everyone know it was inevitable....
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Newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
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everyone know it was inevitable....
suprised no one mentioned it so far...
btw: I'm new, 16 and 2 days old with a nice silver MB c230 kompressor sports coupe already in the drive. 63 mi so far. already got a new kenwood cd/mp3 reciever with pioneer 4's in front, and 6in in rear...no sub....yet.....
ok, well anyway...anyone here remember the bmw 318ti hatchback? My dad said that was gonna be my car....TILL IT FLOPPED!!!!! Can anyone go in depth on why it dropped? my mb is almost the same, cept alittle quieter, bit more power, and sunroof is alot bigger. Even tho I was young at the time, I thought that BMW's were invincible, none of the lines would ever go down just cuz it's a beamer...well I was wrong and I would like to find out why. Let's just hope they don't kill off this beautiful breed.
did anyone have these? what did you think?
paycee
-happy 16 year old MB owner
btw: I'm new, 16 and 2 days old with a nice silver MB c230 kompressor sports coupe already in the drive. 63 mi so far. already got a new kenwood cd/mp3 reciever with pioneer 4's in front, and 6in in rear...no sub....yet.....
ok, well anyway...anyone here remember the bmw 318ti hatchback? My dad said that was gonna be my car....TILL IT FLOPPED!!!!! Can anyone go in depth on why it dropped? my mb is almost the same, cept alittle quieter, bit more power, and sunroof is alot bigger. Even tho I was young at the time, I thought that BMW's were invincible, none of the lines would ever go down just cuz it's a beamer...well I was wrong and I would like to find out why. Let's just hope they don't kill off this beautiful breed.
did anyone have these? what did you think?
paycee
-happy 16 year old MB owner
Super Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 784
Likes: 0
From: Brisbane/Sydney, Australia
In my opinion, the BMW hatch was a piece of ***** and not even comparable to the Coupe. Some people argue that it wasn't even a real BMW.
Don't get me wrong, I think beemers are a great car...except for the hatch. Do a search on the forum and you will find some interesting discussion.
Don't get me wrong, I think beemers are a great car...except for the hatch. Do a search on the forum and you will find some interesting discussion.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 426
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From: Harm City, MD
E350 Coupe (2010)
every now and then in my area I see those with M Badges... What is that like a AMG coupe version or something?
btw I though I was young! at least take care of it regaurdless of weather or not your paying for it.
btw I though I was young! at least take care of it regaurdless of weather or not your paying for it.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,067
Likes: 11
From: Westwood, NJ
2004 Civic Si. FWD for the Win!
There was a club sport version of the ti that came out in '95 that sported M badges and bodykit, but tons o' people put them on theirs anyway. In that way, it is like the "AMG"s that you see on the road.
It didn't succeed mostly to its price, IMHO. The price difference between it and its competition was much more than the current difference between the ccoupe and its competition.
It also did have a lack of power and an older gen rear suspension. On the other hand, it had the best 3 series interior that I've seen, the cool CA roof, and is a true monster when fitted with the appropriate M engine. Don't assume that you can beat one when you pull up next to it; many are modded at this point.
When I was looking at cars, I did look at them, but '99s were still going for $18k in NJ
. Still too much for such a mild-mannered car (in stock trim).
It didn't succeed mostly to its price, IMHO. The price difference between it and its competition was much more than the current difference between the ccoupe and its competition.
It also did have a lack of power and an older gen rear suspension. On the other hand, it had the best 3 series interior that I've seen, the cool CA roof, and is a true monster when fitted with the appropriate M engine. Don't assume that you can beat one when you pull up next to it; many are modded at this point.
When I was looking at cars, I did look at them, but '99s were still going for $18k in NJ
. Still too much for such a mild-mannered car (in stock trim).
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 987
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From: Houston, TX
2002 C230 Coupe Black/Charcoal C5 C7 Auto
Originally posted by tommy
There was a club sport version of the ti that came out in '95 that sported M badges and bodykit, but tons o' people put them on theirs anyway. In that way, it is like the "AMG"s that you see on the road.
It didn't succeed mostly to its price, IMHO. The price difference between it and its competition was much more than the current difference between the ccoupe and its competition.
It also did have a lack of power and an older gen rear suspension. On the other hand, it had the best 3 series interior that I've seen, the cool CA roof, and is a true monster when fitted with the appropriate M engine. Don't assume that you can beat one when you pull up next to it; many are modded at this point.
When I was looking at cars, I did look at them, but '99s were still going for $18k in NJ . Still too much for such a mild-mannered car (in stock trim).
There was a club sport version of the ti that came out in '95 that sported M badges and bodykit, but tons o' people put them on theirs anyway. In that way, it is like the "AMG"s that you see on the road.
It didn't succeed mostly to its price, IMHO. The price difference between it and its competition was much more than the current difference between the ccoupe and its competition.
It also did have a lack of power and an older gen rear suspension. On the other hand, it had the best 3 series interior that I've seen, the cool CA roof, and is a true monster when fitted with the appropriate M engine. Don't assume that you can beat one when you pull up next to it; many are modded at this point.
When I was looking at cars, I did look at them, but '99s were still going for $18k in NJ
. Still too much for such a mild-mannered car (in stock trim).
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Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 99
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From: New York
2002 C230k
don't underestimate the car. i have seen a buch of them with m3 engines in them... on particular one in a car show with 18" or 19" HREs... and the m kit... a very nice car once you fix it up right
of course there are some that believe if the car didn't come from the factory like that then it shouldn't be....
only "tuners" can appreciate a properly "hooked-up" car..
CA roof.... it the California top that some ti's had.... it's like the one they offer or offered in the mb ml.... it was a cloth roof that retracted the length of the roof
of course there are some that believe if the car didn't come from the factory like that then it shouldn't be....
only "tuners" can appreciate a properly "hooked-up" car..
CA roof.... it the California top that some ti's had.... it's like the one they offer or offered in the mb ml.... it was a cloth roof that retracted the length of the roof
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Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: So. California
2002 C230K, Auto, etc.
New MB
Man how times have changed. It took me 63 years to get my first benz. My first car was a 1950 Super 88 Oldsmobile with 50+K miles on it. Took me a long time to save up the $500 to buy it. I took care of it like it cost $10 thouand.
Make us proud and TAKE care of it. Many people would kill to have a car like yours.
The 318 died because for one thing it had only 115 HP if I remember correctly and looked CHEAP.
Just my take I could be wrong.
Enjoy
Make us proud and TAKE care of it. Many people would kill to have a car like yours.
The 318 died because for one thing it had only 115 HP if I remember correctly and looked CHEAP.
Just my take I could be wrong.
Enjoy
Banned
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
'01 C240/6
The Ti was not a bad car. It was not that different than the 318 sedan of the time. It had 138 hp - not grossly underpowered for its weight, it was a lively, fun to drive car.
It was pretty much like the regular 318 sedan and coupe. It used the prior 3 series rear suspension, which was not bad. It also had a somewhat simplified dashboard. The rest was all current (at the time) 3 series.
It was not a bad car, sold in the rest of the world, and even to this very day is still being produced for the rest of the world.
The 318Ti failed in the U.S. for a simple, well known reason: U.S. buyers generally don't like Hatchbacks. Esp. from what is perceived as a prestige manufacturer.
Which is exactly why MB is so careful to avoid calling its current C Hatchback a Hatchback. But, before you Hatchback owners make too much fun of the demise of the Ti in the US, you should wait a few years. MB's calling its Hatchback a "coupe" doesn't change the fact that its a Hatchback, and the view of the US consumer to Hatchbacks hasn't changed that much since the days of the Ti. I think its not anywhere near certain that the MB Hatchback will not end up (in the US) in the same place as the BMW hatchback: Discontinued. No use debating, though, because time will tell. (The sales numbers 2-3 years from now will tell).
It was pretty much like the regular 318 sedan and coupe. It used the prior 3 series rear suspension, which was not bad. It also had a somewhat simplified dashboard. The rest was all current (at the time) 3 series.
It was not a bad car, sold in the rest of the world, and even to this very day is still being produced for the rest of the world.
The 318Ti failed in the U.S. for a simple, well known reason: U.S. buyers generally don't like Hatchbacks. Esp. from what is perceived as a prestige manufacturer.
Which is exactly why MB is so careful to avoid calling its current C Hatchback a Hatchback. But, before you Hatchback owners make too much fun of the demise of the Ti in the US, you should wait a few years. MB's calling its Hatchback a "coupe" doesn't change the fact that its a Hatchback, and the view of the US consumer to Hatchbacks hasn't changed that much since the days of the Ti. I think its not anywhere near certain that the MB Hatchback will not end up (in the US) in the same place as the BMW hatchback: Discontinued. No use debating, though, because time will tell. (The sales numbers 2-3 years from now will tell).
Last edited by SoCal240/6; Oct 3, 2002 at 01:04 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 756
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Originally posted by SoCal240/6
The 318Ti failed in the U.S. for a simple, well known reason: U.S. buyers generally don't like Hatchbacks. Esp. from what is perceived as a prestige manufacturer.
The 318Ti failed in the U.S. for a simple, well known reason: U.S. buyers generally don't like Hatchbacks. Esp. from what is perceived as a prestige manufacturer.
Look at some of the high performance sports cars out there.
Guess what ? Some of them are hatchbacks.
The 318 failed because it was not perceived as a good value.
If it had decent performance for the price it would still be around.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
'01 C240/6
Originally posted by viper
This is mindless repitition from some auto mag scribe.
Look at some of the high performance sports cars out there.
Guess what ? Some of them are hatchbacks.
The 318 failed because it was not perceived as a good value.
If it had decent performance for the price it would still be around.
This is mindless repitition from some auto mag scribe.
Look at some of the high performance sports cars out there.
Guess what ? Some of them are hatchbacks.
The 318 failed because it was not perceived as a good value.
If it had decent performance for the price it would still be around.
The US aversion to Hatchbacks from prestige mfrs is well known - in fact it was recognized by MB when they decided to call the C230 a Coupe when it is really a Hatchback. MB's nerviousness with selling a Hatchback in the US was well documented in the press. They know the US isn't big on prestige Hatchbacks.
Sure, there is a place for Hatchback - like Hondas, etc. But most in the US don't equate Hatchback's with prestige mfrs. I guess there have been some high performance sports cars that are technically hatchbacks - but not really. The main difference with a sports car and a Hatch is that the sports car's styling is not burdened by having a useable rear seat. When you have a 2 door Hatchback and a useable rear seat and room for cargo in the back, you can't help but have a car that looks like an economy car.
I guess 3 years from now, history will tell us which one of us was right. The MB Hatchback's future is, IMO, not much brighter in the US than the Ti's was, for the exact same reason.
Last edited by SoCal240/6; Oct 3, 2002 at 06:58 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Croton, NY
1991 mr2 turbo, 2002 coupe
Originally posted by viper
This is mindless repitition from some auto mag scribe.
Look at some of the high performance sports cars out there.
Guess what ? Some of them are hatchbacks.
The 318 failed because it was not perceived as a good value.
If it had decent performance for the price it would still be around.
This is mindless repitition from some auto mag scribe.
Look at some of the high performance sports cars out there.
Guess what ? Some of them are hatchbacks.
The 318 failed because it was not perceived as a good value.
If it had decent performance for the price it would still be around.
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: OR
The ti was the car I really wanted for a long time. Then BMW killed it and decided not to import the next generation to the States, for many of the reasons mentioned. So I went with the MB.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was that the BMW dealers were brutal in loading up the cars until they cost almost as much as the sedan. With more room, slightly better cache, and only a tiny cost difference, most buyers just said 'sedan'. Then reports of poor build quality started coming in, and most people never gave them another look.
BWM (or at least its dealers) gave no thought to the fact that they were (re-)entering an entry-level market, and would have to adjust a bit to be successful. Ironic for the company whose rep was built on the 2002tii.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was that the BMW dealers were brutal in loading up the cars until they cost almost as much as the sedan. With more room, slightly better cache, and only a tiny cost difference, most buyers just said 'sedan'. Then reports of poor build quality started coming in, and most people never gave them another look.
BWM (or at least its dealers) gave no thought to the fact that they were (re-)entering an entry-level market, and would have to adjust a bit to be successful. Ironic for the company whose rep was built on the 2002tii.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,403
Likes: 21
From: South Florida
Fast Cars!
Originally posted by SoCal240/6
Which is exactly why MB is so careful to avoid calling its current C Hatchback a Hatchback. But, before you Hatchback owners make too much fun of the demise of the Ti in the US, you should wait a few years. MB's calling its Hatchback a "coupe" doesn't change the fact that its a Hatchback, and the view of the US consumer to Hatchbacks hasn't changed that much since the days of the Ti. I think its not anywhere near certain that the MB Hatchback will not end up (in the US) in the same place as the BMW hatchback: Discontinued. No use debating, though, because time will tell. (The sales numbers 2-3 years from now will tell).
Which is exactly why MB is so careful to avoid calling its current C Hatchback a Hatchback. But, before you Hatchback owners make too much fun of the demise of the Ti in the US, you should wait a few years. MB's calling its Hatchback a "coupe" doesn't change the fact that its a Hatchback, and the view of the US consumer to Hatchbacks hasn't changed that much since the days of the Ti. I think its not anywhere near certain that the MB Hatchback will not end up (in the US) in the same place as the BMW hatchback: Discontinued. No use debating, though, because time will tell. (The sales numbers 2-3 years from now will tell).
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 1
From: The blue white rock, third out.
2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
The C230 is a coupe...and here's why:
RSX...Hatchback.
Trans Am...hatchback
Camaro...hatchback
Integra...hatchback
Porsche 928...hatchback
Probe GT...hatchback
All these cars are considered coupes by the media and the public...but they have hatchbacks. To me, a hatch back is a car like the Ford Focus, the VW GTI, and the Civic Si. That's a hatchback...
RSX...Hatchback.
Trans Am...hatchback
Camaro...hatchback
Integra...hatchback
Porsche 928...hatchback
Probe GT...hatchback
All these cars are considered coupes by the media and the public...but they have hatchbacks. To me, a hatch back is a car like the Ford Focus, the VW GTI, and the Civic Si. That's a hatchback...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 17
From: Chicagoland, IL
09 C63
But just to go on the other side's defense...
Trans Am - going away
Camaro - ??
928 - hated by all Porschefiles (I myself loved it)
Integra - gone
Probe - well I'll stop now (it is a probe after all)
Seriously. Having these cars considered 'coupes' by the media did them no favors.
And to chime in on the Ti front. I too seriously wanted one. Ever since the Scirrocco (SP?) I've wanted hatch backs. I've had (in order) Datsun 310, Scirrocco, Corrado, wanted TI - bought M3
, and the hatchback won again -- now in C230.
P
Trans Am - going away
Camaro - ??
928 - hated by all Porschefiles (I myself loved it)
Integra - gone
Probe - well I'll stop now (it is a probe after all)
Seriously. Having these cars considered 'coupes' by the media did them no favors.
And to chime in on the Ti front. I too seriously wanted one. Ever since the Scirrocco (SP?) I've wanted hatch backs. I've had (in order) Datsun 310, Scirrocco, Corrado, wanted TI - bought M3
, and the hatchback won again -- now in C230.P
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 1
From: Nashua, NH
2008 VW GTI
How does a hatchback effect the company name? its basicly just a different design in how the rear tunk is opened.
It's interesting to note that the configuaration of these cars was EXACTLY the same as our C230Ks: 4cyl, rear drive, hatch. I don't like to tell people pretentiously that I drive an MB. So when people ask me what kind of car I have I say, "It's the New Dodge Omni."
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,302
Likes: 0
From: Pencil-f'ing-Vania
MB C230K
Originally posted by jlm
One thing that wasn't mentioned was that the BMW dealers were brutal in loading up the cars until they cost almost as much as the sedan.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was that the BMW dealers were brutal in loading up the cars until they cost almost as much as the sedan.
As for American not liking hatchbacks... If you don't have kids a hatchback is one of the most practical vehicle configurations ever conceived. Maybe people don't like 'luxury' hatchbacks...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,924
Likes: 1
From: Sitting behind thing freakin desk of mine. Dreaming I was playing my Taylors, and driving my Benz. Long Live The VRAA!!!!!!
C230 Sports Coupe
Call me crazy but......
I thought I bought the car becuase I liked it. Not to make others happy.
man, I knew I forgot something!
I thought I bought the car becuase I liked it. Not to make others happy.
man, I knew I forgot something!
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 756
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Originally posted by zimmer26
People spending upwards of 25k typically aren't hatchback buyers here, I don't know what the hatchback stigma is, but there is no question that it exists and that is undoubtedly why our car is called "coupe". wouldn't have hurt either, no question.
People spending upwards of 25k typically aren't hatchback buyers here, I don't know what the hatchback stigma is, but there is no question that it exists and that is undoubtedly why our car is called "coupe". wouldn't have hurt either, no question.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,145
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
2010 C300 4matic
Originally posted by viper
I think the "stigma" was invented by the press. They don't have that problem in Europe where hatchbacks are extremely popular as versatile vehicles. But then again in North America we tend to classify leather seating as luxurious whereas most Europeans don't want any part of it.
I think the "stigma" was invented by the press. They don't have that problem in Europe where hatchbacks are extremely popular as versatile vehicles. But then again in North America we tend to classify leather seating as luxurious whereas most Europeans don't want any part of it.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
2005 smart cabrio; 2008 Mercedes-Benz B 200
Well...
Originally posted by Matt230K
I've noticed that a lot of European cars are cloth. But why is it that they don't want the leather? It sure is easier to clean.
I've noticed that a lot of European cars are cloth. But why is it that they don't want the leather? It sure is easier to clean.
2) is smells of chemicals. Some people actually like this smell but it makes others (like me) feel sick;
3) it's hot and sweaty/sticky in hot weather;
4) it's freezing cold in winter;
5) it's high maintenance compared to cloth;
6) leather is very poor when it comes to providing lateral support in cornering;
7) some cars have very low quality hides (e.g. BMW!).
The other factor is that the M-B cloth is of very high quality with lots of wool in it. Wool is a great insulator, and very hard-wearing. You may not like the patterns, but I'd NEVER choose leather over cloth. I've seen high quality fabric seats outlast decent quality leather time and time again, so in terms of longevity I doubt there's any difference between MB leather and MB cloth.
