only works on the simple minded.

You're out of your element here.

 

Tom, don't waste your time with this guy.

Just let him tell you that you are drinking the cool-aid and move on.

 

OH MY GOD!

I just figured it out.

You are talking about autopiacarcare.com. Not Autopia.org.

They have nothing to do with us.

The previous owner of autopia sold that name to another vendor. Shouldn't be hard to figure out who bought it.

When you mentioned optima wax and relabeled products, I realized where you were coming from.

3D/www.autopia.org manufactures their own unique formulas. Nothing is relabeled, made from scratch in house.

Hope this will clear things up for you.

 

 

Hi Tom
No mistake, it is Autopia.org without a doubt, I visited your site and linked directly to it.
Same old posts from swollen headed Dave Bynon, pushing his ancient techniques, porter cables and repackaged products. He was a moderator and or manager and he encouraged "holier than thou" baboon like behavior out of Autopia choir boys. He was responsible for more bannings on autopia than any other moderator, he was the one in charge there when the viruses were released on its members and visitors.
I'm running a virus scan now.

I am not knocking 3D products as a brand, I have not tried them so I have no knowledge as to their performance or originality.

However when you align yourself with a biased outdated site like autopia.org, that has such a bad reputation that goes back for years, it casts a shadow on you your knowledge and your products.

If all your products are original designs, they are strong enough to stand up on their own without the autopia association.

 

TOGWT
I am not sure what this graphic response has to do with the topic

But if you have a issue with eclipsisNA's post
you would be better off to PM him. Please don't start with that childish autopia tactic and clutter the board with graphics that make no sense and have nothing to do with the subject matter.