kw230

I saw the stock plugs look like NGK Iridium, so I suggest that wait until they are worned. Mine's are completely boiled with oil due to some leaking problem before, so i need the change them.

Zeppelin

You have a bad boost gauge. There is no way this supercharger puts out 9-10psi of boost at 2500rpms. And there is no way you are getting 14-15psi of boost at redline. If you are then the supercharger will not last long. The Eaton (roots supercharger) will burn itself up at anything more than 12psi. And even 8psi and above is beyond it's effiency range so the increase in boost gives less and less hp per pound of boost.

You have a bad boost gauge

kw230

any prove??
This over boost situation is in very cold weather, or some boost control problem from the computer... The boost gauge seems fine...I will wait until Eason's friend get his ASP pulley and see how it does on boost

linh

So you think that there's a problem some where now? What made you realize this?

linh

Eason,

They hook up the boost gauge meter my friend. Don't even think the Vadim@Evosport does not know how to measure the boost. I got 9.5 psi at redline in third gears.


My stock heat range is 7 and i'm using Kleemann 2-step colder plugs right now.

Outland

I'm totally confused now.

I thought the stock M111 motor was only running 5psi of boost, and that the newer M271 was running 11psi of boost. The boost level on the M271 still doesn't sound right. 11psi? That thing should be making over 189HP...

Yet, Eason and KW230 are getting a lot more than what they should. Were these gauges calibrated?

I'd love to have 15psi, but I'm scratching my head how this is possible.

eason

linh:
I didn't say Vadim@Evosport don't know how to measure boost, we are just here to share informations and find out problems, you seems to be very negative about our posts. Do you know how Evosport measure your boost with? I mean do they tap in to a hose with a boost gauge or place a sensor inside the maniflow?

I will try to measure the boost again with my OBD-II scanner, I hope it can pick up the boost singal from the Mass Air Sensor.

Outland:
I think the stock boost for the M111 is max at 0.5bar (7.35PSI) not 5PSI, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

linh

Eason,

I didn't mean it that way. I just want you to know that Vadim@Evosport is an EXPERT when it come to tuning. So he know what he's doing. Honestly to tell you, i didn't remember how Vadim measure it but 2 other shops taped into the vaccum line. Btw, stock boost is 0.5 bar. since you have the scanner, can you also check to see how much timing the ECU is pulling back too?

DCXdynodog

Your boost #'s for M271 are correct as far as I know (for stock pulleys- DCX engineering source) and the M111 #'s are the same as what I have heard.

The M271 is a much smaller CI engine so for the same size blower you have to overdrive it harder to make the same power.
(i.e. 192 vs 189 is almost the same) And then you lose some efficiency from that (more heat is made in the inlet charge air)
Also the cyl head airflow is not as nice as it could be (this means more boost needed to make the power) so your #'s are believable to me.

Looked at another way: The M271 has a higher specific output (105 hp / liter) vs M111 (83.5 hp / liter) so it is making more power.

I know the blower (M271) is not any larger (than M111) and it *may* have gotten smaller.

14 psi is max before efficiency is lost in the m45 eaton

As for other's boost numbers, who knows?
Some of the #'s I have seen do not make total sense.

1. Need to know where they plumbed the guage into, can't be located before the throttle which is after the blower. Needs to be in the manifold itself for best results.

2. Could the bypass valve be used as a "wastegate" as some suggest? yes... Is it? have not been able to determine that yet.
The bypass valves main purpose is to relieve the boost during part throttle operation to reduce drag created by the blower. (thus increasing fuel mileage)
If you look at the torque curve for the 2 engines, the M271 is "peaky" compared to the M111. So, it is unlikely the bypass is being used to bleed off boost. I think it's all she's got and the goal was probably to get "equal" power to the M111 for marketing purposes and better fuel economy.

The M111 has such a flat torque curve (200 lb-ft from 2500-5000 rpm) that it would not surprise me if it they were using the bypass to torque manage the engine (to save the drivetrain)
but, and it's a big but, if this was the case a pullley would be ineffective and a chip could be recalibrated to up the boost.

Does this help? Or is it just more confusing now...

linh

Kleemann,

I'm surprised that youor Evosport don't even care to response to this post, after all, you guys should know about the products you sell. Anyone one of you guys would give be able to give us a clear answer !!!! I guess you only willing to help you when try to sell a products but after you made a sell, is another story.

eason

The RED arrow on the picture is the hose we tapped into, it is just after the throttle plate. The BLUE "X" was the hose I tapped in before and I find that was the WRONG one. ( because it is Before the Throttle Body).

eason

The part inside the RED circle is the bypass valve. Once the engine starts running, the plate inside the bypass valve continuous adjust itself in by open and close to release the excess boost. I can feel the air blowing out of the bypass valve even at idling. (I know that because I took off of the second part of the air box and looked at the bypass valve closely.)

kw230

I am pretty sure that what cause the high boost to my car.
It is due to the upsolute chip, this explain why someone did a dyno with a stock Ccoupe with the Upchip and get 20hp in high speed. The chip is manage to let highest boost to the engine, it close the wastgate at high speed while the stock would release the extra boost. I dont think 15psi would hurt my engine, so this "problem" should not be a "problem" at all, our 2.3 motor with 8.8:1 compression ratio and a iron block, plus my motor is running fine without any ping and knock, so it is fine.

I think the maxium boost level in the stock 2.3 engine is 7psi, 5psi is just when the engine below 5000rpm.

Hey linh, please dont shoot to everyone.
I am just sharing information here, it is not necessary for you to worry about my boost level, fuel mixture, engine problem...etc, I have someone who is also a tuning EXPERT taking care of my car.
Btw, THANKS .

Zeppelin

All I can say is we have been burning these M45 blowers up at 12psi of boost on 1.6L Honda motors. The excess heat that is generated by the roots type blower at these psi levels burns up the sperm oil they use in them and then the bearings go bad. I have been running 9psi for 4 years and 60k miles with no problems. 14 psi is too much.

Hell, the Lyscolming Blower on the C32 is beyond it's efficiency range at 17psi and these blowers are designed for higher boost levels than the roots blowers.

eason

I will wait for the ASP pulley and see what kind of boost can a pulley produce with the stock ECU.

Cory @ Kleemann

That would be Lysholm, not lyscolming. Beyond it's efficiency range? I think not. The reason the AMG setup is running boost that high, is because there is a TREMENDOUS pressure drop over the intercooler. By the time you measure manifold pressure, post intercooler, it's somwhere in the range of 11-12 psi. KLEEMANN, on the other hand, has less than 1 psi pressure drop over the intercooler.

Closed oiling systems on a supercharger=burnt bearings. If the supercharger system, more specifically the oiling system is designed properly, (fresh oil feed via the engine's oiling system, not a closed design) your supercharger will last much longer. Example: whipple systems. They use an Autorotor kompressor, but with a closed oiling design. They recommend changing the kompressor oil every 60,000 miles. what!?! No wonder their kits are so un-reliable. Wouldn't you feel better knowing that every time you change your engine oil, you are also changing the oil for your kompressor? I sure would.

Outland

Given that the 1.8 is a new from the ground up design, and that it sports variable valve timing on both sides, as well as a few other tricks, 189HP with 11psi does seem like its loafing, no? Sure, its 500cc's smaller, but plenty of other engines get close to that same same specific output without a blower. 200 or more HP, with similar torque, would have taken all the controversy out of the change to the 1.8L mill.


Is it possible that given the relatively high(at least compared to the M111) boost on the M271, its just generating a lot of heat, and loosing much of the effectiveness of the high boost? I know with superchargers you reach that point quicker than you do with turbo boost...the supercharger's parasitic nature ensures that.

Quote:

The M111 has such a flat torque curve (200 lb-ft from 2500-5000 rpm) that it would not surprise me if it they were using the bypass to torque manage the engine (to save the drivetrain)
but, and it's a big but, if this was the case a pullley would be ineffective and a chip could be recalibrated to up the boost.

Anyway to just manually unplug the bypass? That would tell you right away if the bypass is operating that way. I have a feeling that's not the case, but hey it sure would be a cool trick for getting 'free' HP.

DCXdynodog

That's why I brought up the cyl head issue, they had a chance to make it better and make more power for any given boost level and CHOSE not to. I do not know why. Could be any number of reasons; cost, mileage, reliability, somebody's ego got bruised, Take your pick. I don't know, but I feel they misjudged the market for this car.

Yes, more pressure = more heat. A more efficient intercooler would be a good 1st step IMO. A larger blower running slower would be nice but there is no room for that and, oh yea, the cost...


Both the throttle and bypass are electronically controlled, I don't know if the bypass defaults open or closed but it may default to open for safety reasons (the electronic throttles default to almost closed for that reason) Try it and let us know bet it sets off a few fault codes though :p

kw230

I think it is impossible to run the car without the bypass valve. When the engine in idle, the valve need to open and let extra air from the blower comes out, since idle use very less air. Also when lifting off throttle at high engine speed, the bypass valve needs to open too!! If the bypass valve has been unplug or disable, the engine shouldnt run normal, check engine light will on for sure, and may locked up itself(engine cannot start).

Zeppelin

Exactly - the roots blower is a closed oiling system. It is not lubricated by engine oil.

Outland

Why hinder the flow? There's so many other ways to reduce the power output without sabotaging its potential. With the 1.8, yes they misjudged it certainly. The 2.3 is noticeably more powerful, and has enough mods out there that youve got some upgrade paths. But it too should be making more HP than 192 given its displacement and the fact that its boosted. Its a wonderfull car, but MB could have made a real impression had they offered a more powerful motor as a reasonably priced option.

Quote:

Yes, more pressure = more heat. A more efficient intercooler would be a good 1st step IMO. A larger blower running slower would be nice but there is no room for that and, oh yea, the cost...

Anyone with an 03 tried that yet?

Quote:

Both the throttle and bypass are electronically controlled, I don't know if the bypass defaults open or closed but it may default to open for safety reasons (the electronic throttles default to almost closed for that reason) Try it and let us know bet it sets off a few fault codes though :p

It would be nice to have a light or something that tells you when the bypass is activating. If it starts bleeding off boost at 5K, then you'd know there's some hidden power there.

x15jq

I was thinking about this, im not very smart on the subject, but what if we just disconected the bypass, Would this yeild additional performance since we arent losing boost, or would it just blow the thing up fro super boost?


Maybe there is a way to tap the wire to see when its running, or better yet install some type of resistor to prevent it from opening? Or jamming it?

I just see everone saying the bypass is regulating boost. What if the bypass could regulate at a higher PSI?

Just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong lol

x15jq

Heheh, didnt notice someone already suggested that!

Anyways, what I mean, could we LIMIT how much the valve opens or when it opens through some means of electric. If we could control how much open it is, that would determine the psi correct?

kw230

Yes.

But the most safe and efficicent way is to buy a crank pulley for more boost.

levelr123g

why not just remove the butterfly from the bypass valve and use an external electronically adjustable bov, like they use on turbos. this way you could regulate all the boost you want. by removing the butterfly you would not throw any fault codes because the valve would still be moving, the computer wouldnt know the difference.