Stevo11

Hi,
I'm a new member looking at buying an '88 - '92 190.
Can anyone tell me what year ABS and AirBags appeared in this model or was it as standard from day 1? What kind of MPG will the Diesel get? Any problems with these years that I should be looking out for when going to see these cars?
Many thanks in advance!
Steve

mbr129

Well, my 1985 190D 2.2 had no airbags or ABS. My current 1990 190E 2.6 has a driver's airbag and ABS.

Overall the climate control unit seems to be the biggest issue. Auto transmissions start getting weird as the car aproaches 150K miles and gets really bad by about 200K miles. Frequent tranny fluid changes should help push this symptoms off for a while.

My cars tends to go through brakes quicker than other cars, but nothing horrendous. At some point over 120K miles you should get the valve cover gasket and valve stem seals replaced. This will help a lot as far as oil consumption. As the higher miles accumulate (150K or more) some motors may start to go. Wiper motor is one of them. But they rarely just die. They show signs of age first.

Let's see what else... Make sure the car is aligned frequently otherwise you will wear the shoulder of the front tires in no time.

Ok, That's all I have.

MTI

Air bags (SRS) were optional equipment on W201's from their introduction into the US in 1984, as was Anti-Lock Brakes (ABS). In 1986, airbags were made standard equipment on all Mercedes passenger vehicles sold in North America. According to Mercedes, these "first generation" airbags have a 15 year useful life, after which MB will not guarantee their condition or usefulness.

The 190D (2.2L 5-speed) was rated 36 MPG EPA City; 55 MPG EPA Hwy; but real world testing gave it about a 33 MPG avg when tested in 1983.

Stevo11

Excellent info! Thanks!

Stevo11

So... I've been to see a few and one in particular caught my eye, its an '88 190D (remember this car is for the Missus as a runabout), drives well, although it does feel a bit skittish in the steering department... not as direct as I'd like (I'm hoping its not a steering box problem...)... its recently passed our NCT (National Car Test), so emissions and all that are fine. Brakes are good, acceleration is very... ahhh.. docile... fairly slow alright...
The interior is in a bad state and the electric mirror switch isn't working, but a valet should sort it out and I'll get my multimeter at the swtich.
Bit of belt squeal at one stage during the test drive, but belts can be tightened... how long in between cam belt/chain changes?
Also, it has NO Rust (nice one!) and... the car is only 1000 euros!
So, anything else I should look at/ what am I forgetting? What should I be looking at in the engine bay? I'm not too familiar with Diesel engines (yet!) as I've always had petrol, currently have a v.v.v.quick Turbo'd MX-5 (Miata in N.America).
Thanks again!
Steve

Stevo11

I bought it! Will have a mechanic look over it on Friday, if its straight, I'll give the owner the rest of the Euros ;-)
Now... have to find a good Valet!
Steve

Stevo11

Just in case anyone is interested... 2 years 6 months on... still have the 190D and am also running an 1982 230CE. The 190D has had new ball joints(14 euros as I changed them myself), (the dodgy steering turned out to be a lumpy tyre!) 4 new tyres(220euro), new battery(70 euro), windscreen wiper motor rebuilt (40euro), new vacuum pump(40euro) plus an injection pipe(had one made for 25 euro). Running costs are incredibly low(and the MPG is great), all that was over 2.5 years! Plus of course he usual pads, filters, oil etc... car is still great on the road and v.smooth at cruise... engine noise is still a little loud but I think this may be a 'feature' of this model
Steve

MTI

The 190D did have extra insulation and encapsulation to minimize the diesel clatter. Does yours still have these bits?

LeftCoastBias

MTI; when did benz switch from first gen airbags to 2nd?


...just curious if my '91 is going to have a useless airbag next year (16 years old soon!!!!)

jerro95

Hmmm. What are some common problems that the 190D 2.5 have? I'm in the United States and I'm just looking into the 190D and doing more research so that I can drive one as a daily driver. How difficult would it be getting onto the highway/motorway, starting from an incline?

Rauhbatz

These days I just use it for local trips...mostly to and from the airport. The 2.3 motor just keeps chugging along using Mobil 1...here are the things that have gone wrong w our ride (that now has 238K on it...can't wait to add the 500km badge to the 250km badge that adorns the grill).

Had valve job done at 120K...I get a valve noise now and then but all seems good there

Water pump goes out about every 80K miles

Watch the V-belt...replace it at the first sign of it looking shaggy

Replace the spark plugs and rotor on a regular basis/when it starts to run rough and use spark plug lubricant

Had a U-joint go out at 200K miles...started to squeak a lot

I still have the original shocks and struts...going to get those replaced this year

See some of my previous posts for more details...

Its nice having the 4 cyl economy w the toughness of the 6 cyl block...

All in all a great car ! For my sort of local driving I can't see getting anything else... ...other than my daughter is starting to drive and my wife wants something w more air bags

vanir

The concept of the 190D was really for taxi operators in Europe, factory requirement was economy and the ability to change drivers and keep the car running 24/7 for long periods, which is really the philosophy behind early, naturally aspirated diesel sedans. The Euro taxi market and its operational realities. Petrol engines don't like being run 24/7 for extended periods, they start to get maintenance heavy and carry relatively light mileage badly like that, at a certain point you have to just trash them where a diesel is still good after a whole career as a taxi.

But a diesel has issues as a private domestic sedan, diesels don't like much variation in engine speeds and don't have a lot of flexibility. They're hard to break within their strengths but private sedans need flexibility and diesels can get very expensive to repair if you do break them with demands they can't cope with as easily as a petrol engine.

So when the private domestic market caught onto the economy and longevity of diesel taxi operators, largely introduced by buying ex-taxis with high mileage still in terrific mechanical condition, the manufacturers started courting the private market but had to solve the flexibility issue, which was when the turbodiesels appeared in sedans.

The 190D Turbo is probably what you're looking for jerro. A naturally aspirated diesel sedan can't be driven like a petrol engine, it doesn't have the flexibility for it, won't deliver average performance demands and it will break being run like one. The turbo gives better engine flexibility but the truth is it's the later turbodiesels in the full electronic management age (post-90s) that really transformed diesel sedans for the private market, modern turbodiesels perform just like petrol engines, early ones just plain don't.

An enthusiast might like driving the 190 diesels, but an enthusiast alters their driving requirements to suit the car, not the other way around. It's a bit like driving a vintage car around, you just wouldn't expect it to keep pace with modern traffic on a motorway or else you'd expect it to break trying to.
The most direct operational difference between diesel and petrol is a diesel will last longer used for daily shopping if you left it running in the car park whilst you did the shopping, a petrol will last longer if you shut it down and don't leave it idling too long. Diesels don't like constant shut downs/start ups, and they don't like extreme variations in how they're being driven, petrol engines need both and don't like humming away for too long at the one engine speed, a diesel will do it all day, they're complete opposites like that.

You might consider a post-87 2.3 petrol 190 (earlier NAM 2.3 has less performance), or a 2.6, but if you're accelerating from a standing start you'll want the manual. The W201 auto box has a ridiculous 1st gear with a huge jump to the 2nd ratio and it gives kickdown headaches, meaning low speed acceleration is something you just can't count on in the autos. Only very specific, limited conditions it gets up and boogies off the line.
So the manual definitely if low speed acceleration is a requirement.

And if your performance demands are low speed acceleration into motorways I think you're really looking at a petrol engine or a much more modern diesel sedan, like a post-2000 something-TDI ideally, which does perform pretty much like any petrol engine with all the benefits of a diesel. But you just couldn't expect older models to do that, they can't.
190 petrol engines have terrific economy however, my 2.6 easily manages around 30mpg under any conditions, fuel usage doesn't noticeable increase even when flooring it around and I'm making around 185bhp at the moment. With the mods it has no trouble keeping pace with modern V6 sedans, but it was a bit of a slug off the line when it was stock. Kind of characteristic of the 190 autos with any engine option.

I mean let's be realistic. If we're seriously talking about accelerating a W201 into modern traffic at a motorway merge from a standing start, off an incline competitively, you're talking about an AMG 3.2



The post script is a W201 shines once you're at highway speeds. It has roughly the drag coefficient of a Porsche 911 of the era. It will easily out-accelerate much more modern cars with far more horsepower at interstate speeds, it's just so unbelievably slippery in the wind. It doesn't look it, but it really is. And that's its secret behind how Mercedes tapped fantastic economy in an 80s light-compact, that and the vacuum-mechanical Kjet, it was only later that EFI surpassed it but in the mid-80s there was just nothing around that could keep up on a fast highway without burning a lot more fuel. Around town, it's rather unremarkable unless one of the performance versions like a Cosworth-head or an AMG. And unremarkable in an 80s car is like a slug by modern standards. The diesels add another 10mpg but lose a little highway performance and a lot more around town. Diesel performance wasn't important back then, constant operation and low running cost was the diesel sedan priorities. Also means diesels are typically base versions with no options fitted, wind up windows, no sunroof, etc.

jerro95

Vanir thank you for the in depth information, it was really helpful and very informative. I know I want a 201 diesel, and I would pretty much prefer a turbo diesel engine. With the turbo diesel 2.5 engine, would going 70 mph put too much strain on the engine?

I test drove the 300D turbo w123, and loved it, even though it was not fast in today's standards. With that car, I didn't mind traveling 60 in a 65 zone. After driving the car on the freeway, I knew that the car didn't want to drive fast, or accelerating for that matter. If drive a 190D turbo I would most likely drive it the way I drove the 300D turbo. Calm acceleration, and not floor it like taking off onto the freeway with a regular petrol engine.

Thanks for the information again.

DocWalla

I hav a 1991 2.3 8v 190e 5 speed, 200k miles is less then 800 away. We do have gen 1 airbags in all 190s. But I'd rather that didn't go off as gen 1 did more harm then good past 50mph. Powder burns, crushed sternum, broken face bones, the lot really. I get about 20mpg but I just found out I have a timing chain that's slipped a tooth. Even so, it had a 2004 civic 2 weeks ago up a freeway on ramp and after we passed 70 it complete vanished in my mirror. I will not be doing that again until I get my timing chain issues resolved. If you have the ac on you will have the get up and go of a vw bus though..

DocWalla

And as for the steering issues, I just went through and did tie rod assembly on both sides, center link, steering stabilizer, struts, strut mounts, and lower control arms, tightened everything up. The steering box has an adjustment that can tighten things back up if that fails. The play at the wheel is between 15-30mm at the wheel to be allowable by dealer specs. That's where the e30 had the 190 is the more precise wheel feel. Still couldn't pay me enough to trade my 190 for an e30 though!

vanir

No worries jerro.

As for highway driving the diesels, it's not really a case of engine strain holding them back at high speed, it's horsepower.

What a vehicle requires to do a given speed is the drive ratio (gearing) to give an engine speed which produces the required horsepower to overcome drag.

Very loosely put, the drag of a W201 shell requires around 145bhp to do 200km/h, around 160bhp to do 215km/h, around 190bhp to do 235km/h and around 255bhp to do 260km/h.

The various petrol engines are getting up these speeds because their engine flexibility means horsepower extends well beyond the torque band.
Diesels have a lot of torque but their horsepower curve doesn't extend much past it.
Put simply every engine produces power from 1500-3500rpm, but a petrol engine traditionally continues producing power from 3500-6000rpm or more, where a diesel traditionally stops producing power past the torque band at 3500rpm and you need to change a gear to produce power at a faster car speed.

Because of these different characteristics, a diesel sedan typically just plain runs out of gears to do high speeds. It has no horsepower at the rpm required to do high speed without lots of overdrive gears and a lazy diff ratio to bring the engine speed back down to where the diesel makes its horsepower: within the torque band (the purpose of a turbodiesel is to produce horsepower beyond the torque band like a petrol engine, not to significantly increase maximum horsepower rating, and this is why).

A diesel often has the horsepower for it, they make far more torque than petrol engines in the same class but around the same horsepower...just not in the higher rpm range which is where you need to be producing horsepower to do high speeds unless you have a 42 speed gearbox. Or a turbo on it, or both.

The early generation turbodiesels of the 80s aren't as effective as current ones. It helps flexibility issues, but modern ones are whole new ball game. The older ones won't be like that even with a turbo but you'll probably be pretty happy with it from what it sounds.