Would you buy a MB if it said C180K for as much as a C230K?
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From: Los Angeles
2002 c230k
Would you buy a MB if it said C180K for as much as a C230K?
Do you think the public is as willing to pay the same price for a 1.8l as the 2.3l? I'm talking psychologically, not looking at the specs. MB might not want to bring the 1.8l engine to our attention as it brings back shades of underpowered BMW318is and seems too small to wear the MB badge here in the US. Any opinions?
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
I would not care what the model number was. What I would care about is a completely new engine from a company that has worse realiabilty than it's partner in crime, Chrysler. MB has never impressed me with their engineering. I bought one of the first 190's back in 1983 and it had a defect where the throttle linkage was too close to the exhaust manifold and on a hot day the ball/socket would expand and pop off. It took them many months to redesign it and eventually do a TSB. They gave me a new car under the first year of the CA lemon law and the new car needed a transmission after a week. I like the fact that the 2.3L motor has been out for many years, it's the best part of the C230K. In case anyone is keeping score, I'm up to 14 loaners in less than a year, I wonder what the record is.
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Well, as long as they kept the free coffee, donuts, cookies, and car washes, right, Buell?
I kind of understand MB's point - they just released the c230, and in one year, would have to show a reduction of a half of a liter. The US population (won't speak for Canucks) just won't understand that it's new, almost same hp, better hp/weight ratio, etc.
Having said that, it's a little cowardly to lie about the displacement. At least in the 240, they're lying by showing it smaller. I'm more offended about them dropping the mirror autodim feature.
I kind of understand MB's point - they just released the c230, and in one year, would have to show a reduction of a half of a liter. The US population (won't speak for Canucks) just won't understand that it's new, almost same hp, better hp/weight ratio, etc.
Having said that, it's a little cowardly to lie about the displacement. At least in the 240, they're lying by showing it smaller. I'm more offended about them dropping the mirror autodim feature.
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From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
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Originally posted by Buellwinkle
MB has never impressed me with their engineering.
MB has never impressed me with their engineering.
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally posted by tommy
Well, as long as they kept the free coffee, donuts, cookies, and car washes, right, Buell?
Well, as long as they kept the free coffee, donuts, cookies, and car washes, right, Buell?
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From: Los Angeles
2002 c230k
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
I would not care what the model number was. What I would care about is a completely new engine from a company that has worse realiabilty than it's partner in crime, Chrysler. MB has never impressed me with their engineering. I bought one of the first 190's back in 1983 and it had a defect where the throttle linkage was too close to the exhaust manifold and on a hot day the ball/socket would expand and pop off. It took them many months to redesign it and eventually do a TSB. They gave me a new car under the first year of the CA lemon law and the new car needed a transmission after a week. I like the fact that the 2.3L motor has been out for many years, it's the best part of the C230K. In case anyone is keeping score, I'm up to 14 loaners in less than a year, I wonder what the record is.
I would not care what the model number was. What I would care about is a completely new engine from a company that has worse realiabilty than it's partner in crime, Chrysler. MB has never impressed me with their engineering. I bought one of the first 190's back in 1983 and it had a defect where the throttle linkage was too close to the exhaust manifold and on a hot day the ball/socket would expand and pop off. It took them many months to redesign it and eventually do a TSB. They gave me a new car under the first year of the CA lemon law and the new car needed a transmission after a week. I like the fact that the 2.3L motor has been out for many years, it's the best part of the C230K. In case anyone is keeping score, I'm up to 14 loaners in less than a year, I wonder what the record is.
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From: Peoria IL
2003 MB C230 coupe
psychologically yes, i think there is a difference obvioulsy. but since we all here do in fact know the specs, then we can make an educated judgement.
am i the only one here who doesn't mind the new 1.8L engine (not only do i not mind, but i just don't care at all)? like i've said before, if i wanted power, i'd buy a used Z-3 or a new Nissan 350Z.
am i the only one here who doesn't mind the new 1.8L engine (not only do i not mind, but i just don't care at all)? like i've said before, if i wanted power, i'd buy a used Z-3 or a new Nissan 350Z.
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From: Peoria IL
2003 MB C230 coupe
oh, and with the supercharger, there's no way that the new 1.8L is too weak to be in the U.S. the whole notion of the new engine being weak at all is ridiculous. those who say otherwise are expecting alot of power out of a car that isn't meant for it. and it can certainly be modded to get the umph that is wanted. this car isn't a drag racer people. it's a sportY car not a sportS car.
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From: Nashua, NH
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MB has never impressed me with their engineering.
Your daughter has a Ford Mustang. How does that compare with your C230K on an engineering standpoint? Remember we're talking about engineering only, not necessarily dependability.
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally posted by mdp c230k
If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
Now add to all that a C180 with an all brand new engine and I don't know if I would have taken that huge of a risk. I might have been fooled by the C230 emblem and not even have thought about the new motor until the ink dried on the contract but if it said C180 I would have definetly scrutinized it more. Would I buy a C180 given what I know right now and what other cars are available, absolutely not, even it if mean washing my own car.
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From: Ashburn, VA
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Originally posted by mdp c230k
Did you read the question? I said psychologically, NOT specs. Does C180K sound weak or lesser of a car than C230K in peoples perception? If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
Did you read the question? I said psychologically, NOT specs. Does C180K sound weak or lesser of a car than C230K in peoples perception? If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
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From: Los Angeles
2002 c230k
Originally posted by vadim
I dunno... Does Audi4 1.8T sound weak? To some, yes, to others, no, some people couldn't care less...
I dunno... Does Audi4 1.8T sound weak? To some, yes, to others, no, some people couldn't care less...
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From: Peoria IL
2003 MB C230 coupe
power is not in the least bit related to price. that's quite ridiculous. any engineer knows that. now if you have two engines that involve the same engineering technology but one is more powerful than the other, then yes, price is related. but these are two different engines from an engineering standpoint. you cannot directly relate price. one cannot expect to pay less for the 1.8L and more for the 2.3L just because of the power when in fact the 1.8L is more advanced from an engineering position. I'm an electrical engineer, and it would be piece of cake to crank out of a fast less efficient, less reliable processor as compared to a slower, more efficient processor. and you'd better believe the slower more efficient processor would sell for the same amount as the fast less efficient one if not more. i guess what i'm saying is that we're to the point now where power and speed are almost limitless thanks to technology. you cannot complain when a less powerfull yet more efficient engine isn't cheaper than a more powerful yet older less efficient engine. anyway, that's just my take. thanks for listening
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2002 c230k
Originally posted by truelove79
power is not in the least bit related to price. that's quite ridiculous. any engineer knows that. now if you have two engines that involve the same engineering technology but one is more powerful than the other, then yes, price is related. but these are two different engines from an engineering standpoint. you cannot directly relate price. one cannot expect to pay less for the 1.8L and more for the 2.3L just because of the power when in fact the 1.8L is more advanced from an engineering position. I'm an electrical engineer, and it would be piece of cake to crank out of a fast less efficient, less reliable processor as compared to a slower, more efficient processor. and you'd better believe the slower more efficient processor would sell for the same amount as the fast less efficient one if not more. i guess what i'm saying is that we're to the point now where power and speed are almost limitless thanks to technology. you cannot complain when a less powerfull yet more efficient engine isn't cheaper than a more powerful yet older less efficient engine. anyway, that's just my take. thanks for listening
power is not in the least bit related to price. that's quite ridiculous. any engineer knows that. now if you have two engines that involve the same engineering technology but one is more powerful than the other, then yes, price is related. but these are two different engines from an engineering standpoint. you cannot directly relate price. one cannot expect to pay less for the 1.8L and more for the 2.3L just because of the power when in fact the 1.8L is more advanced from an engineering position. I'm an electrical engineer, and it would be piece of cake to crank out of a fast less efficient, less reliable processor as compared to a slower, more efficient processor. and you'd better believe the slower more efficient processor would sell for the same amount as the fast less efficient one if not more. i guess what i'm saying is that we're to the point now where power and speed are almost limitless thanks to technology. you cannot complain when a less powerfull yet more efficient engine isn't cheaper than a more powerful yet older less efficient engine. anyway, that's just my take. thanks for listening
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From: D/FW Texas
C230K
Anyone know what MB is doing overseas (not in the US) with the 1.8 vs the 2.3? Are they also dropping the 2.3?
I liked the wider torque band of the 2.3, pity it wasn't always there when you hit the gas....
I liked the wider torque band of the 2.3, pity it wasn't always there when you hit the gas....
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From: Peoria IL
2003 MB C230 coupe
Originally posted by mdp c230k
The original question was one of the publics perception of the difference, not the specs, as related to the acceptance of a small engine for the same price as the larger one. It would be like saying buy the new processor with 1.8billion transistors at 2Ghz over the old one with 2.3billion transistors at 2Ghz even if they both do the same flops. Just ask AMD why they are calling their chips by the new nomenclature, larger numbers are more impressive to the masses than are actual technical facts.
The original question was one of the publics perception of the difference, not the specs, as related to the acceptance of a small engine for the same price as the larger one. It would be like saying buy the new processor with 1.8billion transistors at 2Ghz over the old one with 2.3billion transistors at 2Ghz even if they both do the same flops. Just ask AMD why they are calling their chips by the new nomenclature, larger numbers are more impressive to the masses than are actual technical facts.
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From: SF Bay Area
2002 C230 K
Originally posted by raymond
Anyone know what MB is doing overseas (not in the US) with the 1.8 vs the 2.3? Are they also dropping the 2.3?
Anyone know what MB is doing overseas (not in the US) with the 1.8 vs the 2.3? Are they also dropping the 2.3?
Cheers, BT
Last edited by trench; Aug 2, 2002 at 04:50 PM.
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Originally posted by mdp c230k
Did you read the question? I said psychologically, NOT specs. Does C180K sound weak or lesser of a car than C230K in peoples perception? If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
Did you read the question? I said psychologically, NOT specs. Does C180K sound weak or lesser of a car than C230K in peoples perception? If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!
On topic, I suspect there are any number of people willing to pay the same price for a 2003 Coupe over a 2002 Coupe, irrespective of equipment. For those in the know who regularly stare at pump prices of $3.00+ per gal./liter, the 1.8L will be a welcome change, as it allegedly will be more fuel efficient. Keep in mind, MB sells more cars to European customers than American customers by a factor of 3:1 or more.
Volkswagen, and its upmarket cousin Audi, have charted their entire future on light displacement, 1.8L engines, and it doesn't appear to be hurting them.
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From: D/FW Texas
C230K
MB-Bob
I found an article in a South African newspaper about the annual Total Enconomy run, in which cars from various manufacturers are driven in varying real-world conditions by professional (racing or rally) drivers.
What strikes me is that a 1.8l engine would be considered "up-market" there, and most likely in Europe too. The "open" class starts at 2.3l and above - it's amazing what seeing 4.00 per litre for gas will do to engine sizes. THe average engine size there is about 1.4l. It seems to be only Americans that cannot do anything with less than 2.5l and 6 cylinders.
For those who're interested, look at the motoring page of the newspaper at
IOL Motoring
Interesting the number of BMW X5s and Minis in SA....
I found an article in a South African newspaper about the annual Total Enconomy run, in which cars from various manufacturers are driven in varying real-world conditions by professional (racing or rally) drivers.
What strikes me is that a 1.8l engine would be considered "up-market" there, and most likely in Europe too. The "open" class starts at 2.3l and above - it's amazing what seeing 4.00 per litre for gas will do to engine sizes. THe average engine size there is about 1.4l. It seems to be only Americans that cannot do anything with less than 2.5l and 6 cylinders.
For those who're interested, look at the motoring page of the newspaper at
IOL Motoring
Interesting the number of BMW X5s and Minis in SA....
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally posted by MB-BOB
mdp c230k, don't mind Buellwinkle. He's our resident MB troll.
mdp c230k, don't mind Buellwinkle. He's our resident MB troll.
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Not to start a war with you Buell. I just don't understand your lust for punishment. You obviously hate MB reliability, yet something irresistably draws you to buy them over and over and over.
The difference between you and a moth flying to a flame is that you get several do-over opportunities. I would have abandoned the brand after the first disappointment, but that's just me.
Look over your last 50 posts or so. Almost all of them start with something along the lines of, "Yea, it's a shame that..."
The difference between you and a moth flying to a flame is that you get several do-over opportunities. I would have abandoned the brand after the first disappointment, but that's just me.
Look over your last 50 posts or so. Almost all of them start with something along the lines of, "Yea, it's a shame that..."
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From: Obama Land
K Car
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
F*ck you! You lucked out and got one of the rare good ones or ignore the trips to the dealer. I have had 4 MBs and they all where the most unreliable cars I've ever owned, ever. And I average a new car per year specially now between 3 drivers. That doesn't mean I didn't like the cars, just a PITA and I would compare it to a Fiat. If MB ever made cars as reliable as Jaguar or Lexus they would waiting lists to buy them. It will be at least 10 more years until I erase enough of my memory to actually purchase another Benz.
F*ck you! You lucked out and got one of the rare good ones or ignore the trips to the dealer. I have had 4 MBs and they all where the most unreliable cars I've ever owned, ever. And I average a new car per year specially now between 3 drivers. That doesn't mean I didn't like the cars, just a PITA and I would compare it to a Fiat. If MB ever made cars as reliable as Jaguar or Lexus they would waiting lists to buy them. It will be at least 10 more years until I erase enough of my memory to actually purchase another Benz.
If the shoe fits.....
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From: Obama Land
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Originally posted by MB-BOB
Not to start a war with you Buell. I just don't understand your lust for punishment. You obviously hate MB reliability, yet something irresistably draws you to buy them over and over and over.
The difference between you and a moth flying to a flame is that you get several do-over opportunities. I would have abandoned the brand after the first disappointment, but that's just me.
Look over your last 50 posts or so. Almost all of them start with something along the lines of, "Yea, it's a shame that..."
Not to start a war with you Buell. I just don't understand your lust for punishment. You obviously hate MB reliability, yet something irresistably draws you to buy them over and over and over.
The difference between you and a moth flying to a flame is that you get several do-over opportunities. I would have abandoned the brand after the first disappointment, but that's just me.
Look over your last 50 posts or so. Almost all of them start with something along the lines of, "Yea, it's a shame that..."
Right on!!
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From: Diamond Bar, CA
W206 PHEV AMG
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
I know, how do you pass that up! If it wasn't for that I'ld be driving a Subie WRX, Audi A4 or Jag X.
I know, how do you pass that up! If it wasn't for that I'ld be driving a Subie WRX, Audi A4 or Jag X.
revstriker: i don't think buell even bought a MB before. if what he said is true, where are all the documents and pictures at? ever since i been on this board all the posts i see from buell are nothing but negative comments about MB.
Last edited by FrankW; Aug 2, 2002 at 05:57 PM.
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From: Los Angeles
2002 c230k
The best part is that my immediate family has owned 4 MBs in the past 12 years and not one of them has had any problems at all, knock on wood! (3 S class and my C230K)
MB-Bob, don't worry, I look at Buell as a source of comedy. His opinion carrys as much weight as wet toiletpaper. LOL...
MB-Bob, don't worry, I look at Buell as a source of comedy. His opinion carrys as much weight as wet toiletpaper. LOL...
