klutch

Hi everyone, I’ve been lurking around this board for a while but have never posted. I find your discussions very informative and would appreciate your input.

I have a real dilemma that I’m hoping you can help me with. I’m ready to place an order for a sporty coupe and until last week I thought that the only car for me was the c230 (mostly because of my perception that it’s the most bang for the buck). However, to set my mind at ease before pulling the trigger, I went to a test drive a BMW 325ci the other week. I’ve never driven one before and I must say that I was very impressed. It handled marvelously, sounded great and looked like a million in red. In my humble opinion it was much more fun than the c230. I didn’t think I could be talked out of a c230 but I’m finding that I’m getting pulled away to a 325ci.

Can you guys talk me back into a c230. My mind says c230 but my heart says 325ci. I truly am torn. Each day I change my mind. I need to make a decision in the next month so I can get my new car by summer.

The price difference between a c230 and 325ci isn’t that great, so the price savings is not a factor to me. Moreover, please don’t tell me to get a c230 because everyone and their dog has a BMW (that’s just silly). Here are both cars real "pros" as I see them:

C230 pros
-cheaper
-more HP, torque
-rarity factor
-6 speed

325ci pros
-xenon lights standard
-handles great
-manual transmission is smoother
-6 cylinder engine
-has a real trunk
-interior is hot
-lets be honest, it looks better from behind (I can’t fool myself any longer)
-has a CD player standard (MB really pissed me off with their blatant cash grab with their “fiber optic” fraud where you get their overpriced CD player or jack all)


I would really appreciate some frank comments on this subject.
Thanks
K.

DCX Engineer

Sounds like you've made up your mind. Go order your BMW and be happy.

Buellwinkle

My biggest reason for not even going to the BMW dealer during my search was the dealers reputation and attitude. I spoken to several people that were very unhappy with the level of service from BMW and the responses they get from the factory reps when problems can't be fixed. Mostly from people with 3 series including the M3. From the people I know I have not seen a repeat BMW owner. I would more likely have gotten a Jag or Audi before a BMW. The Audi A4 Convertible should be out soon and that will be the one I would get.

Fuzzo

i would go with the bimmer personally .. i think it looks better than the C230....but that's just my opinion...

Limited Edition

Hey..
well i would say that both these cars are a good comparsion. BMW is well known for handling and good performance. And Mercedes Benz is knows for good quality built and comfort. I've also thought of getting a 325i/ci but it really comes down to the Money. I Mean, yes there are xexons, leatherette, in dash CD, smooth 5 speed, as well as a smooth inline-6. But once, you add say premium options, you'd be surprised at how fast the price has jumped. I'm in one of those situation where, i've already stretched the limits of $$ and i couldn't posiblity put out another $3-5K more...so, it had to be a C230!. But i mean, what you pay for is what you get!...hope this helped
-Limited Edition

Flashman

The ci is a beautiful coupe. Just on a higher price point. I think you make your point well. Go for it. The BMW inline 6 is quite well refined.

Fuzzo

it's funny that he posted here asking us to help him convince that the 230 was the way for him to go and most of the posts are encouraging him to go with the bimmer....

just an observation....

Buellwinkle

The 323ti coupe should be out this spring and they are talking cheaper than the C-coupe to be competitive so my guess, since the C-coupe is 24,999 the beemer will be about 23,999. Last time there was a ti model was 1999 and those cars have great resale value even though they were showroom white elephants.

Mike T.

Go for the BMW 325 Ci.

It looks far better than the C 230, its engine is way smoother and it actually gets pretty decent fuel economy.

Do not think twice, if you can afford the price.

young

heh, what's up w/ all the bmw support all of a sudden?

ok, here's my take as an owner of the 2001 325xiwagon and as a brother-in-law of an owner of a 2001 325ci manual. i am not a manual driver and my bro-in-law is hardcore manual driver. both of us feel that it is a little underpowered and he's getting rid of his after a mere 4 months for an M3. if you can pull it, a 330 will be more satisfying. i mean, if <b>I</b> think its underpowered...

i think the coupé handles great but i have the z rated tires on it vs the bmw which has the contis touring all-seasons (and its all-wheel drive).

you know the coupé is rarer; but that sort of understates the implication. where i live, i must see hundreds of bmws daily! if you don't really care, then the bmw is ok. but i definitely did not want to get another bmw. i wanted something more unique and the panoramic moonroof was the icing on the cake. but no HIDs sucks. we got HIDs on the BMW.

are you getting leather? both of us like the leatherette better than the leather in the bmws. its tight vs loose of the leather. i have leatherette, my bro-in-law has the leather and we could compare. he has the extending leg support seats.

i agree w/ most of your characterizations. i'll add the following:

coupé - panoramic moonroof
4 years maintenance/service vs 3 years
lifetime roadside assistance vs i forget
distinctive styling
cloth vs leatherette
mb leather is better than bmw leather imho
minipumpup spare vs fullsize alloy spare
smart key vs long/large key
excellent computer vs tiny computer that beeps at 37*°F (really annoying at this time of year) - also switches from whatever setting you have it at to show that the temp is 37°F - cannot turn off this notification feature. especially annoying whem temperature is hovering around 37°F.
amber vs red displays

thats all i can think of right now. i love both cars but for different reasons. but i would not buy another 325 again.

Mike E

klutch:

Ultimately you will make a decision based on your own criteria for determining value. Even so, here's my 2 cents.

I just went through the whole evaluation process and chose the C230 coupe. The 325ci was one of the cars I also considered. I never felt that there was enough to gain with the 325 to justify the extra cost. The base msrp of the 325ci is 29,745 while the C230 base msrp is 25,615. That is $4,130 more for the BMW, a 16% increase compared to the C230. Additionally, according to the BMW web site, the HID headlights are a $700 option on the 325ci. Also, the C230 includes items that the 325ci does not include at these prices: 1) rear airbags 2) auto dim mirrors 3) dual climate control 4) sport seats 5) adjustable height front center arm rest 6) homelink. There are many subjective evaluations to also consider. In that regard, what stood out most for me was that although the BMW handling was better, the C230 felt very similar. However, as far as ride comfort was concerned, I felt that the C230 was considerably better and that the 325ci might be a disappointment in that regard over many years of use.

I hope this is of some help to you!

Buellwinkle

Two more things in favor of the benz is service loaners (mostly E320, C320 and ML320s at my dealer), and the MB is a newer style, the BMW has had almost the same body for about 10 years. Although a BMW fanatic can tell the difference, I can't. Not that the BMW is a bad style, it's just dated.

SoCal240/6

I'd take the BMW Coupe over the MB Hatchback, even if the BMW cost a little more. (Although as far as pricing goes, you can't just go by sticker price, because BMW's MSRP is much higher than dealer's invoice, there is room to negotiate, unlike with MB, which operates at a 6% margin and doesn't leave much room. You can get a 325 for around $1000-$1500 over invoice. Check KBB.com, etc. for invoice on the BMW, add $1500 to get an idea of the true cost).

The silky smooth inline 6 alone is worth it. Plus, its a real coupe. It has a better engine, better gearbox and better styling, its a real sports coupe instead of a Hatchback that can be most charitably described as "cute." With the sport pack the 325I coupe is a serious sports sedan. (Not that there is anything wrong with Hatchbacks, if that is what you want the MB is probably a good choice and the best Hatchback out there).

As far as Hatchbacks go, the latest issue of Roundel has a pic of a new Ti that is coming (I think) to the US at some point. A 330Ti! With the big 6, around 225 hp, and an "M" body treatment. Looks very aggressive and will certainly be a silky-smooth rocket.

SoCal240/6

I've owned many BMWs, this is my first MB. Saying one should buy a MB because of their dealerships is crazy! BMW dealer (service, parts and sales) are nothing to write home about, but I've found MB dealers (service and sales) to be the WORST. Although I will agree that MB Laguna Niguel is pretty good. I live in Newport Beach 2 minutes from the MB dealer there, and they are so bad (I can give you a list of horrors so long its truly unbelievable) that I am forced to take the car to Laguna Niguel for service. Very inconvenient to not be able to use the local dealer.

Although none of the MB dealer's service departments seem to know squat about these cars. They acted dumb about the key recall, the "Malfunction 1" problem, etc.

Other MB dealers have not been good either, not at MB Beverly Hills, where I bought the car, House of Imports in Buena Park
(where I shopped the car), etc.

If dealership service is a concern get a Lexus (although you likely would only see them for regular service, unlike what seems to be the case with MB, where relationships with the service department seem to develop).

AndrewK

I am going through the same dilemma so I can understand how you go back and forth all the time. I was at one time up on the 325Ci but became discontented with the total lack of torque, and since I live in Atlanta, the fact is that everybody (and their dog ) really does have one. Since I like the style and rarity of the C230, if the C230 can be tuned to get sub-7 second performance for about the price of the 325Ci ($33,000) then I'll definately go for it. In the end its whatever you want, but here's a list of my plus/minus

BMW
+6 cyl
+handles nice
+shifter is superb
-low torque
-higher price

Mercedes
+unique style
+hatchback utility
+crash test scores
+6-speed
+nice interior
-engine needs some mods
-needs some nice rims

Anyway hope you enjoy your new car either way!

Andrew

mmutlu

Well, I have driven a BMW 3.25 coupe and I think the c coupe is much more comfortable than the BMW -I felt a little squeezed in the driver's seat. Acceleration was ok. but performancewise the c coupe beats it keeping it at the high rev. The thing I really liked about the BMW was the minimal cabin noise; c-coupe lets you hear the engine. As far as handling goes, I could not sense any difference.
I think they are both good so I say listen to your heart not your mind Don't hesitate to test drive them over and over again cause this is a close call and how you feel about driving them is the real determinant factor of your choice.

Rick

I agree with Buellwinkle....I went to my local BMW guy early one Saturday. I walked around the lot, looking at M3's, 325's, Z's and Mcoupes for almost an hour. I went inside and had to ASK to see a salesperson. When I asked him for a brochure, he said he'd 'be back in a minute'...I waited about 25 minutes and walked out. It wasn't until I took the top down on my MG, preparing to leave, that the sales manager came out to see what I was interested in. As that turned out, she only wanted to know if I was going to trade my MG in...

Truth is well documented about my experiences with the MB dealer...so I won't belabor that. But at least they semed interested in selling cars.

Rick

I agree with Buellwinkle....I went to my local BMW guy early one Saturday. I walked around the lot, looking at M3's, 325's, Z's and Mcoupes for almost an hour. I went inside and had to ASK to see a salesperson. When I asked him for a brochure, he said he'd 'be back in a minute'...I waited about 25 minutes and walked out. It wasn't until I took the top down on my MG, preparing to leave, that the sales manager came out to see what I was interested in. As that turned out, she only wanted to know if I was going to trade my MG in...

Truth is well documented about my experiences with the MB dealer...so I won't belabor that. But at least they semed interested in selling cars.

sidenote: Visited the BMW site....you should see the way they slam the MB coupe....says something about class...and lack thereof

Mike E

Clearly, the actual price paid will determine the final result for any individual's value equation. MSRP is a good starting point to begin sorting through all of the possible choices. This discussion, however, involves just two final contenders. To that point, here are some specifics. BMW pricing from base msrp to invoice represents a gross profit margin of 9.5%. BMW gp% on options is 15%. BMW offers no Holdback for their dealers. Mercedes pricing is a straight 7% gross profit margin on all model cars and options. However, Merceds also provides 3% Holdback to their dealers. It is probably realistic to expect a dealer to be willing to accept a total profit margin of 6% on the sale of a car that is in high demand (as both of these models are). Especially when ordering a car, where the dealer incurs no interest expense to carry a car in inventory, it is reasonable to include Manufacturer Holdback in the gross profit calculation. That being the case, a similar percentage discount off of list on either a BMW or a Mercedes would put the dealer in the same range regarding gross profit %. A discount of approx. 4 to 5 percent would result in a gross profit percentage of approx 6%. Therefore, it should be realistic to target a 4 to 5 percent discount off of the total list price on either of the cars you are considering.

zimmer26

It is strange that the majority is saying 325. Its a good car and I've driven several of several different vintages including the latest. I'd echo most of Youngs comments and add that I felt the C230 to be more playful and willing than the serious, grown up 3 that has lost some of its youthful sport and tossability over the years IMO. Two very different looking cars but I'm not here to sell cars- buy whatever the heck makes YOU happy dude.

PS Klutch- You contradicted yourself twice buy telling us that you don't care that there are millions of 3's out there and that added cost of the 3 is no object yet you list BOTH them on your pros for Merc! What the?
I also think you should checkup on those standard xenons as well because they're not. Sounds like you've basically wasted our time. Just thought I'd point that out to ya'll.

Don't want to cause conflict just telling it like it is.
Peace - luck and happiness with the new wheels.

Zimmer

Buellwinkle

What SoCal240, don't you appreciate the hair salon and cappucino bar while you get your car washed free at Fletcher Jones? I was almost getting envious, MB of Laguna Niguel just has plain coffee, although it's strong. I used to get great service from Jim Slemons until they got bought out by Fletcher Jones who prides himself on the pretty showroom over service. And Mission MB was pretty bad 15 years ago but in the last 6-8 years and since they moved to Laguna Niguel they certainly improved. House of Imports has great service if you don't mind being ripped off. They wanted to do $3,000 of work after an oil change which I took to another dealer and said that none of the work was needed. At BMW of Irvine you would be lucky to get your car fix on the third or fourth try and they don't do loaners. They told a friend of mine with an M3 with a check engine light on that they can't fix it and to live with it. He's now a happy C-sedan/ML owner. I would most definitely buy a car because of the reputation of a local dealer. When I bought a Suburban I refused to buy a Chevy because of the reputation of the local dealers and ended up with a GMC even though I could have gotten a better deal on the Chevy.

Beside I've driven the 325i on a test track and it's not that good. It's slow and has a lot of body roll. During transitions on slaloms I was getting motion sickness. On hairpin turns on rough surfaces it did not track as well as the C320 with noticable wheel hop. I was surprised because the magazines always favor the Beemer. Maybe they get sport optioned 330s with 5 speeds. Both didn't have the sport option and were automatics. I know you don't drive that hard but today I drove my wife's CR-V towing 2 dirt bikes on a trailer from Lake Elsinore and I hit 80 passing someone. I wish I had my coupe!!!

jungleboy

I sent an e-mail to the BMW folks re:the compact a few months back and the reply read that it is not coming to the U.S.A. It's a shame because I think the market for quality smaller cars is growing in this market. Plus, I think MB needs a little competition with the C-coupe; keep Germany on it's toes.

If any of you have any other info on an arrival of the compact to the U.S.A., please post away.

young

i just talked to my bmw salesguy and we were talking about the ti series. he said that they may release it but not this year. and that it may be rebadged as a 2 series.

btw, he really likes my coupé 'cept he would have gotten a stick. he likes sticks better than the new SMGII system which he drove; he thinks it's really slick/great but he's more comfortable w/ the clutch. btw, here's a plug for this dealership, don rosen bmw, was really cool (salesguy is Brian) unlike devon bmw which sucked big rotten eggs!

SoCal240/6

Actually, I don't take my car to the dealership for car washes. Don't have the time. It takes me 15 minutes to wash the thing myself. I don't much like they way they do their "free" carwashes, using dirty rags to dry the car. Cracks me up to see people waiting an hour for a "free" carwash.

In fact, when the car is there for service, I specifically ask them to NOT wash it.

I am a DIY'er by nature. I've never taken a car to a car wash in my entire life. Not once. That's in over 20 years of owning cars.

I also do all the work on my cars myself (unless its under warranty, of course, which is not common, since I buy quality cars and keep them for 10-15 years on average). That has included all service, maintenance, etc. on my BMWs and Porsches. With my BMW 535i, I recently removed the automatic transmission and replaced it with a proper 5 speed manual! I've at a miniumum removed the engine (for one reason or another) from every Porsche I've owned. I painted one of them myself. My garage is fully stocked with the tools necessary to do almost any repair on a German car, including engine rebuilds.

I am not a typical MB owner, in fact I am probably the antithesis. Most MB owners probably aren't really sure how to even open the hood and have never washed their car in their life. Nothing wrong with that at all, just different from me (I am the nut).

Although I am really only an MB owner on paper. The C is my wife's car, I really don't drive it much. To be honest, the C is not a car I would buy for my own personal use. The C's are good cars, and are certainly "cute," but "cute" isn't really what appeals to me in a car. The wife loves it, though.

nboyd

Having read the first two pages of this thread I decided to test drive the 325ci this weekend. Wanted to see if I was missing anything.

The purchase of my new car is to be approved by my wife. We only need one car so the car is for both of us.

The BMW dealer did not make eye contact with my wife. The MB dealer was a woman and could see that to sell us the car she needed to make my wife want the car.

The BMW dealer took 50 minutes before shaking my hand, not my wife's. A receptionist paged the sales guy and we waited in the lounge for 40 minutes before his brief appearance, he looked straight at me and said "325ci right?" and went and got the car out. Took another 10 minutes before we saw him again.

Do BMW feel that we would be lucky to buy the car from them and that they do not need the money?

The 325ci arrived and I liked the color but my wife thought it was too dull. Midnight blue with grey leather.

Outside it looked a bigger car and more like a traditional Coupe also very similar to the sedan (zzzz.).

Inside there were no gadgets and I love gadgets. It looked too simple and plain. Sales guy feels MB have moved away from their values by adding creature comforts.

Driving experience was not great. It didn't feel quick to the pedal. To get some acceleration I had to really push on the pedal and even then it didn't feel that quick. My Focus ZX3 feels more responsive when you start accelerating. I'm sure this is perception but that is what it's about.

To surmise my experience the difference was that I walked away from the C-Coupe and was disappointed to be driving my Focus and not the C-coupe. I did not feel the same way about the BMW I didn't feel like I would be getting that much more for my money than the Focus.

Sorry to those who own BMW but it is just my opinion.

Nathan