BlackC230Coupe

I tried calling Lee at ASP today to find out about ordering the pully and they said they are moving and he wont be avalible before Tuesday

I understand it takes a month to make, but do u pay all of it up front or do u pay once its made? how does the billing work? when do u get charged?

20FHK02

I'm not sure about the others, but for my case I was not charged until the pulley was made and ready to ship.

BlackC230Coupe

oh ok well thats better than paying up front.

the reason why i want the pully so bad is because my friend with a 02' celica GT 5 speed with only a cold air intake a cat back back exhaust says he will kick the **** out of me, he only ran a 15.5 at the track which is nothing special. Only i dont think my C230 Auto can do that, i am sure its not to far away but he may still get me.
With the pully will i definitly run better than a 15.5? i was hoping to do alot better.

Buellwinkle

It's hard to say because everyone's reaction time is different so you need to practice. There are calculators on the web that give those kind of specs.

Try this site, with your car at 3,350 lbs with 192hp they calculate an ET of 15.9, with 230Hp they calculate 14.9. This is just a ball park as they don't know your torque curve, wheels/tires and others things.

http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/et.htm


Keep us informed on your track numbers.

Lynn

When using those ET calculators, don't foget to add your own weight to the weight of the car.

Buellwinkle

Assuming that driver weight is not automatically in there anyway. What I do is put in a weight so that with stock HP it gives me about the same ET as the magazines say it should get. Then I put in the expected HP and see what the relative improvement would be. In this case about 1 second with the pulley. At the track, what's always more consistent is trap speed since it's not dependent on reaction time like ET is.

BlackC230Coupe

i will definitly keep u informed when i go to the track, only it will be a while, at least a month.

Buellwinkle i somehow completly forgot how much HP u gained from the pully and i dont feel like doing a search. What was your final HP and Toqure? just from the pully and how much of it was at the wheels?

thanks

Lynn

ET is not dependent on reation time, winning is. The timer won't start until the car crosses the line. You can cut a perfect light or sit there until the next lunar eclipse, and your ET will be the same. Well maybe not, you'll heat soak the intercooler waiting for the eclipse, maybe even run out of gas.

Buellwinkle

We'll have to get you to a track Lynn, you'll have fun. What happens is both cars drive up to the starting line and you'll trip the pre-stage sensor, you usually stay there until the next guy lines up and you feel ready. As soon as both cars roll up to the staging sensor the tree lights start to go and you get 2 or 3 amber lights and when it goes green you better be moving as the clock is ticking. When you trip the 1/4 mile sensor you are done, pick up the slip on your way back. They do give you reaction time on the slip so you can be more awake next time. Some say you should start going when the last amber lights up, for me, I'm so slow that I probably have to start going as soon as the first light starts, victim of aging.

Black, based on the same chassis to engine dyno conversion factor that Kleemann uses I got 231hp at the crank with everything completely stock, with the airfilter off I got 237hp. I haven't dynoed with the K&N yet, that may get you somewhere in between. Also I got the intercooler itching to go on!

Outland

Anybody tried spraying the intercooler with alcohol or a water alcohol mix inbetween runs? That should bring the temp down.

What about removing that underbelly pan...should get some better airflow thru the engine compartment without it.

Lynn

Carl, the timer doesn't start with the light, it starts when the car moves and the "staged" beam at the start line is unbroken. the following quote is from an NHRA page

Also,
from the Drag Racing Basics page.

BlackC230Coupe

on the evosport site they say the kleemann pully gives u 237 hp? is that true? did anyone ever get that with a kleemann pully?
or does the ASP really give u more HP even though they may be very close.

Buellwinkle

I don't think anyone with an unmodified car every got anywhere close to that. This is not a bash on Brandon or Kleemann but Brandon did his dyno at 6,000' and then applied a correction factor of about 17% to estimate what it might be at sea level and then applied about 20% over that to get crank HP. There were other factors like he did it in the cold Denver winter and from what I understand he had other mods like a Kleemann exhaust and wheels. The altitude affects intake manifold pressure and it's not as severe on forced induction cars so I don't buy into using a generic correction factor used on normally aspirated cars. So as an example, he did a dyno with a correction factor and got 197.9hp at the wheels, in reality he got likely got 169hp at the wheels in Denver. Then he likely added 20% to the 198hp to come up with 237hp at the crank. I was able to duplicate his numbers by removing the air filter (which he said didn't matter). So take all these vendors HP ratings with a grain of salt. It appears that most MB owners and forum members do not dyno their cars, they truly believe the vendors and that's way more trust than I have. In the Audi/BMW/VW/Honda world everyone dynos their cars so those vendors are more reluctant to stretch. In no way do I fault him, it's his job to make the product look as best as they can.

I can tell you that from the dynos I did see with various pulleys, expect about 192hp at the rear wheels at most and about 185 on the low end. The alloy pulleys are more on the higher end and the steel pulleys are on the low end. Still the best bang for the buck on the coupes. If you see a dyno from a forum member that shows otherwise please post it. What amazes me is how much money people spend on mods on their cars and then forgo a $75 dyno to see if they got what they paid for. I don't know what happened to them but 2 friends on the forum with identical C-coupes bought an ASP pulley and a Kleemann pulley and they were going to dyno them and swap pulleys and dyno again to see if there's a difference, never heard from them again.

spankdoggie

Quote:

I don't know what happened to them but 2 friends on the forum with identical C-coupes bought an ASP pulley and a Kleemann pulley and they were going to dyno them and swap pulleys and dyno again to see if there's a difference, never heard from them again.

Those basturds.

mdp c230k

Buellwinkle, your stated increase in hp over the Kleemann pulley is very likely due to your stock 16" wheels. Also remember that without an air filter your a/f ratio gets higher than it should be for safe running, those extra 6 hp might be killing the engine. Furthermore you conjecture about how someone else runs their dyno test without actually being there is at best a guess and most likely skewed toward your idea of what reality is. As Lynn, myself and many others have shown, you are far from a knowledgeble source that can be relied upon and should not discount other's work as flawed, lest the judge yours. There are newbies here that might actually think you are an authority, which you are far from.

Lynn

mdp c230l, let's not forget that when Carl dynoed his car without an airfilter, it was just an experiment. He is not running his car without a filter. My opinion is the ECU can compensate for the increased airflow with the filter removed.

I, too, have some doubts that the methodology used to correct normally aspirated dyno results for atmospheric conditions is appropriate for forced induction. I don't have enough knowedge to be certain that it is not right, but just enough knowedge to question whether it is right.

BlackC230Coupe

i did not think anyone got the 237hp from the kleemann pully, at least on this fourm.

last question. You got 231 hp at the crank which sounds good to me what was your toqure?
Also i thought i remember u doing something that actually took alot of HP away from u? was that when u had the fuel settings on stage 2 or 3? or when was that?

Buellwinkle

Brandon published his dyno and location, weather and the 17% correction factor, yes I wasn't there so I have to take his word for it. And if you look at pics of his car he does have an aftermarket exhaust and wheels unless he took them off just for the dyno, maybe. But if his dyno numbers are repeatable why can't anyone repeat them? Show me the dyno!!!!

Just because you don't understand the effects of altitude on forced induction motors vs. normally aspirated motors doesn't make you right. I'm a licensed pilot, I've flow the same type of aircraft with and without a turbo and aircraft engine performance is usually based on rate of climb. As you go to higher altitudes a normally aspirated engine continues to lose power until you reach that aircrafts service ceiling, usually at about 12 to 14,000', even on the high performance aircraft. Service ceiling is the point at which the aircraft can no longer climb. Put a turbo on it and you do not experience the power loss anywhere near as much and the service ceilings usually shoot up to 16-20,000', oxygen mask or pressurized cabin territory, even on the same HP motor. You probably don't live in an area where altitude is an issue or you don't fly so I understand your lack of knowledge on this. If you don't believe me, go to the airport and ask some of the more advanced pilots, not 747 pilots but general aviation pilots.



And yes, not having an airfilter did bump up the a/f ratio to just under 15:1, not a healthy place, like Lynn says, only an experiment to see what potential there was, not my normal day to day driving situation.

Lynn, the reason the the a/f ratio is affected by the additional air volume coming into the engine is because the ECU has two operating modes, closed and open loop. Most of the time your car is running in a closed loop mode that checks the O2, MAS, TPS and other sensors to adjust the A/F ratio which in some cases can reach 20:1 during coasting. In closed loop mode the additional boost and missing air filter do not affect the a/f ratio. There are times when the ECU runs in open loop mode, the reason being is that at full throttle the ECU may not be able to react fast enough to the sensors so the factory presets values that it knows will work under these situations and these sensors are ignored. Also, at idle the ECU may be running in open loop mode for other reasons.

BlackC230Coupe

Buellwinke- could u answer my post above.

Thanks

mdp c230k

Buellwinkle, you are a pilot?!? Wow! Did you know that a SEVEN YEAR OLD pilot flew accross the US solo? Big deal - being a pilot makes you an authority on exactly what? Flying a plane does not mean you know diddly about how it works and why it acts as it does. Did you ever think that the difference in flight ceiling is due to the power that the engines develop at altitude? The turbo continues to shove enough air into the engine in lower atmospheric pressure for the engine to make power and the non-turbo must rely on natural air density which thins out as you climb. Like I said, pilot - big deal!

levelr123g

ok this leak sounds like the diameter of the new pulley is smaller than the diameter of the old pulley. this is causing the seal not to seal. have you measured this yet.

Buellwinkle

See, exactly, you just answered your own question. You can't compare a turbo/supercharged engine to a normally aspirated engine at different altitudes. The power loses are different. So a while 200hp normally aspiratated motor may develop 166hp at 6,000' as Brandon implies, a 200hp supercharged engine may develop noticably more than that.


BTW, pilots have to be more in tune with their aircraft because there are no sissy ECUs to manage the engine for you. A pilot must adjust a/f ratio when they change altitude. Pilots also have to adjust the pitch or their props as they change altitudes (on a constant speed prop aircraft). Doing things wrong can cause a catastrophic engine failure, not pretty. And yes, pilots understand way more about altitude changes than most motorists. Alive pilots also understand more about a/f ratio than most motorists

Also, the fact that a 7 year old held the controls while sitting next to a flight instructor is no more impressive than that 7 year old flying a plane on MS Flight Simulator, BFD. Last time I checked you had to be 14 to get a sail plane license and 16 to get a single engine aircraft license or even solo. A seven year old can not act as the sole pilot in command of an aircraft, not legally in the U.S. anyway.

BlackC230Coupe

Buell- can u answer this post already!



here it is AGAIN.

"You got 231 hp at the crank which sounds good to me what was your toqure?
Also i thought i remember u doing something that actually took alot of HP away from u? was that when u had the fuel settings on stage 2 or 3? or when was that?"

vadim

100 lb*ft. There's no need to go any higher, as the bolt is not under load other than its own tention - there are no axial forces applied to the pulley. The only concern is vibration. But if Threadlocker was used on the bolt's thread, there should be no worries. I'm going to re-torque the pulley bolt after a while, as the material is very soft and it might get a little loose, just like new alloy rims - any wheel manual suggests that the lug bolts be re-torqued after 50-100 miles or so after the initial installation.

20FHK02

NO!! Being smaller only means that the outer pulley that drives the Kompressor belt being smaller. The inner pulley and the steel ring diameters are identical to stock. I checked.