300E performance upgrades
03-27-2010, 12:27 AM
#1
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e400
300E performance upgrades
I was just wondering what kind of performance upgrades would be best for my 1993 300E 2.8L..
It is the M104 engine with 24 valves.
If anyone knows any really good upgrades for a lot of power please post the part(s). Im looking for atleast 50 hp and 60 torque for around $1300.
I understand it would be very hard to get these kind of hp and torque gains without taking the engine apart myself and changing stuff around - which i do not want to do!
So far the only things i know i am going to get are:
Cold air intake- 10-15 hp - $250
Spark Plugs- 5 hp - $75-100
So another 30-40 hp on top of that would be great!
Thanks
Also with about 250 hp and 265 torque does anyone know how fast my car would do 0-60mph (0-100 km/h) in? And how about 0-124 mph (200 km/h)? And also how can i get rid of the 1st to 2nd gear delay bug?
I figured w/o a delay bug and 265 torque it would do 0-60 in around 6.8?? Faster, slower?
It is the M104 engine with 24 valves.
If anyone knows any really good upgrades for a lot of power please post the part(s). Im looking for atleast 50 hp and 60 torque for around $1300.
I understand it would be very hard to get these kind of hp and torque gains without taking the engine apart myself and changing stuff around - which i do not want to do!
So far the only things i know i am going to get are:
Cold air intake- 10-15 hp - $250
Spark Plugs- 5 hp - $75-100
So another 30-40 hp on top of that would be great!
Thanks
Also with about 250 hp and 265 torque does anyone know how fast my car would do 0-60mph (0-100 km/h) in? And how about 0-124 mph (200 km/h)? And also how can i get rid of the 1st to 2nd gear delay bug?
I figured w/o a delay bug and 265 torque it would do 0-60 in around 6.8?? Faster, slower?
Last edited by zach1328; 03-27-2010 at 12:32 AM.
03-27-2010, 01:21 AM
#2
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....
Our cars have cold air intakes. It draws air from beside the radiator and the headlight.
I don't know what bug you're talking about from 1->2. If you have the same m104 as me, the redline is about 7500rpm and it will hold the gear until it hits that if you have the pedal to the floor.
Our cars have cold air intakes. It draws air from beside the radiator and the headlight.
I don't know what bug you're talking about from 1->2. If you have the same m104 as me, the redline is about 7500rpm and it will hold the gear until it hits that if you have the pedal to the floor.
Last edited by Saijin_Naib; 03-27-2010 at 01:23 AM.
03-27-2010, 10:25 AM
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e400
Well when i say 'delay bug' i am referring to the car starting in 2nd gear for a smoother takeoff. If you gun it the car then has to think about it and downshift into 1st gear which can waste some time from 0-60. I want to say a stock 1993 300E 2.8L 24V does 0-60 in about 8.2 seconds (correct me if im wrong), and the 'delay bug' would take a good .5 seconds off that.
Thank you very much for the reply though. I have always been planning on getting a cold air intake, partly because my car runs at such high temperatures (living in Texas), so it should give my car a good boost in power. Maybe 10-15?
I just want to get my accel down to somewhere between 6.8 and 7.2 secs. Which if i run out of ideas for performance i might just start finding ways to drop some weight off the car.
Thanks again =)
Thank you very much for the reply though. I have always been planning on getting a cold air intake, partly because my car runs at such high temperatures (living in Texas), so it should give my car a good boost in power. Maybe 10-15?
I just want to get my accel down to somewhere between 6.8 and 7.2 secs. Which if i run out of ideas for performance i might just start finding ways to drop some weight off the car.
Thanks again =)
03-27-2010, 11:17 AM
#4
Your numbers are grossly optimistic. You won't get any or very, very minimal gains from a different intake seup. 5hp spark plugs?
Eliminating the "delay bug" will require a completely new valve body.
There is no delay bug if you properly lock it down into 1st gear from a stop. (@ a stop, putting it into 2nd for 1-2 seconds will make it start in 1st)
Eliminating the "delay bug" will require a completely new valve body.
There is no delay bug if you properly lock it down into 1st gear from a stop. (@ a stop, putting it into 2nd for 1-2 seconds will make it start in 1st)
Last edited by ps2cho; 03-27-2010 at 11:19 AM.
03-27-2010, 01:29 PM
#5
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Seconded to ps2cho. Not hard to get it to drop into First from a stop.
If you want to take some acceleration time off, get the rear differential from the r129 320SL. It is a 3.69 final drive ratio.
You're NOT going to get much if any HP from a cold air intake. Our intakes are cold air intakes. What I intend to do is to copy the dual-intake setup from the V8 w124 by combining the driver side radiator intake with a passenger side headlight intake.
I may also experiment with heatwrapping the intake piping to try and lessen ambient engine bay heat from leeching into the intake air.
Also, m104 300e/300ce is good for about 8.5s 0-60 in the best of conditions (aka, factory reported after new production).
If you want to see what I've been learning these past few years, please read through my thread. I've gotten a ton of amazing advice on most every aspect of my car from really knowledgeable members.
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...991-300ce.html
Most if not all of the things discussed in my thread pertain to your vehicle as well.
If you want to take some acceleration time off, get the rear differential from the r129 320SL. It is a 3.69 final drive ratio.
You're NOT going to get much if any HP from a cold air intake. Our intakes are cold air intakes. What I intend to do is to copy the dual-intake setup from the V8 w124 by combining the driver side radiator intake with a passenger side headlight intake.
I may also experiment with heatwrapping the intake piping to try and lessen ambient engine bay heat from leeching into the intake air.
Also, m104 300e/300ce is good for about 8.5s 0-60 in the best of conditions (aka, factory reported after new production).
If you want to see what I've been learning these past few years, please read through my thread. I've gotten a ton of amazing advice on most every aspect of my car from really knowledgeable members.
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...991-300ce.html
Most if not all of the things discussed in my thread pertain to your vehicle as well.
03-28-2010, 12:50 AM
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2002 CLK55 Cabriolet (DEAD: 1989 300E, 1984 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz Convertible)
Don't underestimate a good air filter. I bet K&N make one for our cars.
I discovered that my car ('89 300E) had lost quite a bit of pep due to Jiffy Lube putting in the wrong air filter (i.e. not the Mercedes-specified one), plus it was getting dirtier much quicker than normal because I live very close to the Station Fire area in Los Angeles and there is a huge amount of dust/dirt/soot that keeps getting kicked up into the atmosphere around here whenever there's a wind storm or rain storm. Replacing the air filter suddenly got my car's ***** back!
I discovered that my car ('89 300E) had lost quite a bit of pep due to Jiffy Lube putting in the wrong air filter (i.e. not the Mercedes-specified one), plus it was getting dirtier much quicker than normal because I live very close to the Station Fire area in Los Angeles and there is a huge amount of dust/dirt/soot that keeps getting kicked up into the atmosphere around here whenever there's a wind storm or rain storm. Replacing the air filter suddenly got my car's ***** back!
03-28-2010, 08:04 AM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Do some basics before you dream about "cheap" horsepower, and open your wallet to buy it.
First perform a compression and leakdown test.
If not within factory spec or with one bar cylinder variance, then reinstall your old spark plugs and close your hood...
Without compression you will never make power.
Put some Chevron Techron in your gas tank...run a few tanks with it.
This should begin to clean your injectors.
Run minimum 91 octane, but better 93 octane.
Not looking for hidden power in the octane but more the detergents and additives that first tier high octane gas contains.
Always run first tier gas and your fuel delivery system will be clean
Check the engine for vacuum leaks.
Leaks reduce power.
If all proves true then tune the engine to factory specs.
M104 check the spark coil output, and replace plugs and wires.
M103 check the coil output, replace plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor.
Properly tuned a M103 or M104 will do mid seven second 0-60 times and low 16 second / high 80 , low ninety MPH 1/4 mile times.
Ed A.
First perform a compression and leakdown test.
If not within factory spec or with one bar cylinder variance, then reinstall your old spark plugs and close your hood...
Without compression you will never make power.
Put some Chevron Techron in your gas tank...run a few tanks with it.
This should begin to clean your injectors.
Run minimum 91 octane, but better 93 octane.
Not looking for hidden power in the octane but more the detergents and additives that first tier high octane gas contains.
Always run first tier gas and your fuel delivery system will be clean
Check the engine for vacuum leaks.
Leaks reduce power.
If all proves true then tune the engine to factory specs.
M104 check the spark coil output, and replace plugs and wires.
M103 check the coil output, replace plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor.
Properly tuned a M103 or M104 will do mid seven second 0-60 times and low 16 second / high 80 , low ninety MPH 1/4 mile times.
Ed A.
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03-28-2010, 01:51 PM
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e400
There must be a way to get 50 hp and 60 torque or so for under $1500. How much horsepower will a new ECU give me?
Cant i get about 10 from cold air intake (my car runs between 90 and 100 degrees celcius usually)
And then another 10 or so from a full new exhaust system?
Cant i get about 10 from cold air intake (my car runs between 90 and 100 degrees celcius usually)
And then another 10 or so from a full new exhaust system?
03-28-2010, 02:48 PM
#9
ECU Modifications do not give any HP either. These engines are tuned for torque.
The car already has a cold air intake if you have looked. So no you can't. This is not a Honda Civic.
Exhaust system you could maybe get 12-15hp with the precats hollowed out and the main cat replaced with a reputable performance high flow one.
The car already has a cold air intake if you have looked. So no you can't. This is not a Honda Civic.
Exhaust system you could maybe get 12-15hp with the precats hollowed out and the main cat replaced with a reputable performance high flow one.
03-28-2010, 04:31 PM
#10
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I do believe I said we have cold-air intakes, right? I'm not crazy?
This is a Thermal Cycle engine. The efficiency of the engine is limited by its temperature.
2300K for gasoline is ideal. Our engines are specced for about 85-95C (358-368K).
Therefore, we get about 15.5% thermal efficiency. In an idealized example, 38% thermal efficiency is lost to the Exhaust system, 36% lost to the cooling system (radiator), and about 6% is lost to mechanical friction.
Long story short, heat or lack thereof is the enemy. Try to isolate ambient engine bay heat from getting into your intake air. Also, try and insulate all the intake carrier components that bring the cooler air to the engine block.
ECU tuning (according to some shops) can be done, but it is a niche market as these cars are using KE Jetronic II as fuel management and its not like you can just change fuel maps.
Sub 1500$ horsepower? I'd do a rear diff swap and just fake it that way.
Exhaust Caveat:
Unrestricted exhaust (lower backpressure) usually increases HP at the expense of torque. Pick your battles.
My research goal is to get all the specs for the m104 powered r129 320SL and see what is different between the cars. For one, I know it has a 3.69 rear diff and I believe less restrictive exhaust.
Here are two replies I got from Veloce Performance Tuning (sponsor here):
This is a Thermal Cycle engine. The efficiency of the engine is limited by its temperature.
2300K for gasoline is ideal. Our engines are specced for about 85-95C (358-368K).
Therefore, we get about 15.5% thermal efficiency. In an idealized example, 38% thermal efficiency is lost to the Exhaust system, 36% lost to the cooling system (radiator), and about 6% is lost to mechanical friction.
Long story short, heat or lack thereof is the enemy. Try to isolate ambient engine bay heat from getting into your intake air. Also, try and insulate all the intake carrier components that bring the cooler air to the engine block.
ECU tuning (according to some shops) can be done, but it is a niche market as these cars are using KE Jetronic II as fuel management and its not like you can just change fuel maps.
Sub 1500$ horsepower? I'd do a rear diff swap and just fake it that way.
Exhaust Caveat:
Unrestricted exhaust (lower backpressure) usually increases HP at the expense of torque. Pick your battles.
My research goal is to get all the specs for the m104 powered r129 320SL and see what is different between the cars. For one, I know it has a 3.69 rear diff and I believe less restrictive exhaust.
Here are two replies I got from Veloce Performance Tuning (sponsor here):
Originally Posted by Message 1
Brett:
You will get ~10% increase in hp and tq. We alter the way the car delivers the power as well. In other words your tq band is broader and more accessible over a wider range. Better throttle response and removed speed limiter are also part of the package.
The cost is $695, and there is a 2 year warranty on our work.
Let me know if you have any other questions, but I really think that you will enjoy the way your car responds after tuning. I would also suggest getting a K&N filter, as this will help the car breathe better.
You will get ~10% increase in hp and tq. We alter the way the car delivers the power as well. In other words your tq band is broader and more accessible over a wider range. Better throttle response and removed speed limiter are also part of the package.
The cost is $695, and there is a 2 year warranty on our work.
Let me know if you have any other questions, but I really think that you will enjoy the way your car responds after tuning. I would also suggest getting a K&N filter, as this will help the car breathe better.
Originally Posted by Message 2
Brett:
Yes it can be. If I am not mistaken ECU's from that vintage require actual chip replacement, rather than a flash. But it is possible to get you some more power and delimit it. My software guys have been around a while and have done many of these, back in the day.
Let me know if you have other questions.
Yes it can be. If I am not mistaken ECU's from that vintage require actual chip replacement, rather than a flash. But it is possible to get you some more power and delimit it. My software guys have been around a while and have done many of these, back in the day.
Let me know if you have other questions.
Last edited by Saijin_Naib; 03-28-2010 at 04:41 PM.
03-28-2010, 08:51 PM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
I'm an old guy that lives by certain rules about making power...
"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go ? "
You want to spend $1500 and get 50HP...
1500/50 = 30...so $30.00 per HP...not even close, cost more then that in the sixties.
Look to spend at the minimum $100.00+ per horsepower...
Cheaper to sell your I6 124 and purchase a V8 124 like a 400E...
03-28-2010, 09:33 PM
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Mosselman kit for the m104 was about 7500$ US IF/WHEN you could find it.
TurboTechnics kit is likely around the same.
I think Roman/Pumpish is making kits (http://www.turbobanditen.se/shop/sho...=95&head_id=91) but his Stage 1 kit translates to roughly 16,000 US.
TurboTechnics kit is likely around the same.
I think Roman/Pumpish is making kits (http://www.turbobanditen.se/shop/sho...=95&head_id=91) but his Stage 1 kit translates to roughly 16,000 US.
03-29-2010, 12:37 PM
#16
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Mosselman kit for the m104 was about 7500$ US IF/WHEN you could find it.
TurboTechnics kit is likely around the same.
I think Roman/Pumpish is making kits (http://www.turbobanditen.se/shop/sho...=95&head_id=91) but his Stage 1 kit translates to roughly 16,000 US.
TurboTechnics kit is likely around the same.
I think Roman/Pumpish is making kits (http://www.turbobanditen.se/shop/sho...=95&head_id=91) but his Stage 1 kit translates to roughly 16,000 US.
03-29-2010, 12:41 PM
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03-29-2010, 12:47 PM
#18
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Don't thank me, thank Roman/Pumpish
If there is one crazy ******* I trust to make a w124 throw down insane horsepower, it is a guy that eats onions raw and screams TURBO TURBO TURBO as he does pushups.
I mean christ, he welds with no goggles and drives WITH welding googles. Bat-**** crazy, but you can't argue with his results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYUojlM0NkM
Watch that spedometer. I get goosebumps.
If there is one crazy ******* I trust to make a w124 throw down insane horsepower, it is a guy that eats onions raw and screams TURBO TURBO TURBO as he does pushups.
I mean christ, he welds with no goggles and drives WITH welding googles. Bat-**** crazy, but you can't argue with his results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYUojlM0NkM
Watch that spedometer. I get goosebumps.
03-29-2010, 04:39 PM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Don't thank me, thank Roman/Pumpish
If there is one crazy ******* I trust to make a w124 throw down insane horsepower, it is a guy that eats onions raw and screams TURBO TURBO TURBO as he does pushups.
I mean christ, he welds with no goggles and drives WITH welding googles. Bat-**** crazy, but you can't argue with his results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYUojlM0NkM
Watch that spedometer. I get goosebumps.
If there is one crazy ******* I trust to make a w124 throw down insane horsepower, it is a guy that eats onions raw and screams TURBO TURBO TURBO as he does pushups.
I mean christ, he welds with no goggles and drives WITH welding googles. Bat-**** crazy, but you can't argue with his results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYUojlM0NkM
Watch that spedometer. I get goosebumps.
Watching his speedo and counting.( 1001, 1002, 1003... ) it appeared that he reached 100MPH/165KMH in about 9.5 seconds..
Assuming about a 4000 lb car with driver and fuel, the engine is making around 425-450 RWP...
Very quick and a great build, but much less then the 600HP-900HP he has claimed...
Every chassis has limits and the 124 will not handle much more then around 450 RWP
03-29-2010, 06:17 PM
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97R129-01W163-94E320-93500E
Also, note that there is no such thing as cheap fast MB, only cheap MB owners who want fast MB!
Good luck on your planned cheap modifications.
Last edited by edcarls; 03-29-2010 at 06:24 PM.
03-29-2010, 10:02 PM
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e400
Yeah i know of the TurboBandit website. I have been looking at that for a long time but the problem is..the cheapest turbo kit on there is running for like 15 grand or something?
But if you watch the videos on his youtube channel "PUMPISH" you can see how fast the car is. It runs 0-200 km/h (0-124 mph) in about 12-13 seconds which is faster than the 2004 E55 amg which runs about a 14.7 0-200.
If you guys still don't understand how fast that really is..then lets put it this way.
The mercedes that he has easily runs with ferarri's, vipers, ETC.
And yes you can get a used mosselman turbo kit for the M104 engine for maybe $3500-$4000, but i do understand it is hard to come by those.
Also the Mercedes is a great car, but not PERFECT! There are definately ways to add hp, cut shift times, and, maybe even lowering 0-60 into the 6s without spending thousands.
Whether a custom ECU does add hp or not, it will still cut down the response time. Then tune the ECU so it thinks there is more air in the engine. Then change your fuel mixture.
Also if you change the gear ratio's, it will slow down the top speed, but can make a huge difference in acceleration.
Don't forget that I-6's are some of the most easily tuned engines ever made. Unlike most cars our engine bases' have plenty of room to stuff parts in there.
I've also been looking at getting the 5.0L V8 from the 500E, but idk how much that would cost.
Any ideas or comments on how to gain hp or torque than please post a reply.
Thanks everyone who has left a reply or two. =)
But if you watch the videos on his youtube channel "PUMPISH" you can see how fast the car is. It runs 0-200 km/h (0-124 mph) in about 12-13 seconds which is faster than the 2004 E55 amg which runs about a 14.7 0-200.
If you guys still don't understand how fast that really is..then lets put it this way.
The mercedes that he has easily runs with ferarri's, vipers, ETC.
And yes you can get a used mosselman turbo kit for the M104 engine for maybe $3500-$4000, but i do understand it is hard to come by those.
Also the Mercedes is a great car, but not PERFECT! There are definately ways to add hp, cut shift times, and, maybe even lowering 0-60 into the 6s without spending thousands.
Whether a custom ECU does add hp or not, it will still cut down the response time. Then tune the ECU so it thinks there is more air in the engine. Then change your fuel mixture.
Also if you change the gear ratio's, it will slow down the top speed, but can make a huge difference in acceleration.
Don't forget that I-6's are some of the most easily tuned engines ever made. Unlike most cars our engine bases' have plenty of room to stuff parts in there.
I've also been looking at getting the 5.0L V8 from the 500E, but idk how much that would cost.
Any ideas or comments on how to gain hp or torque than please post a reply.
Thanks everyone who has left a reply or two. =)
03-29-2010, 10:09 PM
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e400
I'd like to see more then a You Tube from Roman..more like some timed event..
Watching his speedo and counting.( 1001, 1002, 1003... ) it appeared that he reached 100MPH/165KMH in about 9.5 seconds..
Assuming about a 4000 lb car with driver and fuel, the engine is making around 425-450 RWP...
Very quick and a great build, but much less then the 600HP-900HP he has claimed...
Every chassis has limits and the 124 will not handle much more then around 450 RWP
Watching his speedo and counting.( 1001, 1002, 1003... ) it appeared that he reached 100MPH/165KMH in about 9.5 seconds..
Assuming about a 4000 lb car with driver and fuel, the engine is making around 425-450 RWP...
Very quick and a great build, but much less then the 600HP-900HP he has claimed...
Every chassis has limits and the 124 will not handle much more then around 450 RWP
03-29-2010, 10:11 PM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Zach
You just repeat the same stuff over and over again..
Maybe because you think it will eventually become reality..
God has yet to create a 124 chassis that will run with a Ferrari or a Viper...
Don't believe everything you see on You Tube...
Your comments on the M104 ECU shows how ignorant you are of what the HFM system is in the M104...not much to tune.
Is the 300E 2.8 your first car?
Stuffing parts in a M103 or M104...????
How bizarre...
Easy to tune?
Not even easy to maintain factory spec on an old not maintained 124, let alone performance.
You just repeat the same stuff over and over again..
Maybe because you think it will eventually become reality..
God has yet to create a 124 chassis that will run with a Ferrari or a Viper...
Don't believe everything you see on You Tube...
Your comments on the M104 ECU shows how ignorant you are of what the HFM system is in the M104...not much to tune.
Is the 300E 2.8 your first car?
Stuffing parts in a M103 or M104...????
How bizarre...
Easy to tune?
Not even easy to maintain factory spec on an old not maintained 124, let alone performance.
