RJC

can't wait to read the response...

K-A

Wow, 2 blatant wrongs in two posts.

K-A

Bingo. Exactly. I feel that people who feel the "need" to have power in L.A, are looking for more of an ego boost. This place is SO congested. Even the SFV (Valley) is congested, although quite a bit "more potentially fun" with a powerful car. In a congested city, IMO the most fun car is the quietest and most luxurious and stylish one, at least those aspects are constantly working for you.

If I lived in a wide-land/non-congested area, my priorities would definitely be different.

WEBSRFR

Back to this Airmatic thing... This photo is supposedly from a 2012 model and it has the Airmatic buttons... What gives?

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-...e/med/#4128155

K-A

Euro spec. It's an E350 too.

They get to have all the fun.

ngerstman

I am NOT the only person who has "whined" about the airmatic on this forum. It does some things well but has its shortcomings. It all depends what is important to you in a suspension and the kinds of roads that you typically drive on. Also keep in mind that there are many more e350 drivers as compared to e550s so there is less feedback on airmatic. Even my dealership said that they had way more blowouts this winter with customers with airmatic. There simply isn't as much travel when you hit a pothole so the tire and rim absorb more of the impact. End of story. Those who don't have my issues and drive on better roads, power to you and enjoy. Personally, I wish it worked better. And when the new e550s are out, I will test drive one and see if I like it. If so, I will try to negotiate a good trade. Maybe the fact that the 2012s don't have airmatic will help with the resale value. I hope so. Regards. Ned.

WEBSRFR

The blowouts might be more a function of low profile tires than the suspension. And it might be a coincidence that the V8 models have low profile tires more often. I know I had a hard time locating a E550 without low profile tires.

ngerstman

There is no doubt in my mind that the increased blowouts are due to the combination of the low profile tires as well as the airmatic. I was visiting the s550 forum and the number of bent rims and blowouts is epidemic, with some people saying they have had 10 blowouts over the years. The s550 has airmatic and 19 inch rims. There is a bigger sample of airmatic with the s550 since that is the standard suspension as opposed to a much smaller sample size on the 212 e forum since a majority have e350's. I like the general drive of the air shocks, but the lack of travel over medium potholes and resulting jarring jolt is a major negative on the roads of New Jersey. Regards. Ned.

220S

I suppose one could come to that conclusion depending on what they read in a forum. But the real data would be more relevant. I don't know where that data could come from to be conclusive in the assessment, however.

I just did a search over all the boards on MBWorld. The topics concerning potholes and blowouts are across all models. C Class, older MBs, E350s, etc., and are not exclusive to any specific model or suspension.

Then I did a Google search typing in this: "BMW pothole blowout." Then I changed BMW to "Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar." Potholes and tire blowouts are endemic.

But there's one common connection: geographic area. There tends to be more complaints on the East Coast, esp NY and NJ. Although I wouldn't say it's worse there unless I had the real data. There are still plenty of complaints coming from LA and San Diego and elsewhere.

Search here and you'll find tire blowout threads with the E350 sport suspension, too. Also search on Benzworld.

I know the service manager of the dealership here and I'll ask him what their statistics might be with Airmatic cars versus steel suspension. But looking at all the Google hits of all car types, I think it's just a combo of road conditions, driving style, and luck of the draw.

We have potholes here. I've hit them (at various speeds) with no issues. Maybe I'm just lucky....

What brand of tires are people using who you've felt have had more than a fair share of issues? What brand are you using? fwiw, I use Michelin PS2 which are known for a stiffer sidewall (for better handling performance; less squirm in the twisties, etc..)

Here's a thread (that didn't go anywhere unfortunately) concerning tire brands. It was started by an E350 owner who had problems. From reading it, the big issue seemed to come from winter ravaged roads. https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...-potholes.html

Anyway, it's endemic and not just you. Here's a tire manufacturer talking about it:

In the UK: http://www.conti-online.com/generato...othole-en.html

In Germany: http://www.conti-online.com/generato...oecher_en.html

And Continental seem to have some of the biggest complaints over other brands. Their sidewalls (on the OEM Continental equipped MB cars) are relatively soft (good for comfort but not for support when hitting potholes.) The first thing I did when I had an E350 was to get rid of the Contis. I personally just didn't like their road characteristics in general.

RJC

Many BMW models have run flats as standard equipment and may be more resistant to blow outs...

220S

Just about all BMWs are now on RFTs. But that doesn't seem to have an affect on complaints about pothole repairs on the Bimmer forums. The biggest complaints seem to be diminished performance with RFTs. Lots of folks I know replace the RFTs with conventional tires even if there's no room for a spare anymore. RFTs are super pricey to replace and will need replacing when you get a flat. Plus a sidewall puncture will leave you on the side of the road, despite being a RFT.

I'm so glad that MB haven't gone to RFTs.

K-A

From what I've read about RFT's (from the Bimmer Board mind you, as people who don't have them definitely have no intentions of wanting them), they are complete disasters that should be avoided at all costs. F10's right now are experiencing sidewall bubbles when hitting potholes.

ImInPA

My Bluetec has the Bridgestone Turanza Run Flats, and in all honesty, I have no real complaints with them. Their all-season tread is not the best in light snow, but, other than that, they are nowhere near as bad as folks write about. It makes me wonder how many folks who complain about them actually have them. The amount of sidewall is what gives you the buffer against blowouts. Run flats are the only way to go if you need the "big wheel" look. They give you a fighting chance, and is no doubt one of the reasons behind BMW offering them on so many of their vehicles.

RJC

Yes the run flats on our last bimmer were harder riding but they did offer extra peace of mind. I would have to imagine with reinforced side walls they'd offer some extra protection against sidewall blow outs but no matter how robust hitting a deep pothole at speed will take out the best tire

220S

I suppose so. It does sound logical. The complaint about RFTs primarily comes from folks looking for performance over peace of mind. A lot of new F10 owners complain that the RFTs are what help contribute to the "distant" steering feel of the F10 over previous models of the 5 series. But who knows if that's right or not.

The question about using RFTs on MBs was asked back in April during the Private Lounge forum chat session with the MBUSA AMG product managers in NJ. They said MB does offer RFTs on the BlueTec models. However the bead design of the wheels need to be designed to hold the RFTs onto the wheel during a puncture. And so the implication is that you're always going to be dependent on wheels that can properly use RFTs. Also they said the current RFTs create a harsher ride that not everyone wants.

They said the decision not to use them at all on the AMG side of things is because of sidewall flex and its predictability as a critical factor when they design suspensions for better handling and comfort.

They said with RFTs the comfort factor and suspension response is diminished when using current RFT technology. They felt that they can't tune suspensions very well with the sidewall response of today's RFTs. That can change if RFT technology gets a lot better (which would eventually happen if they become more accepted by the public.)

So, yeah, if you want peace of mind and aren't concerned about ride quality and suspension characteristics, then RFTs would be a good choice. But not primarily for performance and or/comfort. One can always choose to use RFTs, but I think it would be better if BMW offered an option (along with a place for a spare of some kind.) At least MB owners can use RFTs or not and still have a place for a spare.

Although if BMW is designing suspensions solely for RFTs then non-RFTs might compromise that design Since RFT technology changes (the early RFTs were horrible), I think I'd personally rather have a suspension designed around regular non-RFTs.

K-A

If M-B put RFT's on the W212 Sport it would ride like absolute hell on rough surfaces, as it's already harsh enough (on rough surfaces).

vettdvr

The brand of RFT tire makes a big difference. I have been using RFT's on my Corvette for 10 yrs and won't run without them. Michelin's or Firestone Firehawk both work well and way better than other brands. Just my observation of course yours may be different on different cars.

ngerstman

How dare you attempt to refute my rantings with facts!! I appreciate your attempt to try and find data that would support my theories regarding the airmatic. I just don't think that the data exists and I doubt that Mercedes would step forward to provide them. I'm sure that the epidemic of blowouts is partially and maybe mostly due to the proliferation of ever larger rims and lower profile tires. And there is no doubt that the terrible roads of NY and NJ in combination with lower profile tires has resulted in the spike of complaints. And many of the compaints will seem to come from NJ and NY since they both have the bad roads, large populations and the wealth to afford more Mercedes per capita than than most places. That said, I'm convinced that there is just less travel on rough roads and potholes with airmatic which causes more of the impact to be absorbed by the rims and tires. In a spring /shock system, the travel would be determined by the size of the springs and the damping by the shock and stiffness of the spring. So when one hits a large pothole, the shock/spring system compresses the distance that the spring allows followed by a return to stability by the shock. What I feel with airmatic are the sensors telling the airshock to stiffen up too quickly, even in the comfort mode, thus limiting travel and having the rim and tire take the brunt of the impact. Don't get wrong, there are aspects of the handling that I appreciate with the airmatic. But they were not made with the bad roads of NJ in mind. I would find it hard to believe that Mercedes hasn't tried to find a setting for airmatic that addresses my/our issue. The technology may not be there yet to allow airmatic to be both a sport suspension as well as a comfort suspension. If the technology is there now, I would implore Mercedes to provide a fix for this issue and/or certainly add a third setting for CWR, crappy winter roads. I appreciate your thoughtful response as always. Regards. Ned.

alsyli

The 328i (standard suspension + RFT) that was in our family for a few years had the most perfect steering feel of any car I've ever driven. I wonder if it's the electric power steering that's causing most of the problem?

On a somewhat related note, I remember being absolutely horrified at the high-speed ride of the 330i loaner they gave out (which I think had the sport suspension and larger tires, which I don't think were RFT, at the time). Obviously, the loaner might've had a hard life, but the low-speed ride was superior to the regular 328i but the freeway ride was harsh that it had me gasping over bumps and potholes. I found it completely unacceptable and was surprised that there are so many sport suspension equipped BMWs running around....

K-A

^^ Kinda like the M3 Sedan I rode in. Rode like absolute sh**. Switching lanes and going over those deflector bumps made you feel like you were gonna rattle apart. In actuality, it rides like that because it has the capabilities of a race car, however, since you'll probably never push it to those capabilities, in day to day traffic, it feels/sounds like a hooptie when going over bumps. This was one of the several factors in why I chose an E350 over an M3 I was cross shopping (I was shopping the Coupe though ).

ImInPA

As I stated above, I have no issues with the Bridgestone Turanza Run Flats that came on my Bluetec. I wish they were a bit better in light snow, but, they are not the worst All Season tire I have experience in light snow. In fact, I had prepared myself for the worst, and have truly been delightfully surprised. The new generation of Run FLats have come a long long way from the originals.

K-A

Lol @ "Animal free interior" in your Sig. I will start using that as well (way to make it sound more premium than Leather eh? M-B should take notes ).

It's not entirely true though.... we do have that super smooth and luxurious Nappa wrapped steering wheel.

ImInPA

I think "Nappa" is italian for "MB-Tex"

RJC

I didn't think M3's came with run flats, did you or the sales person have the sport suspension on? The one I test drove was great but I did not use the sport setting which may have accounted for the softer ride.

K-A

It was my friends car that I had the more in-depth experience with. I don't know what setting he had on, but it was a brand new car practically. Whatever it was, that suspension was majorly stiff.