BlackLiquorish8

i just changed my oil today at a gas station. they were finishing up on a a older benz and closing at noon. The guy fit me in i got out early on friday and went to the dealer to pick up that copper seal and oem oil filter. I felt such a difference after. The response is much better and damn that oil was blaaaack. I think i'm just going to change it every 6 months from now on... and yea i still have to change the air filter.

btw thanks to advans for the product numbers

if you havent changed the oil in 12 months def change it even if the computer doesnt indicate to

Moviela

In the distant past motor oil was motor oil no matter who refined it. The situation today is quite different.

First, Mobil 1 has many variations and only one is approved for use in Mercedes cars with gasoline engines. The oil is designed to work as a system with an improved long life oil filter. The filter was created by Mann+Hummel for Mercedes. Mercedes likes to call it fleece, but it is not made of wool. It is polyester.

The main difference in the Mobil 1 0W-40 from other viscosities is the amount of additives. There is a lot more in Mercedes sheet 229.5 approved oils. The reason there is a 12 month limit regardless of mileage is because as soon as you start the motor the additive package begins to deteriorate. This is because of the products of combustion that enter the crankcase cause the depletion of the additives.

Glyn's posts are dead on accurate, as are the thoughtful contributions of Buellwinkle, mleskovar, and others. I would add that synthetics not only lack the wax in conventional oils, there is no varnish either.

If there is any drawback to synthetic oil, it is that the stuff sneaks through seals that would block the conventional oils.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes, indeed Moviela - more and more lubricants are being seen as components of a vehicle that are considered from day one in the design and are tailored to meet an OEM's specific requirements

& yes Varnish formation is mainly contributed to by the more polar oxidised hydrocarbon fractions. Synthetics mitigate against this by not forming the nasties caused by oxidation of petroleum base oils mentioned above in the first place. Synthetics, especially diesters & polyol esters have a detergent effect of their own, even before the addition of detergent/dispersant additives that keep any of these nasties that might occur, solubilised instead of depositing out as varnish. I'm not knocking conventional lubricants. Well formulated with good base oil they do a fine job and have done for years. If used correctly & changed more often they are fine. But - when it comes to extended drains in good Merc engines let's stick to our synthetics thanks.

Your seals comment is an interesting one. Elastomer compatibility can be an issue with all lubricants and especially synthetics but today this has been sorted. OEMs use the right materials for seals and PCMO formulators whether mineral or synthetc make sure their products work well with those materials. While some early synthetics did not swell seals to the same degree as mineral oils leading to leaks. There are today, fortunately, a whole host of seal swell additives that will allow controlled seal swell to obviate this. As the Chinese say we live in interesting times.

Glyn M Ruck

Not so - this is inaccurate - I stick to my big three - Contamination, Oxidation & Additive Depletion

The Lubricants industry has a very clear mapping of the amount of shear of the lubricant that takes place in the bearing area, ringbelt area, cam & follower area etc. and a huge amount of data is available on HTHS (high temperature, high shear)

There are two types of shear that take place. Temporary shear & permanent shear.

Temporary shear can vary greatly between base fluid types effectivelly giving temporary viscosity reduction. This is why synthetics perform better in HTHS situations. They suffer from less temporary shear. Permanent shear of both Mineral & Synthetic base fluids is miniscule. Mineral base fluids suffer slightly more permanent shear leading to very minor viscosity drop due to the fact that they have more long chain molecules in the mix than synthetics which are purposely built with more stable short chain molocules.

Never would any base fluid permanently shear out of grade with resultant viscosity loss that rendered it unfit for service and thus be a primary reason to change the oil.

You might be getting confused with stories you have heard that relate to what are know as Viscosity Index Improvers (VIIs) or Viscosity Modifiers.

VIIs are used in the formulation of Multigrade oils with a greater proportion in Mineral oils of the same grade as Synthetics which have inherently high VI. VIIs are made from solubilised milled polymer and have a tendency to shear or as you say get cut up.

In the days of Alex Issigonis' cursed Austin Mini the engine and gearbox oil was common. Multigrade engine oils were in their infancy formulated with not very shear stable VIIs. The products were SAE 20W-50 and they would shear out of grade due to the VII being chopped up in the gearbox. Modern VIIs are considerably more shear stable.

No modern Engine Oil will shear out of grade making it unfit for further service and certainly no base fluid will shear out of grade.

Thus the quote above is invalid & certainly not a primary reason for changing oil.

ChrisBrown

I'm going to stick to that routine as well. I'm coming up on one here in a month.

Moviela

Help me to understand your thinking. If your gas tank were half full, you would not drain it and replace it with "new" gas would you? If the oil in your crankcase is depleted by half, does it offer any advantage to change it?

I would never tell anyone how to maintain their car (I wash mine too often) but would you consider sending your oil for analysis at Blackstone for $20 to see how much "life" is left? It might increase our comfort level to go for full measure of the oil and filter you are paying for.

ChrisBrown

It's quite simple. First, I have a harsher set of miles in Phoenix, in the desert, and with stop and go driving.

Second, this is my car. I care about it. I'm going to baby it. If I can afford to do this every 6500 miles, and not stretch the oil any farther than I have to, "just to get the most out of it", I'm not.

My engine matters to me, and I'm not going to stretch my oil to 13,000 miles.

mleskovar

If it matters so much to you then have the oil analyzed and take the guesswork out of your change cycle. Right now you could just be giving yourself a false peace of mind.....maybe every 6500 miles is not enough! 13K miles is not a 'stretch'. If everyone had your attitude about changing oil we'd be in even more trouble with producing it than we are today.

Glyn M Ruck

Hi Chris,
I'm certainly not going to try and change your mind. Changing oil more often than you have to is certainly not going to do any harm apart from to the environment - only good for the car. I always used to do a halfway drain on my cars because I did not pay for the oil and I'm also very picky - a damn Virgo! need I say any more. I no longer do this but I always sample to see what's going on. Modern oils are simply amazing.

Having spent 37 years in the oil industry most of us sampled our oil regularly, and I've literally looked at hundreds of thousands of oil samples for customers.

I'm going to make some recommendations that are going to be seen as controversial but are firmly supported by years of studying sample trends in both the automotive & industrial spheres - industrial being my true area of expertise. (thus my filtration experience is sound)

1) Don't change the oil filter at the halfway oil change. Used & slightly blinded oil filters do a better job than new ones (BUT DO CHANGE AT THE RECOMMENDED INTERVAL - IF THE OIL FILTER GOES INTO BYPASS WE HAVE A MESS ON OUR HANDS). Also don't disturb the oil filter unnecessarily.

2) Don't disturb or change the air filter unless you have to or have good reason to believe it is effecting airflow. Especially in dusty or polluted areas. I've been to Phoenix when living in Dallas for a number of years so I understand your conditions - (Once again DO change the filter when recommended)

Every time you disturb a filter and especially the air filter a certain amount of debris ends up going down the inlet system or into the sump - never mind how careful - & service technicians are not careful.. One can clearly see the silica blip in the upward direction in an oil sample after disturbing filters & this is no good. This is obviously much worse in mining situations etc. clean oil funnels etc also help.

Cummins ran a test many years back to see just how much dirt it takes to destroy a diesel engine and documented it in a film called, most appropriately, "The Hourglass" - answer - one heaped teaspoon !!!

I firmly believe that cars that don't have unnecessary trips to the dealer workshop but are properly maintained - are the most reliable cars. Frequently - more harm is done in dealer workshops than good by ignorant and ham fisted mechanics. I supervise my car being serviced and won't even allow them to wash or vacuum it unless I am present - result - immaculate & unscratched interior. Not a swirl in the paintwork from dirty water, dirty sponges, buttons, zips, chains, watches etc. etc. & I won't go near a Carwash - touchless or, heaven forbid - with brushes.

ChrisBrown

Thanks for your sound advice. It's nice to see someone being polite in here.

mleskovar, you're entitled to be passionate about what you have chosen to be your service interval. However, quite frankly, you're being a bit of a jerk. I'm sorry my choice doesn't match yours, but please, be a bit more polite about it. It's my money, my car, and my choice. I'm not getting in the way of yours. Relax man.

mleskovar

Are you old enough to have a driver's license? Your name calling is juvenile and not warranted. It's OK for you to not care for someone's else's opinion but to discount facts shows a lack of intelligence.

ChrisBrown

Bud, you seriously need to relax.

mleskovar

You seem to be the one that has their knickers twisted. I'm not sure what prompted you to name calling but if you're not interested in other people's experience I wonder why you bother to post questions? Do you just pick out the answers you like and discount the rest?

ChrisBrown

Actually my knickers are on straight, I just checked.

Moviela

I am reading this in my sauna, I have also checked, and my knickers are in the hamper.

I am wondering about Glyn's point of a slightly used oil filter being better than a new one. My own experience with motor oils and industrial solvents tells me that is 100% correct with paper filters. I recall reading a paper that explained test data that the new paper was less effective until some of the "holes" were blocked by particles too large to pass through. I wonder if the polyester filters mimic the experience of paper filters, or are they fully effective out of the package?

TemjinX2

aren't the new oem filters fleece? so they last longer?

c230K415

I might be way off but I guess I'll take a try....I guess if the filter media of the oil filter were like the old oil filters that could only filter down to a size say about 30 microns....then I guess having some holes blocked by particles too large to pass through would prove a slightly used oil filter being better.
However with most oil filters today (or at least the ones I purchase) filter down to the 5-10 micron range which would kind of defeat the purpose of using a slightly used oil filter to help filter, since the oil filter out of the box itself can filter very well without needing to have holes blocked by particles too large to pass through.
I don't know too much about the fleece filters we supposedly have though, I have no idea on the specifications on them...I've just been following the : "just put the OEM oil filter in there...no aftermarket stuff"

Glyn M Ruck

Hey man - enjoy the sauna. I've got jackhammers going at home at present installing a nice big indoor Jacuzzi. Then I too will be able to relax while contributing to the forum!

I knew this post of mine would be controversial & nowhere can I find the specs for the fleece oil filter. The Diesel fuel filter of M+H using the same technology is 3 micron nominal 5 absolute - no stated Beta Ratio & effectively includes an anti pump-through layer it would appear. They claim their MULTIGRADE O_SYN medium (fleece) oil filter has a potential life of between 30 & 50,000 Kilometers. This would depend on debris carrying capability and this is not stated.

Irrespective of the media type the principle I have stated remains valid. The question is does it matter in the real world and experience tells me yes and the unnecessary disturbing of filters is also something I stand by.

As filter media production methods have improved so the uniformity of "hole" size in the media has improved & this closes the gap between nominal & absolute ratings for a filter in one pass. It still does not take away the fact that filters improve with use until the differential across the media exceeds design for a specific application & restricts flow.

When Donaldson developed the Syntec range of filters they bought their own paper plant so that they could control, as best they could, the characteristics of the synthetic media. What I know is that a Syntec element of 1 micron nominal, 3 micron absolute, 75 Beta Ratio will give you an ISO cleanliness level of 16/11 in one pass and better of course in multipass. (sorry I'm a metric guy - I don't know what this is in NAS. I also don't know what the measure is in the new ISO 3 point measuring system because I've done no testing in that system). What I do know is that running oil in an engine at 16/11 or cleaner gives demonstrable & considerable improvements in engine life. It would be interesting to know what the fleece filter can achieve. It would also be interesting to know how the fleece filter performs when it comes to particles being pumped through the media over time with oil pressure rising & falling or pulsing. Donaldson overcome media pump-through by installing an anti pump loose layer on the outside of the main media that also pulses with pressure change & dumps the debris into the bottom of the canister. I suspect that the fleece filter would look pretty darn good in this regard.

ChrisBrown

What is the spec of the filter that dealers use?

Also, can I request that the filter is not changed on a visit? I've never thought about making that request before. I might now.

UK-C200

Gly, all I can say is that the level of expertise found on this forum never ceases to amaze me! I'm still working in the oilfield, but on the upstream side - so while I can tell you more than you want to know about finding it and getting it out of the ground in the first place, the downstream side is black magic to me.

I'm coming up on my first year of ownership, and have put all of about 4k miles on my C 200 Kompressor. Service A is due in about a month, and I'm just waiting to see the indicator pop up.

Obviously I do a lot of short (< 5 mile), low speed trips, and a few longer ones on the weekends. I'm more than willing to have my oil tested, and have a couple of quick questions.

First, I'm going to have it done rather than do it myself, and I'll probably let the dealership do it - simply don't have the time, space, or proper facilities to do it myself. (Anyone in London what to pop down for pints?! :-) )

I'm wondering who - in the UK preferably - would y'all recommend to test it, and what's the best way to go about getting said "sample"? I can always ask my SA to save me a bit, but that seems fraught with disaster! :P

Glyn M Ruck

Chris,
The filter is the genuine Mercedes Fleece filter manufactured by Mann+Hummel - Germany - either comes in a genuine silver & white MB box or a Mann+Hummel box see pic attached - I will try & find part number for you. You drive C240 - not so? Dealer just needs to check the VIN number of your vehicle. Please understand I am suggesting you continue to change at 13,000 miles. Just don't change at 6,500 oil change. Yes you can instruct the dealer not to change it at 6,500 and you will not be violating warrantee.

Glyn M Ruck

Hi - we all have our areas of expertise. I have learned a staggering amount from the good people on this forum. Phone the Noria Corporation or any major oil company's technical department and ask them who in your area can do a competent analysis. If your vehicle is under warrantee let the dealer do the service and make sure they stamp the service booklet. The UK is like South Africa. When you come to sell the car one day, having a full service history will add to the value of the vehicle

Glyn M Ruck

Chris Oil Filter for C240 part numbers:

Mann+Hummel = Part no. 18-095 is a Mann HU718/5X according to Moviela
MB Genuine = MA000 180 26 09 according to my latest service invoice

Glyn M Ruck

Chris, Oil Filter for C240 part numbers:

Mann+Hummel = Part no. 18-095 is a Mann HU718/5X according to Moviela
MB Genuine = MA000 180 26 09 according to my latest service invoice

ChrisBrown

Great, thanks. I appreciate it very much.