mdp c230k

Do you think the public is as willing to pay the same price for a 1.8l as the 2.3l? I'm talking psychologically, not looking at the specs. MB might not want to bring the 1.8l engine to our attention as it brings back shades of underpowered BMW318is and seems too small to wear the MB badge here in the US. Any opinions?

Buellwinkle

I would not care what the model number was. What I would care about is a completely new engine from a company that has worse realiabilty than it's partner in crime, Chrysler. MB has never impressed me with their engineering. I bought one of the first 190's back in 1983 and it had a defect where the throttle linkage was too close to the exhaust manifold and on a hot day the ball/socket would expand and pop off. It took them many months to redesign it and eventually do a TSB. They gave me a new car under the first year of the CA lemon law and the new car needed a transmission after a week. I like the fact that the 2.3L motor has been out for many years, it's the best part of the C230K. In case anyone is keeping score, I'm up to 14 loaners in less than a year, I wonder what the record is.

tommy

Well, as long as they kept the free coffee, donuts, cookies, and car washes, right, Buell?

I kind of understand MB's point - they just released the c230, and in one year, would have to show a reduction of a half of a liter. The US population (won't speak for Canucks) just won't understand that it's new, almost same hp, better hp/weight ratio, etc.

Having said that, it's a little cowardly to lie about the displacement. At least in the 240, they're lying by showing it smaller. I'm more offended about them dropping the mirror autodim feature.

Accord

Have you not seen the over-engineered cup holders in the S-Class? Gotta love those, they will impress anybody!

Buellwinkle

I know, how do you pass that up! If it wasn't for that I'ld be driving a Subie WRX, Audi A4 or Jag X.

mdp c230k

Did you read the question? I said psychologically, NOT specs. Does C180K sound weak or lesser of a car than C230K in peoples perception? If you don't like MB engineering, why did you buy the car? In case your keeping score, I have made zero visits to the dealer thus far in 10 months. I guess my car is just a good one and yours isn't!

truelove

psychologically yes, i think there is a difference obvioulsy. but since we all here do in fact know the specs, then we can make an educated judgement.

am i the only one here who doesn't mind the new 1.8L engine (not only do i not mind, but i just don't care at all)? like i've said before, if i wanted power, i'd buy a used Z-3 or a new Nissan 350Z.

truelove

oh, and with the supercharger, there's no way that the new 1.8L is too weak to be in the U.S. the whole notion of the new engine being weak at all is ridiculous. those who say otherwise are expecting alot of power out of a car that isn't meant for it. and it can certainly be modded to get the umph that is wanted. this car isn't a drag racer people. it's a sportY car not a sportS car.

avlis

I'm quite impressed with the engineering.

Your daughter has a Ford Mustang. How does that compare with your C230K on an engineering standpoint? Remember we're talking about engineering only, not necessarily dependability.

Buellwinkle

Several things besides the car washes and cookies made me do it. I figured Audi, VW, Jaguar and other companies really turned around their poor quality and reliability and started to come out with some realy nice reliable cars. So I made the stupid assumption that MB also made leaps in their reliabilty and the horrible MB of old was gone and it was OK to go back in the water. Boy was I wrong, they are not ready for prime time. You are the lucky one if you car is flawless, maybe my cars were made during Oktoberfest and they are drunk on the assembly line. But their great service, loaners, car washes, cookies and my ASP pulley are keeping me interested for the time being. If Ford came out with their new Mustang in 2002 instead of holding off until 2004 I never would have considered the MB at all.

Now add to all that a C180 with an all brand new engine and I don't know if I would have taken that huge of a risk. I might have been fooled by the C230 emblem and not even have thought about the new motor until the ink dried on the contract but if it said C180 I would have definetly scrutinized it more. Would I buy a C180 given what I know right now and what other cars are available, absolutely not, even it if mean washing my own car.

vadim

I dunno... Does Audi4 1.8T sound weak? To some, yes, to others, no, some people couldn't care less...

mdp c230k

To an Audi4 2.8 it might. But, as I said, going backwards from a C230K to a C180K sounds like a step down to a weaker car and to pay the same price would bother many buyers.

truelove

power is not in the least bit related to price. that's quite ridiculous. any engineer knows that. now if you have two engines that involve the same engineering technology but one is more powerful than the other, then yes, price is related. but these are two different engines from an engineering standpoint. you cannot directly relate price. one cannot expect to pay less for the 1.8L and more for the 2.3L just because of the power when in fact the 1.8L is more advanced from an engineering position. I'm an electrical engineer, and it would be piece of cake to crank out of a fast less efficient, less reliable processor as compared to a slower, more efficient processor. and you'd better believe the slower more efficient processor would sell for the same amount as the fast less efficient one if not more. i guess what i'm saying is that we're to the point now where power and speed are almost limitless thanks to technology. you cannot complain when a less powerfull yet more efficient engine isn't cheaper than a more powerful yet older less efficient engine. anyway, that's just my take. thanks for listening

mdp c230k

The original question was one of the publics perception of the difference, not the specs, as related to the acceptance of a small engine for the same price as the larger one. It would be like saying buy the new processor with 1.8billion transistors at 2Ghz over the old one with 2.3billion transistors at 2Ghz even if they both do the same flops. Just ask AMD why they are calling their chips by the new nomenclature, larger numbers are more impressive to the masses than are actual technical facts.

raymond

Anyone know what MB is doing overseas (not in the US) with the 1.8 vs the 2.3? Are they also dropping the 2.3?

I liked the wider torque band of the 2.3, pity it wasn't always there when you hit the gas....

truelove

okay okay, when it comes right down to it when talking about the general public that knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about specs whatsoever. then yes, i would EXPECT to pay less for a C180 as opposed to a C230. the key word here is EXPECT. however, i would be first suprised to learn that in fact the C180 is not cheaper than not so surprised when i learn why. and the AMD example COMPLETELY applies here. when AMD and Intel had their 2000+ and 2Ghz processors, they could have in fact absolutely gone for the same price (even though thankfully AMD sells theirs for a reasonable price) even though AMD's ran at a slower clock speed. i own a 1900+ and it's been benchmarked to run at the same efficiency of a 2.2Ghz Pentium. in this case i bought a slower processor but paid a higher price due to the efficiency and technology. as will customers of the new 1.8L engine in that they will buy a weaker engine but will pay a higher price due to the efficiency and technology involved in it. the truth is that the masses will have to except the non-pricedrop of the newer smaller engine because it really is a more technically impressive engine whether they realize it or not. i'm babbling so i'm gonna shut up now.

trench

In Europe they'll have the C180, C200K and C230K. All with the essentially the same 1.8L motor - but tuned to give different power/torque outputs.

Cheers, BT

MB-BOB

mdp c230k, don't mind Buellwinkle. He's our resident MB troll. We get more positive comments about Mercedes Benzes from our resident BMW troll, dasMafia. (Where is the Nebraska mauler, anyway?)

On topic, I suspect there are any number of people willing to pay the same price for a 2003 Coupe over a 2002 Coupe, irrespective of equipment. For those in the know who regularly stare at pump prices of $3.00+ per gal./liter, the 1.8L will be a welcome change, as it allegedly will be more fuel efficient. Keep in mind, MB sells more cars to European customers than American customers by a factor of 3:1 or more.

Volkswagen, and its upmarket cousin Audi, have charted their entire future on light displacement, 1.8L engines, and it doesn't appear to be hurting them.

raymond

MB-Bob

I found an article in a South African newspaper about the annual Total Enconomy run, in which cars from various manufacturers are driven in varying real-world conditions by professional (racing or rally) drivers.

What strikes me is that a 1.8l engine would be considered "up-market" there, and most likely in Europe too. The "open" class starts at 2.3l and above - it's amazing what seeing 4.00 per litre for gas will do to engine sizes. THe average engine size there is about 1.4l. It seems to be only Americans that cannot do anything with less than 2.5l and 6 cylinders.

For those who're interested, look at the motoring page of the newspaper at

IOL Motoring

Interesting the number of BMW X5s and Minis in SA....

Buellwinkle

F*ck you! You lucked out and got one of the rare good ones or ignore the trips to the dealer. I have had 4 MBs and they all where the most unreliable cars I've ever owned, ever. And I average a new car per year specially now between 3 drivers. That doesn't mean I didn't like the cars, just a PITA and I would compare it to a Fiat. If MB ever made cars as reliable as Jaguar or Lexus they would waiting lists to buy them. It will be at least 10 more years until I erase enough of my memory to actually purchase another Benz.

MB-BOB

Not to start a war with you Buell. I just don't understand your lust for punishment. You obviously hate MB reliability, yet something irresistably draws you to buy them over and over and over.

The difference between you and a moth flying to a flame is that you get several do-over opportunities. I would have abandoned the brand after the first disappointment, but that's just me.

Look over your last 50 posts or so. Almost all of them start with something along the lines of, "Yea, it's a shame that..."

revstriker

Oh please!! All it seems you ever do on this forum is try to get people all upset by saying how unreliable MB is. Adding your stupid comments about how free donuts and car washes are the reason you picked MB is just idiotic! I sure know if I had 3 cars from a company that I had problems with, I sure wouldn't buy number 4 for all the free donuts and carwashes in the world! MB-BOB called it right, and you know it.

If the shoe fits.....

revstriker

Ha, you beat me to it!!

Right on!!

FrankW

my dad own's a jag and jag DO gives car washes and their free food and soda is much better than the MB's

revstriker: i don't think buell even bought a MB before. if what he said is true, where are all the documents and pictures at? ever since i been on this board all the posts i see from buell are nothing but negative comments about MB.

mdp c230k

The best part is that my immediate family has owned 4 MBs in the past 12 years and not one of them has had any problems at all, knock on wood! (3 S class and my C230K)
MB-Bob, don't worry, I look at Buell as a source of comedy. His opinion carrys as much weight as wet toiletpaper. LOL...