gaspam

not sure if you are assuming a/r = turbo size but just because a/r of our turbos is .50 and s63tu is .66, doesnt mean it flows 32% more as you are leaving out trim compressor /turbine size, etc...Compressor performance is relatively insensitive to changes in A/R but Turbine (exhaust wheel) performance is.... its more about spool and the smaller a/r is why our turbos spool faster and have the big down low trq vs s63tu... also same reason why it run out of breath up top

and m157 down low trq is kinda overkill since the TCU limits it anyways

twin scroll is one of main reason s63tu has a trq curve that is nice and flat as twins will have much lower rotational inertia than an equivalent single, and having equal/short-length split-pulse manifolds they will always make better low end torque at no detriment to top end power..... only thing that would of been better than a twin scroll would of been a VTG, but they get more complicated

displacement isnt as important as it used to be otherwise supra's and GTRs would be slower than e63/m5/ corvette/ mustang etc

Amg63-

it was you who was saying in a thread discussing I think RS7 how the effective displacement of s63tu vs m157 is like a 16L vs 12.5L because of the turbos being 32% larger on the BMW.

I guess the above post clarifies it more precisely.

As for the torque limits taking away the huge power down low, it's making peak torque at 4krpm, nearly 800wtq

arent torque limits only only holding back power at 1000-2500 rpm?

you still achieve a lot of the big down low power which is really more in the midrange. I don't think torque limits are taking away at 3k+ Rpm which is where this motor shines its best does it?

PeterUbers

If amg could limit the torque limits in first gear and build a trans to handle that the price would go up but the w212 awd would run low 11's and high 10's stock

Amg63-

that's true, and w213 also may have once again huge down low trq along with torque limits in place.

If it has same BS lag as w212 I'll probably end up waiting for the w214 or get different brand (Audi maybe).

PeterUbers

agreed. I'm not getting rid of my w212 for four more years... gunna run out this warranty

gaspam

the effective displacement difference is due to different boost pressure between M157 and S63tu, not necessary due to turbo housing size difference, although i can play part of it... but the effective displacement formula only uses boost pressure, atmospheric pressure and engine displacement, so boost pressure is the main driver.... you could have 2 turbos same size and different boost due to different compressor/turbine wheel size combo....

if the new 4.0L e63 can run 34 psi on stock turbos (s63tu max at about 30psi on stock turbos and RS7 max out just a little higher) then effective displacement would be +16L... some of the rs7's with modiffied turbo wheels are running +40 psi, so i could see the new e63 doing the same, which is something M157 turbos will never do

as for your trq down low comment, 4K rpm is not really down low, and also keep in mind those 800wtrq figures usually come from 4th/5th gear dyno pull.... down low on the street is 1st/2nd gear and its not making that trq in those gears since the TCU is more intrusive in the lower gears to protect the transmission, so that ~800wtrq is not in 1st/2nd gear where you want it to get out of the hole, hence why our 60ft times suck

Amg63-

what about the new pure turbo upgrade for m157 pushing well over 800whp/900wtq Surely it must be running 30 psi or something?

eurocharged also has a stg1 turbo upgrade that makes over 700whp and 800wtq but don't know what psi any of these guys are running on them

also, on a highway pull the car would be in 3-7 gear wouldn't it? So at least in this situation it certainly won't have any torque limits to hold it back. I think this is why trap speeds on the e63 always seem higher than they should be considering the ET it gets on the drag strip.

I also wonder out out of curiosity just how much trq it's making in the first few gears with trq limits in place. Is it losing more than 100 wheel vs 4-5th gear power?

gaspam

not sure where you are getting 900 wtrq from but it did not hit that number... not even vasily's 1200hp GAD e63 hit that much... he was at about 863 wtq, so no way 840 whp car made more.... its probably around 800wtrq for the pureturbo car that made 840whp... you can back into the trq roughly with HP formula= trq*rpm/5252..... as you can see trq doesnt always have to increase for HP to increase, some times all that has to be done is be able to hold max trq higher into the rpm band to result in more max hp..... and that is usually what happens with our m157 turbo upgrades, they move the max trq up higher in the power band so you gain more up top highway power but lose some down low street grunt trq..... the benefit of twin scrolls is you sacrifice less of that down low grunt while still gaining some more up top power

and they ran 25-27psi on that run

none of your other question pertain to how the 4.0L can put out more power than a 5.5L

and it may or may not lose to a rs7 / M5 in a roll race as i assume that will be the next question

Ali_E55

new E63S 4.0L engine has different internals (all forged) closed deck block
different turbos
different intake
different intercoolers
different ECU ( we never know if new limitations are being added)


they are running same boost as C63S, but due to the new twin scroll turbos and better cooling/intake design, they are making 20% more HP than the C63S.


engine can take up to 850hp easily without breaking a thing.


it will not reach with a tune and catless downpipe, you will need to upgrade the turbos to go above 800hp at the crank, which I don't think it will be hard.


as for power compared to M157 5.5L


yes, true 5.5L will make a lot more power at the end, if you make the below mods
- different manifold than stock with bigger turbos ( already did that) similar to twin scroll to reduce back pressure and make better air flow.
- different intercooler and all pipes from turbos to TB ( already did that, 2 top mount self custom)
- different huge intake ( already did that)


with all my crazy cooling setup my IATs at 300km/h were not exceeding outside temps even if I race it 10 times back to back. its close to as a N/A engine IATs


BTW, Thermostat can be modified by ECU to open earlier and your IC pump to switch on differently, if they know how to do it. ( I asked for it in my tune)


major thing that restricts the M157 is the whole air in and out design that is very small and restrictive.


I have tested everything on this engine and tried everything.
in short I spent more than $100k just on testing and modifying on mine and I know everything about it.


pros and cons, etc.


to put it in points
- first one to install and test colder plugs ( I was not sharing)
- first one to have closed deck M157 block ( different internals also)
- first one to have different high flow manifold
- first one to make an intake


so bottom line


new 4.0L stock vs 5.5L stock (4.0L will win)


tuned vs tuned ( 4.0 will win)


I have seen C63S downpipe + tune making the same power as 5.5L M157 downpipe + tune on the same dyno.


if you want your 5.5L to beat the new 4.0L , you will have to go in modding all the way to the end.

Ali_E55

oh yes I forgot to mention


probably I will get the new E63S 4matic+


i'm thinking of getting it grey matt with red interiors, night package or full CF parts.

Amg63-

Haha I actually wasn't going there but I bet the w213 will likely spank both of them. Will have to wait a while to find this out.

What about the power in first few gears being lost from the torque limits? While at 4k rpm the stock turbos in 4/5th gear are close to 800wtq, how much less does it make in the first few gears with torque limits holding back some power? I've always wondered this.

The massive torque its making in those upper gears in midrange is no doubt helping the m157 still perform very well on the highway despite its lack of max top end HP.

I didnt have a problem walking my friends tuned m5 a few weeks ago on the highway.

And as you say you really need to think about the way it shifts the power curve before upgrading a single scroll turbo engine like this. Yes there are torque limits holding back a lot of the bottom end in first few gears, and with upgraded turbos it would probably end up with even less than it is stock down low even with those limits.

Midrange has mega torque in the upper gears and I'd hate to wait until 5k+rpm to reach huge power.

Amg63-

wow that was some good info, thanks for all that.

Yup, it does seem that way. With equal mods as you say the 4.0 will beat it.

Im assuming tune+catless dp, again will be a win for the new 4.0L?

i wouldn't bother with the risk of running upgraded turbos on either engine anyway, so for me I'm more curious to know what the 5.5L will need to keep up with new 4.0L with both cars running on stock turbos.

Would you say equal mods it would be even close or not even a chance for the 5.5 to keep up?

And C63S being able to keep up with m157?

I saw the tune for it, only makes about 525whp/575wtq and its a 4.0L with only single scroll turbos.

I dont see how its keeping up, i know its lighter but the power is not even close to tuned m157 even for its lighter weight.

Vipershade

Yeah, I have narrowed my exterior configuration down to exactly the same: selenite grey magno, night package, and exterior carbon fiber trim package.

For the interior, it looks like the only choices are: nut brown/black, macchiato beige/black, and black. No red (at least not in the U.S., even the German configurator shows the same three, not including the Ed1 interior - black w/ yellow stitching).

Ali_E55

no one races at 4k RPM


if you notice when it shifts with stock redline limit, it goes down to 4500rpm and climb up to 6400


sp peak tq will not help a lot for roll racing, if you shift it upto 5000 - 5500 rpm as the peak tq, with adding 200hp more over stock turbos, then your car will fly.


I had my tq peak from 1800 rpm - 5000 , and then it drops 100 - 150 to redline ( in my case was 6800rpm) yes I increased it more than stock


because my block and engine can take the beating.


as for the new cars, the have higher RPMs than us, stock 7000rpm and can be raised upto 7300rpm, with faster shifting, changing to 100% rear wheel and no TQ converter.


yes E63S 4-matic and rear wheels M157 will be smoked





these new bad boys have a crazy grip at launch

Ali_E55

first batch always have less option colors regarding interior, that's what I faced when I got my CLS, the only had, black, red, beige, and brown in early 2011.


so I went with the Edition one CLS63 which until now has unique exterior and interior color.




but yellow strips on a luxury 4 door sedan Mercedes benz.


that's just not cool nor nice, I can understand for a C coupe, A, GLA maybe.


but for an E-class, that is the Fugliest thing that can happen.

Vipershade

Yeah, I can't make that yellow stitching work either. The Night Black Magno looks good (most of the time) but I have seen where it shows off dirt similar to a non-matte black.

I did notice on the AMG site that the estate model is also going to have an Edition 1 option (with apparently the same color combination). That should be an interesting sight.

I'll have to wait a bit then, before ordering... I would be interested to see if they provide a designo interior option.