narf

Hello.

I have a W211 E55 and I have come to the conclusion that I need to upgrade the current Logic7 audio system. I sat in the back seat the other day (first time since i bought the car 6 months ago), and though the sound is alright up front, it really is unbrearable in the back. Also, at some frequencies it seams, I sometimes hear distortion from the center speaker (mostly whilst listening to classical music, even at relatively low volumes; yet this does not present when listening to electronic music- house, ambient, etc).

Anyway, im not looking to only fix the little things, we're going for an all out upgrade.

Now, I'd like to keep the head unit, though I suppose everything else will have to go.

My problem is that im poor. So the upgrade will have to take place in stages. As opposed to buying one component at a time and having it sit in the garage for a year until i have all that i need, i'd ilke to install components as i acquire them. As for the equipment... well, i'd like only the best. Not a good combo, i know...

I had a chance to listen to Focal speakers the other day, and was very impressed, and want these in my car. After much browsing and reading, i think the Focal K2 Power 165KP is the speaker set for me. These would go in the front and rear doors.

My questions are as follows.

- What speakers should i replace the center and rear shelf (as i understand they are 80mm speakers... or 3.15"). Is it possible to obtain good speakers (if any) in this size? Should I leave them alone, or should i disconnect them? The current ones sound like 2 dimensional cellphone speakers played through tin cans.

- I thought i would replace the stock 260mm (10") subwoofer in the rear shelf with a Focal. Though i haven't heard one play, how bad could it be? Shoud i be thinking about something else? I've noticed that there is quite a bias on these forums for JL Audio subs. I want more bass. It should dig a little deeper and hit a little harder, but i dont want or need oh-my-god-my-kidneys-are-resonating-bass.

- Do I need to have an enclosure for the sub? If i understand things correctly, the stock sub in the logic 7 package just hangs in the rear shelf, using the entire trunk as an enclosure. Eventually i intend to custom make an enclosure for it that hangs right underneath the shelf in the trunk (i love this one: linky I hope to achieve something similar) This hasn't found its way very high on my list of priorities, though i have suspisions that an enclosure is neccessary for high quality bass.

- What should i power everything with. I understand the stock amp is a big nono (an underpowered nono?), and might not even be able to power the aftermarket speakers. What kind of hardware do i need? 2 4-channel amps? (one channel for each of the doors, one for center, one for rear shelf and two bridged channels for the sub)? I dont know much about this, so i dont know if my logic works. Also, how much power should i be looking for?

- How does it all connect? Is there an aux on the head unit that can be used, or does the signal have to be yoinked from the current amp? What are people doing? Are they using this aux for two-channel audio only? Or are they using the signal from the stock unit for multi-channel sound?

Or are people adding a separate multi-channel decoder?




And my last question. In what order should i be doing all this?

Speakers first, then amps, then sub? Or what? Will the stock amp be able to drive the aftermaket speakers at all until it is replaced? Or should i put in new amps first? Sould i start with the center and rear shelf speakers - in a system that is already only bearable, these two areas are really bad...

I also realize that at some point ill need a JL Cleansweep or a similar product to get rid of the EQ trickery of the Logic7 system. The question is - at what point?

I'd appreciate any insight of the many gurus that frequent this board.

Thanks for reading

//Richard

evilb

Hey Richard,

I see one big problem in what you're trying to do here: you say you're "poor" and need to do this one component at a time That's a recipe for disaster when replacing components of a factory stereo system.

What you NEED, if you're talking an all-out upgrade (at a minimum) is the following:

1. Replacement head unit (Alpine, Pioneer, etc.)
2. 2pr 6.5" Component Sets (MB Quart, Dynaudio, etc.)
3. 1 10" Subwoofer, placed in trunk. Sealed enclosure.
4. 1 4 channel amplifier, preferably 75Wx4 RMS at a minimum.
5. 1 mono subwoofer amplifier (depending on sub choice, 300W to 1000W RMS)
6. Twisted pair speaker wires, 2AWG or 0AWG power wire, twisted pair RCA's.

The problem with a car like this, or any car for that matter, is that when you start replacing factory tuned components, you need power to back them up. You also need a source unit that is made for aftermarket equipment, because if you use the stock MB unit, you're just rigging up your system and it will p!ss you off that you've spent all of this money on, for example, a nice component set that now sounds like crap.

I've done a ton of stereo systems, was in the industry for 5 years in sales, and have a lot of very close friends that do this for a living. It's nearly impossible to replace pieces one at a time and have anything that sounds decent. Until you have the funds for the whole deal, I would recommend just dealing with the stock goods until you can.

This is a car that retails for ~$90k plus, so if you start replacing components, they need to be damn good replacements IMHO.

Some recommendations..

Head Unit: Alpine. I've always used Alpine, but now my friends "in the know" are starting to use some of the new Pioneer units with great success. Just make sure it has 4V or 5V pre-outs (3 sets) and sub controls and hopefully an adjustable 11 to 14 band EQ.

Components: MB Quart Q Series. I've run their Q series 6.5 (QSD) in all of my cars for the past 8 years. By far the best speaker I've ever run. You can get these for around $400/pr on eBay, but they retail around $1200-$1600/pr.

Center Speaker: Unless you're doing an in-dash or TV's in the back, this is a useless speaker for stereo music reproduction. Waste of time to replace IMHO. Stick with the basics. I've always hated receivers, whether they are home or car, that add soundfield-style processing to 2 channel music. If you're listening to a live concert in Dolby Digital, that's one thing, but a CD you're picking up at Best Buy, or downloading from a Torrent is going to be 2 channels and 2 channels only.

Rear Shelf: All speakers -- byebye! The holes in the rear deck are perfect for getting a lot of blocked-off sound from your trunk, which should now have 1 high-power 10" subwoofer (JL10W7, Orion HCCA, etc.), or 2 high power 12" subwoofers. If you want to do some cutting into the rear shelf (which I don't recommend), then add another set of 6.5" midbass drivers that will run off of your rear 6.5" component set. No tweets on the rear shelf, though.

Amplifiers: I've used Orion, Rockford, Soundstream, and JL Audio. I'm a big fan of the new JL stuff. Very nice. Soundstream did it first with their Van Gogh series, and I loved those amplifiers (virtually identical to the new JL amps). Very clean sound. Not a big fan of Rockford anymore. Lots of hum from the RCA's and power-on noise.

Subwoofers: If you're running only 1 10" sub, make it a monster with high excursion, run a sealed enclosure, and give it a TON of power. A JL10W7 with 1000W RMS going to it sounds awesome. Sealed enclosure keeps it all tight and defined, w/o the boominess. But, if you listen to RAP you might like it real boomy. I prefer accuracy over noise. I listen to hard rock/metal, so for FAST and very technical music, sealed is the ONLY way to go

This is turning into a long post... my boredom on vacation has gotten the best of me

Shoot me a response if you have any questions or if you have any equipment in mind. I would be happy to help or give you my opinion on your equipment choices.

Take care,
Brad

evilb

Re-read your post and want to add a few things..

JL's are, and always will be, overrated and over-priced. Have you seen their home subs? $6000+ for a home subwoofer. They're smoking the REAL good shiat!

High end, high excursion, thick rubber surrounds, huge magnets, high power handling. You will get your best bass from this. Unfortunately that doesn't come from a free-air subwoofer, which is what currently hangs from the rear shelf of your E55. An enclosure below it may be feasable, but I would worry about the weight of the box (needs to be double braced for heavy, high excursion subs) on the rear shelf at that point. Some cool stuff can be done with fiberglass to take up less trunk space, but this costs money...

Best way is to have an aftermarket head unit. You will need 2 pairs of RCA's for a 4 channel amp (which will take up 2 pre-outs), and 1 pair of RCA's for the sub(s) amp (which will take another set of pre's). Any other way is just being rigged. Unfortunately if keeping the stock head unit, you will sacrifice sound quality and tunability. A lot of it.

That's all for now

Brad

rob13572468

just to add a couple points here...

first of all, as evilb said, use a 10" subwoofer, put it in a sealed box and shape it to fit under the rear deck (e.g. wide and shallow). free-air subwoofers are a compromise at best: automakers love them because they do not decrease cargo space numbers but bass output and response suffers in turn. jl audio subs are excellent for this and while i would say that jl tends to be quite popular in these forums i wouldnt say that its not justified. JL was the first company to build a subwoofer optimized for a small sealed box. before them a 10" sub needed a 2.25 cubic foot ported box to have decent response and output. the 10W6 produced amazing sounding bass from a 0.75 cu ft sealed box. of course nowadays everyone makes subwoofers like this but jl was the first. in choosing your subwoofer pick one that has similar properties. there are plenty of excellent brands to choose from.

on the subject of the speakers you really need to decide what type of system you want to build. some of the best sounding mobile audio systems *ever* were 2.1 (e.g. front mid/tweeter combo in each door and a 10" sub). alternately you could upgrade the whole system as the surround and center speaker are the least expensive parts. ideally the best upgrade route is to change the center to a 4"/tweeter combo and the rear surrounds to 4" midrange (no tweeter). proper center channel should have a range of 400-20000hz and rear surround should be 400-5000 hz bandpass. the distortion you hear is likely the result of the existing 3.5" speakers not being able to handle lower frequencies and upgrading to 4" will help.

finally the source is the trickiest part. the ideal solution (besides changing everything) is to keep the HU and run new amplifiers and speakers but there are no current most compatible processors. because of his you will need to keep the existing amplifier and downconvert the outputs to line level and feed them to aftermarket amps. the cleansweep does an excellent job at this but is by no means the only way: you can simply use several line-out converters and place one on each output of the factory amplifier and do your own equalization.

evilb

Good points there, Rob.

One other thing. I ran Diamond Audio 12" subs... can't recall the model # but it was their top line. Maybe the D12? Anyway, they only required .75 cubic feet of airspace in a sealed enclosure, and sounded incredible. So, there are small enclosure options for larger subs out there.

Keep in mind that a 12" sub will sound better than a 10" sub in almost every situation. The low frequency response will extend lower, and your bass will be deeper. Now, if you ran *3* 10" subs, that would sound incredibly tight and very very good. But, that doesn't sound like an option for you

Have a good day!
Brad

spinsonic

ok, guys... need some expert advice here. I just had my system redone and to my suprise, it doesnt sound that much better. It's now bumping hard, but lacks the clean sound that i was hoping to get. Below is what i have installed, any advice into making it sound like a symphony hall is appreciated!

(1) JL W6v2 12" sub
(1) JL Cleansweep
(1) 300/4 JL amp
(1) 500/1 JL amp.


Problems:
1.Bass sounds too loud and distorted (not tight sounding)
2.Engine noise coming through spreakers
3.When listening at low volume, rear speakers and sub completely shuts off.
4.When skipping to next track on cd, rear speakers and sub completely shuts off
5.When turning off engine, there is a loud “thump” sound coming from the speakers.
6. Lack of highs

ldangeli

1. Amp isn't tuned correctly.
2. Engine wine is due to incorrect ground.
3. Amp(s) not tuned correctly.
4. You may have a wiring issue and or amps not tuned correctly.
5. What type of headuint are you using? Remote turn on issue
6. Did you leave the stock speakers?

Where did you have this installed and who tuned this system? YOU SHOULD NOT BE HAVING THESE ISSUES.

spinsonic

thanks ldangeli, appreciate it! come to think of it, i doubt they even took the time to tune the system. seem like they just want to move customers in and out quickly. i was pretty suprise it only took 1 day to do this installaton. The Good news is that they are willing to redo the entire thing. since the woofer box size, is not to my liking.

anyways, I'm using the stock head unit, along with stock mids and highs. i'm thinking about switching them out to mb quart, but am concern that it wont make much difference. another concern that i have is the cleansweep. they've installed 2 volume controls (one for sub volume, one for speaker volume) and have ask me to use these, instead of the volume on the head unit. Well, this is a real pain in the *** because the the two knobs are located in the center console, making volume adjustment difficult. also, i am use to using the buttons on the steering wheels.

switching out the head unit is not going to work for me. im hoping to get some decent sound, not really expecting it to sound like a competition show car.


your thoughts?


here is a picture of the setup.



thanks in advance!

ldangeli

Aye, I hope you didn't pay too much for the setup. Did you want vinyl, or did they just not have the carpet to match your trunk? IMHO, JL amps are nice, but not show pieces, they are a little plain to be "Highlighted" Don't get me wrong, It's nice, but it sounds like you may have been fleeced a little.

I would without a doubt, go back and have the tune everything. The cleansweep is for your FO system. If you don't keep the headunit, you can get rid of it. It all depends on what you intend on retaining, what your ultimate goal is, and how deep your pockets are...

Kompressed230

I am looking to replace the headunit in the 2005 E55 AMG. Due to the Harmon Kardon systems fiber optics, must I replace everything with this swap? I have heard that you can replace the head and utilize the factory amp from some and heard that everything must be replaced by others. Has anyone done a head unit swap in this vehicle, and if so, did you replace everything.

spinsonic

vinyle was my idea. I wanted to have them suede the entire trunk to match the cls55 interior, but after seeing the worksmanship, i decided not too. keeping the head unit is a must, so that is the reason why i went with cleansweep. my goals is just to get some decent sound, not a competition sound system. i would be happy just to get it sound like a stock lexus system!

after talking to a few folks here, it seems like the system needs to be tuned and maybe replace all the stock speakers.

ldangeli

Definitely tune it. It should sound sweet as is. Make sure they really tun it.

narf

thank you so much for all the informative responses... i gave up monitoring this thread when nobody had posted for almost 2 weeks (i too, was bored on vacation )

Yeah, im a broke student (bought the car used in germany with savings from the past years), and all my money goes to rent, gas, insurance and food (get this, i pay $8000/year in insurance alone )

Subwoofer
I will be running a 10" sub in the rear shelf. It seems like the best option, as there already is a 10" free-air hanging there as part of the stock setup. This seems to me as the most logical choice whilst trying to preserve as much trunk space as possible...

nope, i want my bass nice and tight... i listen to a whole variety of music, and boominess is generally a nono... (true, its fun for rap, but not for classical, rock metal, and well... everything else )

I was considering the 10w6v2, because it has slightly smaller enclosure reccomendations, but it seems as though "only going for 1 10" woofer" is already pushing it, maybe i should forget it and go for the 10w7...

Can i build this enclosure myself (and get good results)? I realize everything sound is an art (that i very much appreciate), but seeing as it will be a sealed enclosure, how wrong could i go (i mean, its got no holes )

Headunit I know that replacing the head unit would yield the best sound, but this is the only sacrifice that im not willing to make. I like the look, feel, and functionality of the integrated stock unit (that, and the fact that its not going to get stolen) (yeah, the nav sucks, but on the upside, it displays the amg logo when i start the car).

Is this really a good alternative? Does the stock processor/hu do any form of speed dependent or volume depended equalization? I assume that would be very bad...

Speakers
Now this is what im talking about 400/pair

Should i forget the focals? Are the Q-series that good?

Amplifiers

It would seem that the Soundstream Van Gogh series has been discontinued. (I assume you know this from your using past tense - loved). Is there a good replacement in their current lineup? Or is JL the only way to go here as well?


I appreciate everyone lending me their time and expertise on this matter...

THANK YOU!


//Richard.

hakaida442

I don't like mb quart or focals. Try listening to a set of rainbows or dynaudio components.

ldangeli

If you're spending that money forget all four of the above. Try a set of Alpine X-Type pro's, coming out. True audiophile level at an excellent price.

narf

d'oh! I was hoping to find some sort of consensus regarding what speakers to put in... its hard to audition speakers mounted up against a big wall in a huge (comparatively) room that are meant for the smallest of spaces...

I want clear, crisp, transparent sound, and have heard nothing but excellent reviews about focals, and good reviews about mb quart.

Any other recommendations to be made?

Thanks,

R

ldangeli

Go with the Focals, however, don't expect the radio of a cheap amp to unleash their performance. Focal is ok, but there is a lot out there, better quality, same money, IMO.

hakaida442

Alpine makes a better set of speakers than the Rainbow Reference Line? This I have to check out. If it's on par with the profi-line then I'll give alpine credit for coming a long way.

ldangeli

Umm.. yep.. F1, the new competition line.. I would say YEP. IMHO. I am not a big fan of RAC. There is so much more out there, especially for that price tag. Now, if you read his first post, he's BROKE. RAC is out of contect for him.

narf

I will be sticking with the stock HU and using CDs and an iPod as sources. I will however be driving the new speakers with new amps (ive heard jl audios are the best for the money, if you have other recommendations, i welcome them).

what do you recommend other than focals?

ldangeli

How much are you looking to spend?

narf

upper limit around $500 on front components. i was hoping to get away with about 350 for an amp to drive them...

c32used

It sounds to me like the power wires and RCAs or speaker wires might be running on same side of vehicle... if so things like you stated can happen but not sure if all you say will happen...

c32used

If its anything like mine well I replaced only the HU and added 2 RCAs and 1 four channel AMP(to use OEM Bose door speakers) and 1 mono AMP(for subs in ported enclosure)(both in the trunk since the speaker wires from my Bose AMP were used to feed the door speakers)

bobgodd

Any updates on this install? I am in the same boat and would like to upgrade the sound in my E55 (w211) in stages all on a budget.