oggle

I'd much rather get a V6, 4 seats, and better performance. The C240 should be upgraded to better compete with the 325's. MB definitely needs to hit the young crowd more.

The C230 is much more of a niche market. It's a 2 seater. Unless a household has other alternate cars to drive, most will pass up on it. It has very little practicality.

And just the fact that it's a V4, even if it's made to out-perform the 325's, just won't pull the would-be bmw customers away.

MB needs a serious BMW 325 contender.

Matt230K

I'm sure MB is delighted with C-Class sales. However in the past few months, all sales have been low, even C-classes with their lower prices. The market might still be strong in places like the west coast, but here in the midwest, sales have dropped a lot. I think introducing a new C-model will just mean more inventory sitting on the lot.

I doubt they are getting rid of the C240, but I hope they at least build fewer of them, so as to replace some of them with C230's. But if they increase production of the C-class line as a whole by introducing a new model, many dealers will have a lot of problems with overstock. In 2000, my dealer hardly had more than 10 C-classes at any one time. Right now, there are about 35 C-classes on the lot.

FrankW

uh...don't you mean I-4

anyway, oggle we're comparing between C230K sedan (if it does make it into the states) and the C240 sedan.

i guess what everyone wants to see is that MB up the horses in the C240 to compete with the 325 and A4 1.8T.

Outland

A V4, Gracie?

There is no such beast. Its an inline 4...V4s are general reserved for high end(high price, but not the highest performance) sportbikes. The 1.8L and the 2.3L Supercharged motors have better performance across the board compared to the 2.6L V6

Niche vehicle? Oggle, how many households have just one EXPENSIVE car as the sole transportation? I don't want a sedan. I prefer the smaller size and sleeker shape of the two door. I have four cars. And two motorcycles. Which do I drive the most? My C230K...I love it.

And its a four seater, not two as you stated.

A C230 sedan is great idea. Bring it.

Mike T.

I hate to be a pedant , but maybe you should ask Saab, Ford Germany and Lancia if there were V-4 engines in cars.

Outland

I did say 'generally' And yes, I know a few mfrs have tried it, but its been a dismal failure. A V4 requires too many more parts, costs more to cast and machine, and really doesn't offer any packaging or performance advantages over an inline engine.

As far as MB goes, there never was nor is there now a V4 MB engine

I hope.



I think so...

bagwell

They need to make this move to be more competitive....with a C230 Sedan...who would want the C240 if the prices are similar....this will make it a better match for the 325i.

I'd like to see that comparison...

a C230 sedan with a decent sport pkg (C7 wheels) versus the 325i.

trench

One thing that no one has mentioned is that it really doesn't cost MB anything to add this engine to the line-up. The motor will bolt right in - why not add a little more choice to the line-up? Comparing the power/performance characteristics of the W202 version of the C230K sedan to the W202 C280 shows that in the past MB has had no problem in the past producing cars that are quite similar.

My guess is that a C230K sedan will priced slightly less than the C240 (which may get beefed up a little in the future, considering that the C320 is supposed to become a C350 for 2004).

Cheers, BT

David N.

We need to first detrmine if MB is putting the 1.8 or 2.3 engine in the sedan. I've seen both engines mentioned in this thread.

Bringing the 1.8 would make sense, but only as a stripper car. Kind of like the BMW e36 318. It makes an MB even more affordable than it already is.

But putting the 1.8/2.3 in the sedan with a sport package makes no sense. The problem MB has is that the 240 does not have as much power as a 325, and does not handle as well as a 325. They need to offer a serious sports package on the 240, as well as increase hp to 184. This will eliminate the need for a 230 sedan.

A 2.3 sedan will fail just as miserably at competing with a 325 as the 240. Why? Because it has a 4 cylinder engine. Perception is a greater force than reality. The reality is, the MB 4 bangers are great engines with good power. But the perception amongst North Americans is that four cylinders are slow and rough, even with published specs @ 189hp. And, why buy a 4 banger, when you can get a six (325) for the same price? It doesn't make sense to most people.

I know I would buy a 325 over a 230 sedan. On the other hand, if I was desperate to buy an MB and I couldn't afford a 240 or 320, I would buy the stripper 180 sedan with cloth interior, etc, just so I could have the three pointed star in my driveway.

And another thing ALL of you are forgetting is that MB drivers are different from BMW drivers. MB drivers want different things. They want luxury, and quietness, and smoothness. Bimmer drivers want more of a sporty feel etc. If MB starts altering the characteristics of their cars to start attracting bimmer drivers, then they will alienate their core customers. How is this good for business? Honestly, most of you guys do not belong here. You all should have bought bimmers. So many of you b*tch about how your MB does not handle well, is slow, blah, blah, blah. Why didn't you just buy a BMW?

AndrewK

I think the majority of C230 supporters here are just making the case that the C240 should be kept for luxury buyers, and the C230 (1.8) w/ sport package added as a sportier alternative. This way a compromise that satisfies no one is created between the two models (like the C240 w/ the $3000 sport package)

Also what's wrong with wanting an M-B to handle better? Is that an unreasonable wish?

MarkL

The best thing they did was take that coarse-running engine out of the sedan market -- no way it would compete with smooth running V6's in other entry-level luxury segment vehicles. Do you think Lexus would put a rough 4-cylinder in the ES300? I don't think so for one minute.

I'm not surprised the C240 out-sells the 320. Same car, less HP, analog climate control. Excellent value for the $$$, plus until 2003, the only one w/ 6-spd. I bet the E320 out-sells the E500, SLK230 out-sells SLK320, etc, etc... People compromise to a certain extent and POWER is not always the overriding factor once you are out of the 16-29 age bracket

FrankW

MarkL, you are right that there was no V6 back in the W202 era, oh wait there is 99-2000. Yes the V6 is smoother, but when you can have a 4 cyclinder engine that is more powerful and equally as efficient wouldn't you want it? I know i would. anyway it's all about personal preference.

btw I look at ES300/Windom just an overprice Camry.

don't forget we live in the US where people loves big engines. Through out Europe you'll find less cyclinder more efficient engines more popular.

Agree with you second statement.

MacPhisto

Best post in the thread!

FrankW

for David N.

MB is no longer producing the 2.3 four cyclinder engine (for the C-class at least). all the four cyclinder model now use the 1.8 s/c four cyclinder engine with different model different output of hp and torque.

so it's not whether the 2.3 or 1.8 is coming, but whether the C230k with the 1.8 s/c engine will be here or not.

David N.

I addressed that scenario in my previous post. Regardless of the engine, a sport sedan with the 4 banger should not be sold in NA. Only a stripper version with the 4 banger should be sold.

MB should focus on upping the 240.

BlackC230Coupe

It took me about an hour to read pages 1-9 of this thread.

I understand that the C230 Sedan will probally be comming out soon but i will never get why, The C230 sedan will not be that HUGE a difference over the C240 sedan, so i think its just a waste.
If for some reason a person loved the Kompressor engine then i think they should just get the C230 Coupe. If they need a 4 door then oh well, MB can not please everyone.

The C-Class will now have more engine options then any other Model in the MB family. To me it is Unnecessary for such a slight change in performance.

Vince

I hate to sound like an *******, but some of the relpies in here are just stupid. It's not going to cost MB anything to put in the 1.8L engine in the sedan. Have you guys heard of this one car that audi makes. It's called the A4. It too comes with a 1.8L engine, and sells very well. Here's an idea... Why not offer a better engine that mb has already developed to its existing lineup. Not only will this make existing customers who want more power over the 240, but can't afford the 320, happy, it will attract customers who may buy cars from the competitor (in this case Audi). More customers = more profits.

As far as bmw is concerned, the 230 engine is still better then the 325 engine. The 325 may be a little smoother but that's because it's an I6. Can't you still have a good ride with good performance (eg AMG). Who say's mb buyers don't want performance? I buy MB's, I want better performance. A lot of you guy's here buy MB and alot of you want better performance. The 240 is a smooth car, with very good entry level luxury, however it lacks in performance. Adding the 230 to the sedan will help narrow the performance deficit in the entry level line up. Now all MB needs to do is offer a "better" sport suspension. A car can still be very comfortable with a tight precise suspension (eg new BMW 7 series - my uncle let me drive his sitting on 20" BBS's. Handles great and very comfortable.).

MacPhisto

Umm, yeah, ok. The BMW 6 is widely acclaimed, and rightfully so, as one of the greatest automotive engines the world has ever seen.

The C230 engine . . . well . . . let's just say it isn't going to be winning any awards or acclaim.

Nothing wrong with arguing, but let's not get too carried away!

Vince

check your sources... the 6 they are refering to is the 330 engine, NOT the 325.

oh and since your always complaining about people not using any sources to back their info up...

330 engine not 325!!!

Another source

is this enough...

speedfrk

I drove a 325i and my 2.3 coupe felt faster. I didn't really notice much difference in "refinement", but the BMW transmission is quite a bit better than the rubbery, notchy transmission in my car. I think the 1.8K engine will be fine in a c class sedan. Then MB has a car to sell the younger buyer looking for a sportier sedan, and the 240 to sell to their core clientele. Like I said earlier, MB has stated that they need to lower the average age of their buyers. It is in the mid 50's now and going up every year. So they have to come out with cars that attract younger buyers. A c class sedan with a 190hp supercharged engine and a decent sport package for under $30,000 would help them a lot.

potatobbq

Yeah, but Audi doesn't sell anything in between the 1.8T and 3.0 A4... If MB brings over a C230 sedan, I think it would be competing with the C240. It seems unnecessary for MB to bring over yet another engine option in the lineup when the performance difference is very minimal. It would make more sense if they were to get rid of the C240...

MacPhisto

Good point. And, good sources, too!

Although, having driven the BMW 323, 325, 328 and 330, I would say that the engines are all very similar in refinement - the 330 being the best mainly because it has the highest power.

And, that the 325 engine is still in a different class than the MB 1.8 or 2.3.

Nevertheless, kudos for making a good point.

MacPhisto

I agree with a lot of your posts and points, but not this one.

There is a huge difference between the BMW 325 engine and the 2.3 MB engine, as far as refinement (noise, vibration and harshness). Huge. Like comparing a sewing machine to a tractor.

David N.

No offense Vince, (and I don't mean to sound like an a$$h0le either) but YOUR post has got to be the stupidest one in this thread.

Do you honestly believe that the 230 engine is better than the 325? BMW makes some of the very best 6 cylinder engines in the world. Who cares if Wards auto world didn't rank the the 2.5L I6. It is still one of the best. I would take it in a heartbeat over the 230. There is no comparison. Any coupe owner here would probably take that in an engine swap if it was a hassle free conversion.

The reason so many coupe owners here bought their cars and not a bimmer was because there are "too many bimmers on the road, I want something exclusive". Not, "man that 325 engine is one POS. And it handles like a POS too."

If BMW's were rare, everyone here would be lining up to buy one.

As for your rant about MB buyers wanting performance:

Traditional MB buyers want luxury. If they wanted performance, they'd buy a bimmer. Why should MB risk alienating their core customer base for a few snivelling little whiners who are happy with nothing and nit pick at everything?

The only reason people compare BMW and MB is because they are both German, and both sell cars in the same price ranges. Both offer totally different characteristics in their cars and pursue a totally different market of consumer.

speedfrk

I think there is a difference in refinement, but not a "huge" difference. Certain things bother certain people more than others, so I will take the extra power of the 2.3K engine over the 2.5 BMW engine and live with what I feel is a slight difference in refinement. Besides, the 2.3K engine is downright silky compared with my 5.9 V8 Dakota