DocWalla

so I have 1991 190e 2.3 that I bought recently. the stock rims were filled with fix a flat and the chrome was gone so instead of having them redone I put a set of 16" clk wheels on them (see pictures). I went from a 205/65/15 to a 205/55/16 and now the front wheels rub on the fender where it meets the bumper. The car is a running project car as it needs a LOT of tlc. I was going to put new struts on it (Bilstein 36" B8's with a 7 rebound and a 4.5 bound) since the strut mounts are completely worn thru. the car has 193k miles on it and I was wondering if upgrading the struts would fix the rubbing issues?

DocWalla

and im new to this whole forum thing so be gentle lol

DocWalla

anyone able to help..?

DocWalla

56 views and no reply?

MB_Fahrer

First off, welcome aboard! What offset (ET) are the CLK wheels? Nevermind, stupid question on my part. I'll explain in layman's terms: the wheels are sticking out too far from the hub, which is causing the tire to rub on the fender/bumper. How to fix that? Reduce the width/sidewall height of the tire, or buy different wheels. The proper tire height for 16" wheels is 205/50/16. Your's are slightly too tall which is causing the rub. May not be the only reason, but it is adding to it. The worn strut mounts may aggravate your rub issues, so replacing them certainly is not a bad idea.

I'll try to keep an eye on your thread and give input as you need it. Always glad to help out.

Cheers,
Ricky

DocWalla

well i can push the front end down with one hand to within an inch of the tire with not much effort and given how severely worn the strut mounts are im guessing the struts are the main issue. the fenders already look like theyve been rolled so thats out. i was wondering if going from a 205/55/16 to a 205/50/16 with new struts would solve the issue or if im going to wind up pulling the fender or possibly getting my hands dirty with some fiberglass and molding my own widebody fender kit and cutting the fender and molding on my homemade kit to solve the issue. ive also thought about replacing the springs with a stiffer spring as well.. i attached a picture of the widebody kit i wanted to custom mold as i cannot find it online.

DocWalla

and as for the strut mounts, they are so worn that when i lifted up the car with a 2 ton floor jack to do the oil change the tires only had about an inch and a half - 2 inches of clearance from the ground with the jack fully extended. i looked at the strut mounts and the centers of the rubber had dropped down about 2 inches. the recessed ring in the rubber is where its completely separated.. and with the tire rubbing (hard enough to grind a grove into the tire) should i error on the side of caution and replace the ball joints and get up close and personal to make sure the steering rack hasnt been bent by it?

MB_Fahrer

What is your goal with the car? Daily driver, weekend cruiser, beater? Are you planning on mods? Is yours an auto or a stick?

If I were in your shoes, I would:

--Start going through the rubber bits (control arms, ball joints, sway bar bushings, strut mounts, subframe, engine, transmission, differential, flex disks, etc)

--Replace the CLK wheels with some lightweight wheels that fit better (and allow for a wider tire, but stick with a 16-17" wheel) rather than have to deal with cutting or glassing new fenders (tirerack.com is a great resource for wheels and tires)

--Begin sorting out mechanical issues (if your strut mounts are so degraded, just imagine what else you're going to find under the hood)

There's a lot of info on these 190s. Just research, research, research. Benzworld.org also has a semi-active 190 section.

A couple other websites are:
http://190rev.net/forums/
http://www.w201forum.com/
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/forum/5938/

As for your steering rack, I would doubt it's been damaged. They seem fairly robust, but if you happen to take some pictures of the nitty-gritty, I can probably judge more accurately. You'll soon learn we are picture-crazy on here

Just FYI, tires are very susceptible to damage from body panels. The tire just has to momentarily brush the bodywork to cause grooves in the rubber. There doesn't have to be but slight pressure to cause it. Happens all the time on my various cars when I'm playing around with wheels, tire widths, camber, etc.

DocWalla

its a 5 speed. as of right now on my to-do list i have: both engine mounts and the tranny mount, struts and strut mounts, alternator, water pump, serp belt, belt tensioner and tensioner pully. idler pully while im at it, fan clutch, thermostat, oil, air, and fuel filter, coolant level sensor, hood and grill, star and emble and grill insert. (it has 193k miles and was backed into before i bought it. i need to fix the radiator bar on the driver side so the headlight/blinker assembly will stay in without duct tape.) the stereo said code and would not unlock no matter what i did so i just dropped a clarion deck in it but the speakers and wires were shot, someone spilled something sticky in the fader switch, the back window switches and hazards switch were affected as well. back passanger window is only window that wont go down from the back switch but not important) i dropped a set of 6x9 boxes and speakers behind the seats for temp fix and a set of studio monitor speakers i had from a box with a fried crossover in the holes behind the back seat. i want it to be a daily driver. shooting for around 350 whp. eventually going to do a standalone efi, custome bent 2.5" str8 thru exhaust with relocated mounting brackets so i can swap the old exhaust back in for emissions. custome intake manifold. port and sleeve with stroker setup. aggressive cam for said stroker setup, and possible supercharger (kompressor maybe?) after a complete top and bottom rebuild. would like to get a set of coilover TEIN's, upgrade sway/anti-roll bars, strut tower bar, subframe upgrade. and possibly a hks f-con ecu with engine knock sensor and multi-map/blueprint selectable from a switch inside the car for daily driving, bondo-civic clubbing, and all out track (if thats even possible). no rush. going to be my second girlfriend. plan on doing this over then next couple years in my spare time.

MB_Fahrer

That's quite an ambitious goal for a 190. I've got a couple thoughts that you can ponder...

In my opinion, you'd be best off buying a 2.3-16V motor or 2.5-16V motor (from Europe) and building it up to swap in at a later date. One thing to keep in mind is: there really aren't any parts for these cars, save for a few DTM parts (very expensive but worth it).

Since you are planning on modifying it, be sure to use poly mounts wherever possible. I will poke around for some links and post them up tomorrow. Alternatively, you can have solid aluminum mounts made from any decent machine shop.

There are no coilover kits made for these cars. Unless you want to start fabricating new control arms, sway bars, and coilover mounts in your own wheel well, I would recommend going with one of the Bilstein B12 kits, the H&R cup kit, or email Hotbits. I had them build me a custom set of shocks and springs for my 190 DTM car. http://www.hotbits.ca/

Phew, I'm running out of energy. I'll sleep on what you've said, and hopefully have some better input tomorrow. Can't wait to see your project come together.

DocWalla

I'm planning on doing this over then next 5-10 years and eventually i want it to be a dtm car under the hood and body but a daily driver on the interior and exterior. (a sleeper if you will) i saw a 2.3-16 on ebay for 1800 in the forums but im not sure what it entails for the swap (and shipping lol). realistically if i can break 300whp and 240 ft lb torque ill be very happy. ive heard that the timing chains on the 2.3-8 snap easily though, so idk what power is actually realistic until its lunched. the parts im looking at are about 1600$ for the suspension and everything else i listed in my to-do list. for an extra 200 i could get the 2.3-16 but idk if it would be easier to go to 280whp and call it good on the 2.3-8 or swap in the 16.

MB_Fahrer

Well the problems is with such little displacement, that the engine will be working very hard to make that much power for an extended duration. The 2.5-16 DTM engines made 390hp and 310tq but required rebuild every 300km's (about 200 miles). You can still buy DTM engines through Atec Motorenbau in Germany. Surprisingly, it only runs you about $45k per motor (not including the Bosch standalone system to run it).

I would say that with a 2.3-16V you could make around 250bhp reliably. With a 2.5-16, closer to the 275-300bhp. I suppose if you put some massive valves in the 2.3-8, you might get around 200bhp? With only 2 valves per cylinder, there isn't a whole lot you can do.

The biggest problem with these cars, is that everyone thinks they're easy to tune. They just aren't. They aren't like a small block Chevy motor that you can swap out a million different heads, cams, and carbs until you're happy. Resources for the W201's are very scarce, basically nonexistent in the USA, because it's a 25 year old car that was only raced for a short while. In Europe, there are a few people around that can find some gems. The trick, is finding and contacting those people in Europe.

What you should do, is set yourself a realistic budget. Do you want to spend $10k on the entire project or $100k? Give it some thought. Big horsepower (meaning around the 300 and up mark) out of these little 4 bangers gets very expensive, very quickly.

Don't think I'm trying to scare you off. I've been down the 190 project road before. Was going to build a full DTM replica. Had the car, had the chrome molly cage build, was having the body kit fitted, then I sold it. Just too much time and money. Total project cost if it all came together was just over $400k (5 engines, 4 transmissions, 6 sets of magnesium wheels, the whole 9 yards). The problem with the W201's, is they're dirt cheap to buy, but expensive to tune and even more time consuming--and that's really a shame because they are wonderful little cars. I have some great memories of mine as well as the people I was dealing with throughout the time I owned it.

DocWalla

I pretty much want to be able to go to the track and give a 90's M3 a good run. if i put massive valves in, an aggressive cam, 750cc injectors with a standalone efi, intake, and exhaust with a sleeve job and custom pistons, and a stroker setup would 225whp be do-able reliably with cooling system upgrades (ie bigger radiator, electric fans etc) and remote oil filter&pump?

Mike190e

I recently upgraded my wheels from factory 15's to a set of 16's from a 2004 C240. I am experiencing the same exact issue. I have noticed that my passenger side fender is back farther about an inch than it is on the driver's side. I was wondering if this could be your issue also? I am planning to try and unbolt the fender and move it forward to the same position as the driver's side fender. The only problem is that I'm not sure how to reach the bottom bolt between the fender and door. If someone can help me answer that I will try it and let you know if that has solved my rubbing issue.

MB_Fahrer

I would guess that your car has been crunched up front. You'll need a swivel socket/wobbly to get to the bottom bolt and a long extension. Use 1/4 drive.

Mike190e

I was actually able to put spacers in between the coil springs and this has stopped my tire rubbing against the fender and the bumper. So it may be just as easy on yours.

MB_Fahrer

Oh dear God... Just replace the springs. They are shot.

Here, they're only $90: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-W20...4cb7d1&vxp=mtr

Mike190e

I did go ahead and replace the springs with a set from a '93 300E and no more rubbing. I had to put spacers in able to get back home from where I was at because I didn't want to take a chance driving home 100+ miles with the tire rubbing the bumper.

MB_Fahrer

Okay great! How are your rear springs? When were the shocks replaced last?

DocWalla

well i'm going to be putting in bilstein b8s front and back along with febi bilstein mounts on all corners. first off im doing the mounts though, yesterday i put in the order for the tranny mount, engine mounts, serp. belt, coolant level sensor, hazard switch, fuel filter, oil filter, oil filer cap, and intake manifold gasket (since i have to either finagle through the manifold or take it off to get to the driver side engine mount.. im opting to just take the manifold off, give it a good clean, and replace the gasket while im in there). also ive been reading on removing/swapping the r16/1 resistor out from the 700ohm to 1.3kohm or 2.4kohm one to unretard the timing. currently with the 700 ohm resistor the engine is retarded by 6 degrees. since i run nothing but 91 octane im going to swap it out and move the timming to either 4 degrees (1.3kohm) or 2 degrees (2.4kohm). car has 195k on it. should i error on the side of caution and only go to 4 degrees? or take the leap to the euro-spec 2.4kohm and go for 2 degrees?

DocWalla

scratch that 2.4kohm. im going with the 1.3kohm as it is the correct resistor for 91 only, as we do not have 93 octane in Arizona. part number is 015 545 68 28 and its about $25 from the dealer, shipped from germany.

vanir

From what I've gathered looking into it over recent weeks, with the R16/1 you've got it all backwards. All three, the 760, 1.3k and 2.4k ohms ones are US delivery resistors and their values are in advance BTDC, higher resistance and lower value, less advance. They are all US delivery resistors because knock index in US unleaded was horrid in the 80s-90s and often misreported at the pump. The variable R16 module on Euro deliveries was considered unsuitable because standards on advertised ratings differs so the R16/1 resistors were installed for the US, Asian and Australian markets based upon the local mainstream quality of fuels as tested by a benchmark engine in Germany. Same thing happens with aircraft engines as a by the way. Fuel in west Europe and the US and even England is even made differently using different processes and content, Germany has a long history of synthetic fuel production and very well developed chamber engineering for specific construction of fuels. Also in western Europe you're closer to the home of Mercedes and local service workshops are likely to be more familiar with appropriate settings on a variable EZL, where overseas markets there maybe less familiarity and the wrong settings toyed with and causing engine damage, sort of a manufacturer seals to prevent tampering if you like...US deliveries have a few seals like that for example there's a plug preventing motorists from tampering with the mixture control for the K-jetronic, it's not plugged for other countries. Mercedes likes to deliver cars appropriate for local markets to keep their excellent engineering reputation.

So firstly you're usually best off sticking with the range of R16/1 designed for your region if you want to use pump gas at any station.
US region is 760, 1.3k and 2.4k ohms. These are for 89-91 RON (often advertised 91 RON is really 89 due to poor quality control and market regulation by the authorities).
Asia and Australia is 220 and 0 ohms. These are for 95 RON minimum. The 0 ohms should use 98 RON (shell ultra in Europe and Asia).

Mine is an Asian delivery relocated to Aus and pings its head off on 91, runs great on 95 but it hasn't been hot yet since I've had it, I suspect on a real hot day I'll want 98 in it.
But our fuel quality is real high and very consistent both due to Parliament having a direct hand in regulation of private markets dictating how fuel quality must be advertised and adhered to at the pump (we're a semi-socialist government here so Parliament can do that and does), and also because we're a relatively small population market so it's easier to regulate fuel quality at the pump.

The three US R16/1 were installed standard depending on the year, as US (particularly California) emissions increased their strictness. Early 190s had the 760ohms, then later production had the 1.3k ohms for manuals and 2.4k ohms for autos (autos are usually under higher loading at lower rpm so knock easier). You'll probably find this went with more restrictive cam timing and exhausting to progressively reduce emissions.

Mine has the 220ohms resistor and a big plate on the fuel filler marked "premium unleaded only" plus my own experience so far has been 95 RON premium is the minimum fuel grade I can put in it, and not from a cheap service station either, only from the well regulated big ones people fill up their Porsche turbos at.

DocWalla

well mine is a 1991 190e 2.3 8v manual. i fill up at only shell stations and only 91 v-power (the highest regular pump gas here in the US). i have a 750ohm resister. i wanted to un-retard the timing (which is currently 6 degrees retarded) if i go to the 1.3kohm resistor it will retard it by 4 degrees (-2 from where it is now). from what ive read and asked around, advancing the timing will give me a better combustion, better fuel economy, and a slight increase in engine response. is all that wrong (or backwards)?

vanir

1991 production should have the 1.3k ohms with the manual trans on a stock US delivery. The 2.4k ohms is for the auto, 1991 production. Yours must have a pre-91 build date (could be delivered in 91 but built in 1990), before 91 these cars built for the US market all had the 760 ohms R16/1.
In both cases, the base ignition advance is 8-12 BTDC, varied by the air sensor, the boiling protection, things like that. Any retardation by the R16/1 is upon that base, for specific fuel type, in the US case 89-91 RON and those tight Cali emissions.

If you put in a 440ohms R16/1 you'd need to run it on 93 RON. For the 220ohms I have 95 RON is minimum.

So yes you've got it back to front. You go down in ohms for more advance, or more to the point less retardation on the stock advance of 8-12 degrees at idle (more like 40 degrees at high engine speeds). The R16 retards this value a touch, but the net is still a spark advance of course, engine wouldn't run otherwise it'd sit there backfiring.
Don't be surprised by this, these engines were designed for 100 RON leaded and simply adapted for unleaded, 8-12 degrees advance at idle is perfectly normal for a high output Euro engine running on leaded super pump grade (97-102 RON).

So firstly, at 760ohms your resistor already has the highest advance for 91 RON. Going higher means lower ohms, and for that you'd need higher octane fuel. But that's not the real issue or the problem with messing around with your R16/1 rating.
See, here's the thing. Mercedes continually revised cam profiling and timing (there's a dozen part numbers for cams on these motors) and the 1.3k ohms (manual) and 2.4k ohms (auto) resistors which are for the US market, was probably introduced with a new cam timing/profile. The 760 ohms one is for a different cam profile/timing. All three are for the US market meaning designed for US pump grade fuel, the 760 ohms is for both autos and manuals up to 1990 and the 1.3k ohms for manuals and 2.4k ohms for autos built in 1991. So I don't think the difference between those particular ones is as much about fuel grade as the cam installation year.
So you're best off sticking with 760 ohms if that's what you have, it's the highest advance for 91 RON and is likely to be matched for your cam year installation. If you had the 1.3k ohms resistor that's also for 91 RON but a different cam. That's what I've inferred from what I've been able to gather about these engines.

Our premium unleaded is 95 RON and we have an ultra premium at 98 RON here, our standard unleaded is 91 RON hence Australian deliveries have 220 ohms and 0 ohms R16/1 resistors, and a plate warning premium unleaded must be used. The 440 ohms one is for the 93 RON you mentioned.

The R16/1 are marked for which country they're being delivered to, the year tells you the rating. The 760 ohms, 1.3k ohms and 2.4k ohms resistors are stamped with USA in an oval. The 220 ohms and 0 ohms are stamped with AUS in an oval.
Euro 190s have a variable EZL module so they can switch between different resistors by turning a switch. They're stamped with things like "normal" and "shell ultra" because for the Euro ones it's about fuel type.
For overseas deliveries, which may have different camshafts and exhausting, it's all about the country it is tuned for. Whether you need to use Premium unleaded or just standard grade is marked on the fuel filler, it's not up to a mechanic to decide like it is for the Euro versions.

To reiterate, you're really best off sticking with the 760 ohms it's got, especially if you intend running it on 91 RON. Just like I'm best off sticking with the 220 ohms resistor mine has, and using 95 RON as marked under the fuel filler flap in big letters. The Euro thing about varying the resistor for fuel type at your discretion, dude it's a Euro thing.

DocWalla

so why couldnt i just get a 1.3 and a 440 and see which one i like better? (just an experiment)