delbomber

This is hilarious...absolutely hysterical. Who cares which car is faster, neither of these cars are designed to be speedsters...while I'm inclined to say the C230 IS faster, the fact of the matter is that the C240 is a drab, character-less box that drives like a rowboat... and the C230 is a head-turning, fun, athletic work of engineering.

ctC230K

looool you just contradicted yourself in your own three line post!!!!

nukblazi

Compared to the E55 of course it's **** slow. As you know, slow is relative in a road course. I've had to back off of Cobra's to not punt them off track and had a hard time shaking a miata.

I think the video will serve as proof once I've taken vids of the same races and the results are the same. It's for fun and a good excuse to get in trouble.

Respectfully,
Tom

delbomber

Did I miss something? I'm agreeing with you...I think you got the wrong guy...

ctC230K

but you said who cares which is faster then you said the c230 is faster lol...

delbomber

Just because it doesn't factor into which one of these cars deserves to be driven, it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion... :p

I was saying speed should not be factor in the desirability of these two cars...there is simply no contest in any other sense between these two. It doesn't matter which car is faster because I wouldn't be caught dead driving a C240. But on top of being nicer all around, I DO happen to think the C230 is faster...which separates the two cars even further.

mikefl52

This thread got well and truly hijacked

The facts according to MB (seems pretty clear to me and this doesn't take into account the superior handling for those who want to go round corners):

delbomber

That's the fastest 0-60 time I've seen published for the sedan. Bonus! And besides...

He started it!

The discussion probably deserves its own thread, although I'm not sure it will /can ever be resolved...in the minds of C240 defenders, that is. :v

ctC230K

eh mine does 0-60 in 7 flat :p

nuclearhappines

water injection.

Water is injected into the cylinders (or into the intake manifold, or before that in the intake plumbing and eventually to the cylinders).

Water stays in it's liquid atomized form when it reaches the combustion chamber.
When the ignition event occurs the water is flashed into vapour (steam) extracting a very large amount of heat out of the combustion process, therefore cooling the cylinders from the inside, reducing the combustion temperature, reducing peak cylinder pressure , and as a side effect - steam cleaning the engine and the exhaust valves (Which may result in increasing compression because of a tighter chamber).

Water replaces oxygen when injected into the engine, this results in a LOSS of power (as an isolated incident). However the side effects of water injection (namely the lowered temps, and the lower cylinder pressures) means that either more boost, or more timing advance can be introduced into the motor within the acceptable limits of peak cylinder pressure. (ie you can run more boost/timing = more power without popping your motor, melting your internals, meeting detonation or causing preignition).

This shows water injection being used indirectly as an octane boost (or with the same results as an octane booster).

The other use for water injection is the use of a water/alcohol mix. The water is usually mixed in with ethanol or methanol (i think around 114-117octane) usually in a 50/50 mix. This mixture should be injected in the intake piping as far away from the TB as possible. The alcohol has a very high boiling point and will vapourise as soon as it is introduced into the inlet charge, therefore the alcohol will extract heat out of inlet air charge before it reaches the combustion chamber. The farther back before the TB you inject the alcohol, the longer the time you give it to cool the charge. This alcohol/water charge also replaces oxygen that could've been introduced into the combustion, however the colder charger may make up for this loss of volume, because the density is increased via the cooling effect of the alcohol and the net DIRECT result of this is dependant on the application, the coolin, the amount sprayed... etc

The indirect effect is that:

1- the extra alcohol is fuel that has entered the chamber and it is a high octane fuel, generous water/alcohol injection can be used as supplimentary fuel for cars where the stock injectors are maxed by more boost wants to be introduced.

2- the alcohol is a higher octane fuel than what is injected via the injectors making it a good candidate for extra fueling and high boost as mentioned earlier (or more timing advance since you have a higher octane fuel mixture)

3- Dual cooling effects: cooling the inlet charge provides more power and farthens preignition events, in cylinder cooling (via the water) prevents knock, lowers peak cylinder pressure, and allows for more boost or more timing advance as mentioned earlier.

depending on weather you injecet water / methanol / or both you can either increase your octane, add more fuel, virtually upgrade your intercooler or combinations of those depending on the size of your injection and the mix.

....

this can be used to reduce heat soak.
this can be used to run FI applications slightly beyond their 'effeciency' limitations (such as running an M271 with 15psi pulleys) for race use only and to combat the side effects of higer IA-temps.
this can be used to advance timing and have more torque

....

water injection will require a smaller plug gap because the extra wetness might help the plug foul/missfire.

.....

even though the C230 runs a coil over plug setup, it also runs a BIG spark plug gap for a FI application. Say all C230's eventually develop a missfire problem (which one owner dynoed a 25hp loss because of on another board). Then it does make sense that the no FI car (The C240) is less prone to this type of problem because it has a less dense inlet charge to deal with. Say most every C230 you drove had this problem then you are comparing your car to one that is down 25hp and possibly heatsoaked on top of that.

just a thought... the fact that they were all slow, does NOT mean that they are all running right at their advertised hp ? does it ?

.....

history of water injection:

ww2 planes to get out of tight spots when they needed that extra boost in power.
old WI systems injected water streams (not fumes) before the turbo or s/c and relied on the turbo compressor blades or the S/C rotors to break up and atomize the water ... this eventually leads to premature failure of the turbo and s/c ... so if you want to try/mess with this...install it after the intercooler , but before the throttle body, and gap your plugs down a bit for it... if your car already runs a rich mixture from the factory stay conservative on the amount of methanol that you use.... if you can't adjust boost, timing then there is no real need for this mod....

-nuke

delbomber

Published, not posted.

That looks like an officially published spec, which makes it the fastest of those I've seen. I'm sure driver posted 0-60 time are or can be faster

Outland

If anyone is laughing, its at some poor saps who think an overweight and weezing six is going to be faster than a lighter car that has another 20+ HP. Maybe when you get around to testing this, it will be 130F in the shade, and the C240 will have big phat nitrous bottle in the trunk. Oh yeah, make sure and run the C240 in the lane with the tail wind.

Outland

It doesn't matter that you think the Gtech is inaccurate. The fact is that its repeatable. If the C240 can't get below 9 seconds on any run, and that same unit measured a C230 1.8 in the mid 8's, it doesn't matter if the real times are + or - 2 seconds either way.

CynCarvin32

The older M111 motor was strong and had serious torque. It may sound a bit like a cement mixer at times and vibrate but it really has serious power potential for a 4 cyl motor.

I am not trying to say a C230k is slow when stacked up next to an E55. The E55 is the complete oposite car. It has so much power the chassis has no clue what to do with it all. An 05 C230k has such a nice chassis that the car begs for more power.

I am having trouble getting this video off my digicam but I will get it done. I will need someoen to host the vid but I know that will be a non issue.

It was 95 is so-cal over the weekend and the C230k was ... errr..... REALLY slow. But then again to be fair every FI MB has this issue when it gets warm out. All but the 65's which have more than 2x the intercooling power of a CL600.

Don't get in trouble of over this! this is not worthy of a few points on your record!

CynCarvin32

when we post the video watch it a few times. C240 all the way. Heck ill take my E in for service and make a second video now that its warmer here in So-Cal. Something is alway not working on these cars. Its just a matter of whether or not you want to part with the vehicle for a week in order to get it fixed.

It is hard to say that a car is faster when it is 5-10 car lengths behind after a run from 60-130.

On my local road course a friend took a stock C230k (6-Speed) and the car did very well. He was fairly slow but the car was capable of carrying more speed in the corners than anyone else in his run group. Part of that was the driver part was the car. I remember that car being passed on the long back straight by nearly stock civics which have around 125hp.

CynCarvin32

Well your car is a C23 and all

come on just take the rest of the numbers off the back of that car! It looks so nice with no letters at all on the back. Very "german"

ctC230K

hahah... yeah, but no one has ever seen a C23 except for all those people i've passed on the highway lol! including the cops....
i really wish that guy from Mass with the c240 would post on here... he got owned so badly it was kinda sad

CynCarvin32

trouble is you never know if the other car is at WOT and how long they stay at WOT. many people just give up and lift as soon as they see the race go south.

The videos I have are of two cars that get an equal start and run at WOT until the speed limiter stopped us. No if's and's or but's involved.

delbomber

I have no doubt your videos are legit, but what do they prove? I saw Buster Douglas knock out Mike Tyson, good luck trying to convince anyone he was any good.

It simply defies logic that a heavier, less-aerodynamic, poorly geared car with less power and torque could beat a car with advantages in each of these areas at any speed under any conditions. I'm sure there are instances, but these are exceptions...

And let's say by some astronomical chance the 240's are faster overall, the 230 has still got it beat in every other area of desirability, unless you like driving on a cloud.

CynCarvin32

with all due respect I will say you are wrong. The C240 is faster from say 20-130 mph.... in every test. Gearing IS THE SAME SIR. Go look same trans same rear end same everything so take that out of the equation.

As for it being a cloud ya its soft but still kind of fun to drive. Soft with great shock valving is not a bad thing. If it were a GM car or an Infinity we could be in serious trouble if it had soft springs. I can tell you that I have watch C240's take out such cars a 2005 GTO's on tight twisting roads. Good driver in the GTO but a great driver in the C240. I know sounds far fetched ok ya it is but it did happen.

No doubt a C230k is more fun to drive but then again on a cold morning a C230k sounds a little cheap when you start it up. But guess which car i leased for my daily driver? C240 or C230? Of course I took the C230. After having it alligned with 1.8 degrees of negative camber and installing a set of C32 brakes front and back the C230 is kind of fun. Now do i i want to risk a pulley kit so i can beat a C240? Na is slow and i can deal with that

delbomber

Given that the 240 is offered only with a 5-speed and the C230 is optimized for the 6-, I respectfully disagree.

And you're right, both of these cars are slow...slower than just about anything anyone has tried to make fast, including the friggin' Corolla Sport. But then, who's driving the Corolla Sport and who's driving the Benz?

Cheers.

Outland

Some 03 and 04 1.8's had some sort of ECU problem that required the ECU to be flashed at the dealer- many owners reported the car felt livelier after the flash. Perhaps some of these engines were down on ponies from the factory. IIRC, the M271 variants are all identical except the pulley diameter and software.

Still, I'm not buying the C240 is faster ANYWHERE, except in a kick down situation, and the manual trans C230 stays in top gear

Outland

Just about any GM car is faster than the C240. Except some **** like a H2.

I will say this in defense of the much maligned C240- the 05 version is quite a nice drive, and handles easily as good as the older model sport package cars thanks to the 'direct control' changes for 05. And rides nicer too.

That said, I could never live with such slow car. A 4 maticC240 is almost dangerously slow. Toyota Echo's and a couple of Prius' were lapping me

I find it kinda funny that the M271 shares this characteristic with the M111. I would have thought that with all the whining from the dealers and media about the gravel sound the supercharged engines make when cold, MB would have found a work around. I kinda like it. It sounds so uncivilized when I start it up...if we take my car when we go to lunch or happy hour, my passengers(after asking how much the car costs) will sometimes ask if the car is OK. I reply its like a sprinter with a smoking habit- gotta clear the lungs before jumping off the line. The puzzeled looks turn to smiles when the sound goes away in 20 seconds, and the whine from the overdriven supercharger takes over, and they feel the healthy shove back in the seats.

With the 3.5L engine available now, and I were in the market, I wouldn't even consider the 1.8, to say nothing of the weezing 2.6 in the C240. But if it were up to weezing six vs healthy and frugal four, it would be the 1.8 no problem.

Outland

For the C240's NOT using laughing gas, this point happens early in any race. Then again, you may just have to drive this car all the time at WOT to keep up.

jedcred

Any easy way to tell if you need one?