Buellwinkle

Here's a pick of the K&N filter in my car. I know I have the ITG filter but can you have enough filters? It fits perfectly. Can't tell you how many ponies were lost or gained in this endevor until next week. At least Mark Cummins can't say that he dynoed his coupe with a K&N filter and lost 5 hp

Mike T.

Too bad they poured the black silicone rubber matrix carelessly and reduced the effective surface area of the filter. Kind of defeats the intent of the thing, doesn't it?

SoCal240/6

The intent is to separate your money from your wallet, which they do a very good job of.

Buellwinkle

SoCal, you are so negative. You must have done some dyno testing to backup your opinion or do you believe reports on the the internet done on other cars? I on the order hand don't know, specially when I increased the air requirements by increasing boost. So I will find out soon enough. K&N filters work in some cases and not in others. If it doesn't work out feel free to come and give me a big "I told you so". Afterall, K&N has never seen a C230 because they don't sell this filter for the C230 so I can't blame them for a product they sell but don't know about if it doesn't work out. If I didn't think there was a chance I wouldn't have spent the $46. It's like Vegas, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to ask yourself, are you feeling lucky punk!

Mike T.

Seriously, Buellwinkle, send it back to K&N and tell them to give you one that does not have massive rubber incursions into the pleat area.

Unless this quality control standard is representative of their product for the C, you won't get a repeatable dyno result that's of any use to others.

BTW, I have had a K&N in my Peugeot 405 for the past 200,000 km - I bought it when I lived in a super-dusty area. They kick a** in such conditions - keeping the air flowing and filtering well long after a paper element would be totally choked.

I'm not sure that K&N filters do anything at all if you're in a non-dusty area though, as I am now.

BTW, the element in my 405 does not have the "rubber overkill" that yours does, which is why I say "send it back".

BlackC230Coupe

please let us know the results after the dyno.

i wonder which is better ITG or K&N?

tifosiv122

So what's the original intent of this filter?

Erik

Buellwinkle

The filter was designed for the C180/C200 non-US cars.

madryan

buellwinkle, did you order the filter from performance international??.... when did you receive it??

SoCal240/6

No, I don't believe a lot of the "Internet reports" on the effectiveness of K&N filters.

I do believe the extensive testing of very well respected, national automotive gurus, though.

For example, Bruce Anderson. He is THE recognized Porsche expert in the US, having worked for the factory, published numerous books that are regarded as "Bibles" in the field, etc. He has dyno tested just about every Porsche 911 made since the early '70s. That is a lot of various models, various induction systems, etc. With the very narrow exception of one unusual model, he has found ZERO increase with K&N, and recommends against them because of the increased particulates let into the car.

Jim Conforti has done the same with many late model BMWs, same results.

Carlsson has tested and modified the C320, and found that the stock intake and paper filter can flow many, many times the volume that the engine can use - thus, changing the filter makes no difference and they DON'T change the stock filter out even on their highly modified cars.

On the other side, I've NEVER seen reliable data from a reliable source showing that K&N makes more power on ANY modern car. Not one. Keep in mind the criteria: (1) RELIABLE data from a (2) RELIABLE source. You can find dyno data showing that all sorts of bogus products "increase" horsepower. (For example, the "e-ram," the "Tornado", etc. Do an internet search for those).

You are right, it is like Vegas. But people greatly overestimate the chance that their stock filter is not capable of providing their engine with FAR MORE air than it could ever process. After all, its not rocket science. If the stock filter were choking the engine, all they'd have to do is, umm, put a bigger one on.

If one was going to make an educated assumption/guess, it should be that a modern, well-engineered car is not even close to being choked by its stock air filter. Yet, for some reason, most people automatically assume the opposite. That is being on the wrong side of the bet.

I'm not saying that its impossible that MB was not smart enough to fit a sufficiently sized air filter on the Hatchback. It would be disappointing if that were true, but I guess its possible. But I doubt it.

And, your one, two or three dyno pulls won't prove anything. Its just not scientifically valid. If you do one run with stock, then one with the K&N, and show that the K&N makes 2 hp more, it means nothing. Its well within the margin of error and you could run the same test the next day and it could just as well show the stock filter making 2 more hp than the K&N.

I've posted a very comprehensive particulate test done by Jim Conforti on the K&N filter, here on this site. You can probably find it. That's just one test. There is no real doubt anymore that K&N lets in a LOT more particulates (even by their own numbers, 50% more, but its really more like 200-300% more). So, more wear, for no gain. Sounds like a winner.

Buellwinkle

The panel filter I have is for the C200 Coupe sold in other countries, it has the same engine but with a shorter stroke from what I understand. Everything else like the airbox, pulley, etc. is the same. I got it from http://www.ajusa.com because they offer free shipping. It's K&N part number 33-2193. It's $43.18 shipped and in California add 3.35 for tax.


SoCal, while your info may be true for a normally aspirated car like the C320 or a high performance car like the 911, it doesn't apply to the c-coupe. The airbox in the c-coupe is severely constraint in size and shape by it's location right above the radiator fan (what clown thought of that one). There are portions of the filter, because of it's thickness vs. the space in the airbox where no air can possibly flow. A thinner filter like the K&N offers great potential just in it's shape more than it's ability to flow more air. Also adding 2 psi that MB didn't plan for increases the airflow requirements dramatically.

SoCal240/6

Sounds possible, I guess. Although I don't think 2psi increases the airflow requirements "dramatically." Probably in the neighborhood of 12-15% or so.

But I'd want to be pretty sure of an appreciable increase before subjecting my car to the increased particulate intake of a K&N. At least if I planned on keeping the car for a while.

I liked the post above about how great a K&N is in dusty conditions, because it doesn't "clog up" like a paper filter. Of course it doesn't. Because its simply letting all the dirt pass through into the engine! A filter "clogging up" is a filter doing its job.

levelr123g

i had a kn filter on my 91 integra since it was new. this car had over 300000 miles on it when i sold it and it ran perfectly. it didnt burn any oil and managed 34-36 mpg. now if kn was so bad for the engine, then how did it last so long? i used to live in daytona and took my car on the beach all the time, have you ever been to daytona and seen how fine the sand is? as for hp numbers it does help, i was a motorcycle mechanic for 5 years and when you jetted a bike and tried to use the stock filter it was a pig and didnt really put up any numbers, once we installed a kn the results were amazing. if kn filters were so bad then why has no one ever taken them to court for false advertising? maybe you should use some of your reports and take them to court. when you are done with them let us know how it turned out!

SoCal240/6

Maybe your integra would have gone 600,000 miles with the stock filter. Bottom line is this: K&N lets in significantly more particulates, and more particulates by definition = more wear.

K&N won't get taken to court because they don't lie. They say that their filters will flow X% more air than a stock filter. Which is true. But doesn't matter if your stock filter already can flow more air than the engine can use. Which is the case with the vast majority of modern, well-engineered cars (certainly BMW, MB and Porsche, as proven on the dyno). If the air filter is not the bottleneck, then improving the airfilter does nothing.

They also will NEVER say their filters actually filter particulates as well or better than the stock filter. If they said that, it would be a lie and they know it.

Bottom line is this: (1) K&N is not as effective a filter as an OEM paper filter. (2) On the vast majority of modern cars, the stock paper filter already is capable of flowing far, far more air than the engine can use. (Again, this has been proven on the dyno on Porsches, BMWs and MBs). So increasing the flow potential of the filter does NOTHING.

So, increased particulates in your engine, for ZERO power gain. Sounds great.

SoCal240/6

Here's just one link to a study by Jim Conforti - a very, very well known and well respected BMW tuner.

http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/airfilter.html

I'd read it pretty carefully before subjecting my car to a K&N filter for no reason.

Mike T.

Thanks for the vapid analysis. K&N filters use adsorbed oils to bind filtered particulates together, so when they're dirty they actually filter better than when they're clean. You can see this effect when washing them. But clogged paper filters still filter really well too. Only probelm is, they flow next to no air. Transport Canada estimated a few years back that over 30% of cars on the road have clogged or partially clogged air filters. This is not a theoretical problem.

According to your pedantic logic, instead of using a K&N, I should have just kept a case lot of Peugeot paper air filters at $35 a pop in my trunk, 'cause I'd have needed a new one each week in spring and fall, or driving on dirt roads in summer.

As for longevity, don't shed a tear for my 15 year old car and its porous K&N. Its original engine is at 275,000 km (171,000 miles) as I write this and it will surely last longer than the 90 degree V6 in your Cabriolet

Want to bet on it?

SoCal240/6

Why don't you read Jim Conforti's analysis? I've posted it above. K&N simply lets in 200-300% more particulates than an OEM filter.

Also, the K&N, because of its vastly reduced surface area, loads up faster and quickly flows less than the stock filter. Proven in testing.

But, K&N has a great marketing department. Really great.

Mike T.

And I refer you to the rallying specialist magazine from the UK, Cars and Car Conversions. It is there that all will be revealed about air filtration in dusty conditions. Oh, have you never heard of it?

Come on, how about a wager about my Peugeot engine that ingests small pebbles outlasting your partially amputated V-8?

BlackC230Coupe

my friend got a K&N filter for his 2002 Roush Mustang and had it dynod and i believe he got 7 or 8 hp increase over the stock filter.

JeT

The study is interesting but certainly not defintive. His conclusion "More DIRT = BAD" may certainly be true but that ain't no scientific conclusion. You will need to do the test at least another 60 times to get some sort of statistical significance. He even admits that he doesn't know whether there will be problems.

At the end of the day, if you want greater air flow then there is gonna be a tradeoff with filter efficiency. But a 224% increase in dust over stock does not necessarily equate to a failing engine.
As with any other mod, it is whether you are willing to take the chance.

DtS

Interesting topic!

Ehh, how often should I check the stock air filter (or the aftermarket ditto if I have had one of those..)?

Or should I just wait and let they guys at the service dept. do it for me?

hobie

Hi Buellwinkle-I just picked up my K&N from Jegs (special order, took 8 days, $44.20. The black glue stuff on mine is a little cleaner, but 1/8 inch of it looks to be by design. The ITG is in the car now. I'll toss $10 at your account at Evosport for dyno time.

Hi SoCal- Your input is appreciated, after all we're all pursuing the same goal. I'm OK with shorter engine life in exchange for power. But I'd hate to reduce the life for zero power. BW's data from dynoing without any filter seem to suggest that any filter is restrictive, on a C230. I suspect that is why track cars run simple screens, even Bimmers and Porsches.

Tires: The Yoko AVSint 225/50/16 don't rub. At $60 ea. (plus shipping and mounting) this is a bargain for a huge improvement. Of course the treadwear rating is 140! Another trade-off: shorter tire life for more performance.

Dealer rants and raves? Mine are all positive. They have been great to work with; they simply made sure I understood the warranty implications of any mods I made. I understand, they understand and we're having some fun.

eason

I did another homemade prototype airtake system today. This time I took off the complete stock air box. And I left the supercharge release valve open to the atmosphere. The noise of the supercharge whine is very loud, I can hear "WEEEEEEEEE" everytime I hit the gas, and there is a "ppppsssshhhh" blow-off valve sound everytime I release the gas. Again, I didn't take it to the dyno, all I did were 10 runs on the G-Tech meter. I can feel the engine pulls better in the higher rev, but it is a bit annoying since the supercharge is whining very loud.
Here are the numbers from my G-Tech meter:

0-60mph w/normal launch: avg 6.82sec
0-60mph w/ brake torque launch: avg 6.68sec

The C230K equipped with auto, C2, C4, C7 and Dynomax UltraFlow muffler.

Here are the pictures of new prototype intake system. (I know it's ugly, please don't throw flame at me )

eason

Another full view at the setup.

eason

Superchager bleed-off valve