speedfrk

Seems typical for Mercedes now...
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content...._code=05282088

FrankW

it's not really bad press. Maybe they just had a car that has more problem than usual. All the problem they listed are found within the board members of this forum i believe.

C230K

Autoweek is owned by BMW

Lockbuster

It is not bad press, things happen to any vehicle and the dealership takes care of the warranty. It would be different if the dealership did not take care of the warranty or the vehicle kept having the same problems over and over again..

tifosiv122

All the problems seem cosmetic and such...no bad engines, no tranny slips, no major mechanical problems. Nobody buys a MB for the glove box quality....its for the mechanical quality that MB's shine.

Erik

Lockbuster

I agree 100%

speedfrk

FrankW, Bad press is when the press says something bad about you or your products. I think this qualifies. Just because all of these probelms have been seen before doesn't make them OK. In fact it makes it worse because they are obviously chronic problems that MB hasn't fixed. As the writer pointed out, they haven't had much seat time because the car is in the shop all the time. That's a problem for most people.

C230K, If Autoweek is owned by BMW, then so is C&D, R&T, CR, and every other magazine. They all pick the BMW over the MB. Every single one of them. BMW must have some deep pockets to buy off everybody.

tifosiv122, I think a differential qualifies as "mechanical". And, we will see what you think when your glovebox falls out. As for me, my transmission still grinds shifting into 2nd after 4 trips to the dealer and countless days of downtime.

You guys treat cars like religion. A little objectivity would help. I realize that people want to be proud of their posessions, but Mercedes quality problems are pretty well documented.

tifosiv122

I don't feel like arguing, but a 'whine' is not a major mechanical problem....talk to the M series BMW owners about mechanical problems, you'll be kissing your MB tires.

Erik

tommy

It's Xmas. For the sake of unity, can't we all get along and admit that MB quality ain't great, and that the 3 series as a whole is a better "sport sedan" than the c series?

Any problem is not a good thing, but it is nice to see that every single glitch was fixed properly the first time, which is good press compared to some of the horror stories that have been posted here previously.

I don't think that trotting out the blowing up M engines qualifies as a very telling sign of overall BMW quality, which has always been better than MB quality, unless you can find a publication owned by MB that says otherwise.

Jim Banville

What does that mean? "Better" handling? "Better" braking? "Better" acceleration? All the above? I don't do any real "performance driving", but the C240 is a VERY nice for our driving style - firm, but smooth suspension & quiet engine that serves up plenty of power once the car starts rolling. C240 has a MUCH better interior looks than the BMW and, from our experiences, nicer people at the dealerships we've visited. And BMW's are so "common". Blah

"All the time"? Is that what they said? Odd that they say that all the problems were handled quickly by the dealer, but yet in NINE months they can't get enough "seat time". I guess if you read betwen the lines, they are saying that they love the car so much that losing the car for just those few days in the shop out of the 270 days they've had the car so far, is killing them!

Before I had the instructions on installing the CD changer, I tried pulling out the glovebox in my C240. There was NO way that thing was gonna come out without removing the whole freakin dashboard. How there's just FELL OUT is beyond me.

As for our C240's long term reliability (about 15K miles in about 7 months), we have had: 1 check engine light which the dealer chalked up to a misfire at startup, a set of warped front rotors that I may have caused by washing the car (wheels) with cold water while the wheels/rotors were still HOT, and the common ESP-BAS error.

Johan Baecksin

Quote speedfrk
-------------------------------------
C230K, If Autoweek is owned by BMW, then so is C&D, R&T, CR, and every other magazine. They all pick the BMW over the MB. Every single one of them. BMW must have some deep pockets to buy off everybody.
--------------------------------------

In my opinion, BMW might be a better car to drive, and MB is a better car to own.

Magazines tends mainly to rate how well the car drives, and not how good it is to own. That's why BMW wins the tests, but I own MB's. (I recognize that this particular article actually would suggest othervice).

Cheers

C230K

I agree, car magazines today, need to look at the whole car and not just how they handle. Most cars today are to drive and enjoy not get out and race and see how quick you can take a corner. If they rated cars over all, think BMW might not be first. Oh well, we enjoy our cars and that's what it is all about, not about what a magazine thinks or who their sponsor are.
all the best and HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Tom

tberry

well for me coming from an Audi A4, i fell in love w/ German cars and dealership service. i looked at all luxury/sports Audi A4 1.8t, BMW 325 ci/i, MB C230, Infinit G35. For the price the MB was simply the cheapest: a sub 200hp engine easily tunable to 230hp, OEM sport susp, sunroof, bose audio, 17" OEM rims, factory fog, best auto tranny i've owned/driven, decent performance......after all this the C230 was the cheapest! You also get the MB name which I've mentioned a million times that ppl. look twice over Audi, Infiniti, and even the beloved BMW.

C230K

Do not think you will find another new car for sale, that has more standard features for the price than the Coupe. We got good value for the money.

FrankW

sounds like you're just ignorant and can't accept the fact that the 3-series IS a better sports sedan with all your personal opinion on the interior aside.

btw, I think anyone who bought the cars they like did not buy them because some magazine test say they are a better buy. People that say the 3-series should not be on the top of every magazine test are just being jealous because the car they bought is not the first choice by the magazines.

Jim Banville

Pardon me (biting my lip before sinking to your SoCal240-ish attitude), but to what am I ignorant? I asked WHAT CLASSIFIED THE BMW AS A BETTER SPORTS SEDAN. Did I say the C240/320 was a BETTER SPORTS SEDAN? No. Did I say I like my C240 better, and that it suits my driving syle? YES. I have no experience with BMW's reliability, but I pointed out what has been good reliability with my MB, with only couple minor quirks. Sounds to me your ignorant to the difference between a question and a statement

Jens C320

I haven't had time to drive a C320 extensivly since mine won't come until end of January, but I did drive a 2000 BMW 328i with Sport Package in Germany for about 5 months. I am not sure what makes the BMW the "better" sport sedan but the handling is amazing, the car feels perfectly balanced in all situations, the feel of the car, everything from the brakes, steering, general feedback, the car seems to talk to the driver. The down side was a rather firm ride with the sport suspension and 17" wheels with 45 series ZR rated tires. I would definatly choose a different car for long distance drives, especialy with the bad roads here in the USA. Reliabilty, well, I've had a few problems (most minor, like a squeaking seat and a couple of plastic items binding and squeaking which the dealer all solved), the biggest problem I had was a faulty thermostat, which was later on recalled by BMW, other than that the car seemed to be able to go a lot further than the 65000 miles on the odometer when I sold it (primarly sold it because I wanted something with all-wheel drive and more comfortable, would have chosen the 3 series all-wheel drive wagon if BMW USA would offer the 3.0L engine instead of the 2.5L). I also had a chance to drive a C320 for about 45 minutes in Germany, it was a relativley new car (~8000km) which a friend of mine owned, so I know it hadn't been abused before. The C320 Auto was about as fast as my 328i Manual to about 120mph, after that the C320 gradually lost speed. However, I don't judge speed as a measure of how "sporty" a car is (heck, I think the Ford Focus RS is one of the best performance cars because of its great handling). One item I noticed is that the C320 had a tendancy to bounce the front end up and down over bumps when going about 130-140mph which the BMW didn't (ok, the C320 didn't have the sport suspension, but a BMW 320i I had as a rental with the non-sport suspension didn't do that either). The C320 seemed more to float and felt disconnected whereas the BMW felt like it was still on "rails". However, the C320 provided a more comfortable ride at these speeds, in the BMW one could feel every bump and subjectivly it seemed louder. So, within my experiences with the C320 and 3 series BMW I think that the BMW is the better sport sedan and that the C320 is a more comfortable car (but no slouch).

I don't want to step on anyones toes here, but I though I would share my experience with both cars.

David N.

Why people argue about BMW vs MB is beyond me. If MB was korean we would not be having this discussion right now. The only reason people compare them is because they are both German and they sell cars in the same classes and price ranges. Price and origin are really all they have in common. BMW's are made to handle well and provide a sporty ride. MB's are made to be luxury cruisers. Auto mags will ALWAYS rate BMW's higher than most, if not all cars because they are so fun to drive, and they have some of the best straight 6 engines in the world. You don't hear lexus owners crying that there cars should be #1 because they are more reliable.

Just enjoy your car. If you like it then that's all that matters.

FrankW

Quote: "What does that mean? "Better" handling? "Better" braking? "Better" acceleration? All the above?"... I'm pretty sure when someone say "better car" we all know what it means. There is no reason to break it down into details, we're not magazine editors, you know.

Also, when you said "our" it sounded more like "we;C240 owner" (to me). I mean if you're on the board by yourself, posting by yourself, I think it would make more sense if you say "I;My car" instead of "our".

btw, it's not like the C-class or MB is not common.

MB-BOB

IMO, you need to read not only this (3rd Quarter Update), but also the first and second quarter updates (see links to the right). It seems the opinions vary by author... One calls the seats too hard, another says they are too soft.

And, the shift boot, announced as cheap in the 3rd update, was announced as broken by dealer service personnel in the 2nd quarter update. As usual, authors don't compare notes.

By my math, they've driven the car over 23,000 miles in 9-months. They can't "hate" the car if they are driving it that much.

I just completed a 1,600 mile trip from Dallas to St. Louis and back. I arrived at both ends as refreshed as any other car I have driven similar distances.

BTW, let's have intelligent discussion without calling each other "ignorant," please.

speedfrk

OK since I started this, let me clarify something. I think the base C230 coupe is the steal of the decade for 25,000.00 cars. As you add options, it is less of a good deal because MB options are outrageously priced (except for C7). But my complaint is that their quality is lacking now. Magazines and consumer rating services like JD Power and CR have statistics to back this perception up. If my dealer was 10 min from my house, it would be less of a factor, but I lose a day everytime I have to take the car in. So quality is very important to me. I just don't have the time (money) to lose messing around with a car. A rattling glovebox is nothing to me- I would fix it myself, but my transmission problem is infuriating. I'm not even sure I could trade this car in because if they test drove it I think they would ask me why the trans shifts so badly. MB says it is "normal". Plus, when I look at the trade in values for this car, it has lost 7-8K in less than one year. So much for MB high resale value. I could retail it myself, but I would feel guilty about selling it to someone with the crappy transmission.
So for me it isn't only about whether MB or BMW or Infiniti is a "better car" in the magazine test sense, it is about more than that-like how often do I have to take it in, and can they fix it right the first time. Different things matter to different people. Quality and reliability matter to me, which is why I bought a MB in the first place. The article I cited, while not statistically relevent by itself, seems to be the experience of a lot of people. I have had several unreliable cars in the past that I was willing to put up with (Jaguar V-12 E-Type, Ferrari 308, Triumph TR8, etc) because they were worth it. But the coupe isn't in that category of car. I bought it to be a daily driver, and it has been less daily than I really need. In the end, I just keep reminding myself that it is just a relatively cheap 25,000.00 car and I don't feel as bad

FrankW

i agree that it's about how often do you have to take it to the dealer for service, but whether the tech can fix the problems or not really depends on the tech who service your car and whether your service consultant really know what you're talking about.

the second to the last time i took my car in for service, my regular service consultant was not there because he had a flu. So they had this other guy helped me. He had no clue of what he was doing. when i ask him to check the alignment for me because my front tires wear much faster on the outer edge he told me that it's because i took a lot of fast corners, which was total BS. I had to get him to get his supervisor to talk to me in order to get the service done. And the most important thing was that he didn't even put "check BAS/ESP error" on the work paper, which i had told him from the begining.

anyway, that was my story. My point is that you can't get mad because some tech or service consultant is "not up to standard"

speedfrk

My car has been driven by the MB rep and the service manager. They put a new 2nd gear syncro in on one 2 week long visit, and that did not change anything. They now claim it is "normal". That is what they told AndrewK also on his car (same problem). I have been driving manual trans cars for almost 30 yrs, and I know there is a problem with this transmission. I guess I just have to wait until it grenades before they will replace it. Oddly enough, my service advisor believes me and said he couldn't understand why they didn't just put a new trans in instead of tearing down the original one and putting a new syncro in. He said the syncro job cost them more than putting a new trans in. That's the kind of crap I just can't deal with.

FrankW

yeah, i can feel your pain. It's sort of like my dad's XJ-12. The Jag dealer was trying to fix the transmission because of some weird grinding noise. In the end they still have to put in a new transmission.

i guess what you need to do is just don't let it get over your head by constantly thinking about it. The more you think about it the worse it gets. Just drive it till the transmission gave out and have them put in a new one.

Jim Banville

Speedfrk, have you tried another dealer to see if they have another opinion on the trans problem? Do you use RBH(sp?) or Carriage House?

FrankW, whenever I refer to "our C240", I'm speaking of my wife and I.

The point is that IN MY OPINION, if the MBW is the "better sports sedan", it may well have "better" handling-braking-acceleration, but at what limits? Driving 35-65 MPH back and forth to work on straight roads with moderate traffic? And to what degree? We (my wife and I) test drove a 3 series BMW immediately before test driving the C240. We found no performance advantage to the BMW, although I admit we didn't zig-zag between the yellow dashed lines in the road at 100MPH Neither did the reckless child in me attempt to find another car to drag race at any of the intersections we stopped at. To finish the thought, in OUR opinion, the C240 is the BETTER CAR when you take into consideration the WHOLE package ("normal driving" performance, looks and comfort).

I have always been MUCH more likely to see a BMW than a MB on the roads. I've heard the same thing from other members of this board. And if I do see a MB, it is rarely a W203.