finally dyno results of Kleemann alloy pulley kit vs stock
01-01-2003, 03:38 PM
#51
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2003 C230K, 6 spd, Brilliant Silver, C-5, C-7, CD changer
Originally posted by KLEEMANN
Cory is our technical service person, as such he gets more personal feedback than I. It has been my experience that on cars we install pulleys on in our shop I see no additional gain in HP (although AFs do drop to the 12.X range).
Here is the potential problem: We have a DAS machine so we can do settings on the dyno and test immediately after the cahnge (back to back runs). An average person will dyno test one day, go get settings done another day and return for another dyno in a week. Is the temp outside the same, is the cars temp the same, fuel quality, air over the IC, etc. There is easily 7hp worth of ambient change that can mislead one to think the settings are the cause. Conversely these same issues can lead to drops in power as well.
Cory is our technical service person, as such he gets more personal feedback than I. It has been my experience that on cars we install pulleys on in our shop I see no additional gain in HP (although AFs do drop to the 12.X range).
Here is the potential problem: We have a DAS machine so we can do settings on the dyno and test immediately after the cahnge (back to back runs). An average person will dyno test one day, go get settings done another day and return for another dyno in a week. Is the temp outside the same, is the cars temp the same, fuel quality, air over the IC, etc. There is easily 7hp worth of ambient change that can mislead one to think the settings are the cause. Conversely these same issues can lead to drops in power as well.
Most chassis dyno testing is inherently less accurate than an engine dyno as evidenced by your comments and this magazine test...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/fe.../0302scc_neon/
"It also puts 223 hp and 250 lb-ft of torque to its front wheels,"
where they test the SRT-4 and get 8hp and 5 lb-ft torque more at the wheels than we do at Chrysler in a million dollar+ dyno cell... Doh!
I am one of the dyno techs who performed some of the many hours (200+ hrs per cal) of dyno testing to calibrate this engine so I think I know this to be a fact.
In these dyno cells we control all atmospheric conditions:
1) Inlet air pressure (barometer)
2) Inlet air temperature
3) Inlet air humidity
And the calibration of these cells is done on a constant rotating basis with spot checks in between. Problems do not get far.
Most chassis dyno installations at small shops do not do this.
The variables not only affect the HP correction factor, but more importantly, the ECU should adjust fuel/spark in response to inlet air temperature (ours do, I would hope MB's are at least as sophisticated) and that has a huge effect on output.
Now ideally, engines operate within a "window" of a/f ratio's at WOT called LBT (lean best torque) and RBT (rich best torque). Power is flat between these points and falls off on either side.
The window size can vary with different engine designs (for instance an older big block chevy has a window of approx 20 lbs/hr fuel rate). That is a pretty wide window.
The center of this "window" turns out to be approx. .0800 f/a or 12.5 a/f
Just for kicks I verified this the other day while running in one of the above mentioned dyno cells. I was running WOT at .0800 f/a and adjusted the pulse width to add/remove fuel. The "window" on this particular engine (can't say which one) was approx. .0780-.0820 f/a (12.2-12.8 a/f). Power indeed fell off after these points.
Another important factor that has not been mentioned yet is cat tempuratures. They can go through the roof under lean conditions and often are the limiting factor in an engine cal. We melt them from time to time and then the backpressure goes to the moon and power goes in the sewer.
The potential pitfalls of not enough fuel are ugly.
The pitfall of too much fuel is a slight loss of optimum power.
I hope this helps to clear this issue up.
01-01-2003, 03:49 PM
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Another variable...
How accurate is the a/f ratio testing being done?
It really should be measured before the cat, if the numbers being thrown around are not accurate, and are actually richer, that would explain a lot.
Kleeman,
Have you ever measured EGT before and inside the cat on one of these?
Have you ever measured a/f before the cat?
It really should be measured before the cat, if the numbers being thrown around are not accurate, and are actually richer, that would explain a lot.
Kleeman,
Have you ever measured EGT before and inside the cat on one of these?
Have you ever measured a/f before the cat?
01-01-2003, 04:32 PM
#53
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I was with Linh when he had his car dynoed and they included a/f readings from the tailpipe. They did a before and after the same way and although not quite as accurate was still a way to check for a difference. It was my theory before that, adding more air induction would cause a leaner condition so Linh had to see for himself. This of course started the whole a/f ratio talk as well as possible solutions. This was even before I had a pulley on my car. Evosport worked with Linh to redo the dyno run and verify the lean condition. I suggested to Linh that he contact Mr. Vaeth and see if they'll sell him a high pressure fuel pressure regulator as that is what they do to solve the problem on his car and it worked. Our FPR is part of the fuel pump and is not easy to calibrate. Wetteraur provided a different fuel pump diamphram to do this but haven't heard much about their system since a year ago and I believe they pulled their product off the market. When I got my pulley, Evosport did the dyno and drilled into my exhaust system before the cat to get more accurate reading and comfirm that it was running too lean. Then Randy (Renncpe) discovered that changing the Fuel Corrective (Stage 1-3) on the ECU would compensate for the lean condition so many had their's changed like me.
Keep in mind that the car does not run lean during normal driving, only at idle and WOT as mentioned before when the ECU is open loop mode. While an excessive lean condition will make the cat run hotter (as well as the cylinder heads) it's for a brief time as you don't run the car at WOT all the time. Also during coasting the ECU may adjust the a/f ratio very lean, like 20:1 and that doesn't affect the cat that much or they wouldn't do it. So while I don't think that running 14:1 at WOT is a good thing, I don't think you will cause great damage to your car. On the other hand I chose not to take this risk on my car and have it set to Stage II. Taking the word of tuners that operate at high elevations that don't experience the lean extremes we sea level folks enjoy is up to you. For example, when Brandon says his car is in the 12.x range, is that at sea level or in the mile high city?
Keep in mind that the car does not run lean during normal driving, only at idle and WOT as mentioned before when the ECU is open loop mode. While an excessive lean condition will make the cat run hotter (as well as the cylinder heads) it's for a brief time as you don't run the car at WOT all the time. Also during coasting the ECU may adjust the a/f ratio very lean, like 20:1 and that doesn't affect the cat that much or they wouldn't do it. So while I don't think that running 14:1 at WOT is a good thing, I don't think you will cause great damage to your car. On the other hand I chose not to take this risk on my car and have it set to Stage II. Taking the word of tuners that operate at high elevations that don't experience the lean extremes we sea level folks enjoy is up to you. For example, when Brandon says his car is in the 12.x range, is that at sea level or in the mile high city?
01-01-2003, 04:43 PM
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2003 C230K, 6 spd, Brilliant Silver, C-5, C-7, CD changer
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
I was with Linh when he had his car dynoed and they included a/f readings from the tailpipe. They did a before and after the same way and although not quite as accurate was still a way to check for a difference. It was my theory before that, adding more air induction would cause a leaner condition so Linh had to see for himself. This of course started the whole a/f ratio talk as well as possible solutions. This was even before I had a pulley on my car. Evosport worked with Linh to redo the dyno run and verify the lean condition. I suggested to Linh that he contact Mr. Vaeth and see if they'll sell him a high pressure fuel pressure regulator as that is what they do to solve the problem on his car and it worked. Our FPR is part of the fuel pump and is not easy to calibrate. Wetteraur provided a different fuel pump diamphram to do this but haven't heard much about their system since a year ago and I believe they pulled their product off the market. When I got my pulley, Evosport did the dyno and drilled into my exhaust system before the cat to get more accurate reading and comfirm that it was running too lean. Then Randy (Renncpe) discovered that changing the Fuel Corrective (Stage 1-3) on the ECU would compensate for the lean condition so many had their's changed like me.
Keep in mind that the car does not run lean during normal driving, only at idle and WOT as mentioned before when the ECU is open loop mode. While an excessive lean condition will make the cat run hotter (as well as the cylinder heads) it's for a brief time as you don't run the car at WOT all the time. Also during coasting the ECU may adjust the a/f ratio very lean, like 20:1 and that doesn't affect the cat that much or they wouldn't do it. So while I don't think that running 14:1 at WOT is a good thing, I don't think you will cause great damage to your car. On the other hand I chose not to take this risk on my car and have it set to Stage II. Taking the word of tuners that operate at high elevations that don't experience the lean extremes we sea level folks enjoy is up to you. For example, when Brandon says his car is in the 12.x range, is that at sea level or in the mile high city?
I was with Linh when he had his car dynoed and they included a/f readings from the tailpipe. They did a before and after the same way and although not quite as accurate was still a way to check for a difference. It was my theory before that, adding more air induction would cause a leaner condition so Linh had to see for himself. This of course started the whole a/f ratio talk as well as possible solutions. This was even before I had a pulley on my car. Evosport worked with Linh to redo the dyno run and verify the lean condition. I suggested to Linh that he contact Mr. Vaeth and see if they'll sell him a high pressure fuel pressure regulator as that is what they do to solve the problem on his car and it worked. Our FPR is part of the fuel pump and is not easy to calibrate. Wetteraur provided a different fuel pump diamphram to do this but haven't heard much about their system since a year ago and I believe they pulled their product off the market. When I got my pulley, Evosport did the dyno and drilled into my exhaust system before the cat to get more accurate reading and comfirm that it was running too lean. Then Randy (Renncpe) discovered that changing the Fuel Corrective (Stage 1-3) on the ECU would compensate for the lean condition so many had their's changed like me.
Keep in mind that the car does not run lean during normal driving, only at idle and WOT as mentioned before when the ECU is open loop mode. While an excessive lean condition will make the cat run hotter (as well as the cylinder heads) it's for a brief time as you don't run the car at WOT all the time. Also during coasting the ECU may adjust the a/f ratio very lean, like 20:1 and that doesn't affect the cat that much or they wouldn't do it. So while I don't think that running 14:1 at WOT is a good thing, I don't think you will cause great damage to your car. On the other hand I chose not to take this risk on my car and have it set to Stage II. Taking the word of tuners that operate at high elevations that don't experience the lean extremes we sea level folks enjoy is up to you. For example, when Brandon says his car is in the 12.x range, is that at sea level or in the mile high city?
Idle should not be affected as most engines use closed loop at idle and the bypass would be open anyway.
01-01-2003, 07:59 PM
#55
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Hi all and a Happy New Year.
5-6 pages are written and I didn't have time to reply the last 2 days. Some write that I / KLEEMANN have to defend ourselves, DCXwrote I was misleading the thread starter and he was tired after writing his tekst book explanation of how in general a/f ratios works in an engine, so now the "war" could start.
MBW members who had posted just hours before DCX's post, that they now had all the answers and wanted a pulley, after DCX's post they suddenly wouldn't.
It's simply unbelievable to me, that the most simple tuning solution in the world can create so much discoussion.
DCX sounds like a guy who absolutely knows what he is talking about, but as I saw in one of the later posts he is working with Chrysler, nothing wrong with that, the theory is in basic the same
in all engines.
Lets face it, here we are not talking theory, we are precisely talking about a MB 111 engine with a compressor and a ME ECU.
I have spend the last 12 years of my life on a dyno, ONLY WITH MERCEDES-BENZ cars, nothing else, and done research in how they operate, how flexible the ECU are and how they can be tricked.
I have no idea of other car brands and will in no means play wise *** of how they work, because I don't know. I just hear from other guys doing tuning, that ECU's in most other cars a cheap crap, and giving them a lot of head ache.
I don't think we should compare a MB ECU with a Chrysler.
Lets try and make this simple and not make this into more than it is.
It's not every day we have a programmer from a car manufactor
with us and even DCX is with Chrysler, I am sure most things are
quite the same.
Here are the results I came to :
When a factory do the maping in the ECU, they have to make quite large tolerances from the sensors, like air mass, Oxygen, MAP, knock sensors ect.ect. If they didn't, the workshops would be full of cars and complaining customers because of wide tolerance in all things which sorounds us.
An engine which have a red line at 6200 rpm, the maps will continue to 7-7500 rpm.
A signal from the air flow meter which OE reach 4,44 V at WOT at red line, can be brought up to 4,85 V ( equals to approx. 0,4 bar more boost on a 111 K engine ), before it will run out of the maps.
I could continue, but lets stop here, where we more or less have what we need.
Fitting a larger crank pulley will only higher the airmass, which makes the airflow meter the only thing we have to worry about.
OE the engine will pull 4,44 V max., with the pulley it will pull 4,65 V max., 0,2 bar more boost than factory and clearly within the tolerance the ECU will accept.
Guys like DCX do a great job, and it's in my opinion very unlikely
that some small shop programmer can do much better with the limited fonds compared to the factories. So we work within the limits the factory gave us, then there will be no problems with engine durability, smog test, ect.ect.
In the ECU there is a thing called self adaption, a DAS is needed to check that. When the pulley is installed, the adaptions should be resetted to it's zero.
There is no problem in installing without reset, it will just take a little longer to adapt.
To start with, it can be a little on the lean side in the high revs., this is only because operating over 4,44 V is new to the ECU, so it
have to adapt and build up a new program, this can take some time, and nobody can exactly say how long, but what I found out
it's something arround 2-500 km.
So if a pulley is just installed, and then put on the dyno right after, it will for sure be lean.
It's difficult to measure a/f ratio after the CAT, a dyno with a brake is needed and full load has to be hold for minimum 30-40 sec.before a constant a/f ratio will be readable.
Above is difficult and takes a dyno, so instead we use the oxygen sensor before the CAT. messuring on the black wire with a simple multimeter, at idle and warm engine we will see a signal jumping up and down with 450 mv DC as a middle value.
450 mv = Lambda 1.
Bring the car on the road while it still have the OE pulley and make a full acceleration in f.exam. 3 rd. gear, as soon as the throttle is open more than 48 degrees and the signal is higher than 3,5 V at the air flow meter, the ECU will figure that an acceleration is going on and it will make open loop " FULL ENRICHMENT ", a constant value will be seen on the multimeter
at approx. 915 mv.
915 mv = Lambda 0,85 = 5,3 % Co
( I don't know what that is in the US way. )
All MB cars I have tested with CAT from 1985 untill today from
a C180 4 cyl. to a 600 V 12 have Lambda 0,85 = 5,3% Co at full load, so it should be safe to assume that more than Lambda 0,85
not is needed.
Fit the new pulley and run the same test in 3 rd gear, and I am very sure the value on the oxygen sensor will be the same as before, if not it will adapt and it will come.
DCX wrote I was misleading the thread starter, by writing he could drive with full throttle from now on and untill next Christmas.
First of all, to put the engine under the load it's put under in an engine dyno or at a chassic dyno with brake, is simply not possible in real life. 1-2 minutes at a chassic dyno with full brake
and 5000 rpm, will make the exhaust lighting red untill the rear muffler.
Anybody tried that lately on the street even under rekless driving
??????. Think not.
Seccond, The car is speed limited from MB, which means it's not possible to drive it to red line in the highest gear, and it's trying to reach topspeed which is the only situation where load can be hold long enough to even start giving a problem.
When topspeed is reached the throttle will close,even so much that there will be vacuum in the manifold, which means no load.
3 rd. The ECU will go into error and write a fault code saying something like upper full load to lean, if the engine runs leaner than factory specs., that fault code will open the bypass and boost can't be created. Exactly the same would happen if the air flow meter was bad on an OE car and gave a too low signal, then the engine would run lean as well, if the ECU can't addapt for that it will throw in a fault code as protection.
What is there to be affraid of, you all are seeing problems which are not there. What if this and what if that and one could be hit by a bus tomorrow crossing the road.
Go for it and have fun.
P.S. I thing my daim is used.
5-6 pages are written and I didn't have time to reply the last 2 days. Some write that I / KLEEMANN have to defend ourselves, DCXwrote I was misleading the thread starter and he was tired after writing his tekst book explanation of how in general a/f ratios works in an engine, so now the "war" could start.
MBW members who had posted just hours before DCX's post, that they now had all the answers and wanted a pulley, after DCX's post they suddenly wouldn't.
It's simply unbelievable to me, that the most simple tuning solution in the world can create so much discoussion.
DCX sounds like a guy who absolutely knows what he is talking about, but as I saw in one of the later posts he is working with Chrysler, nothing wrong with that, the theory is in basic the same
in all engines.
Lets face it, here we are not talking theory, we are precisely talking about a MB 111 engine with a compressor and a ME ECU.
I have spend the last 12 years of my life on a dyno, ONLY WITH MERCEDES-BENZ cars, nothing else, and done research in how they operate, how flexible the ECU are and how they can be tricked.
I have no idea of other car brands and will in no means play wise *** of how they work, because I don't know. I just hear from other guys doing tuning, that ECU's in most other cars a cheap crap, and giving them a lot of head ache.
I don't think we should compare a MB ECU with a Chrysler.
Lets try and make this simple and not make this into more than it is.
It's not every day we have a programmer from a car manufactor
with us and even DCX is with Chrysler, I am sure most things are
quite the same.
Here are the results I came to :
When a factory do the maping in the ECU, they have to make quite large tolerances from the sensors, like air mass, Oxygen, MAP, knock sensors ect.ect. If they didn't, the workshops would be full of cars and complaining customers because of wide tolerance in all things which sorounds us.
An engine which have a red line at 6200 rpm, the maps will continue to 7-7500 rpm.
A signal from the air flow meter which OE reach 4,44 V at WOT at red line, can be brought up to 4,85 V ( equals to approx. 0,4 bar more boost on a 111 K engine ), before it will run out of the maps.
I could continue, but lets stop here, where we more or less have what we need.
Fitting a larger crank pulley will only higher the airmass, which makes the airflow meter the only thing we have to worry about.
OE the engine will pull 4,44 V max., with the pulley it will pull 4,65 V max., 0,2 bar more boost than factory and clearly within the tolerance the ECU will accept.
Guys like DCX do a great job, and it's in my opinion very unlikely
that some small shop programmer can do much better with the limited fonds compared to the factories. So we work within the limits the factory gave us, then there will be no problems with engine durability, smog test, ect.ect.
In the ECU there is a thing called self adaption, a DAS is needed to check that. When the pulley is installed, the adaptions should be resetted to it's zero.
There is no problem in installing without reset, it will just take a little longer to adapt.
To start with, it can be a little on the lean side in the high revs., this is only because operating over 4,44 V is new to the ECU, so it
have to adapt and build up a new program, this can take some time, and nobody can exactly say how long, but what I found out
it's something arround 2-500 km.
So if a pulley is just installed, and then put on the dyno right after, it will for sure be lean.
It's difficult to measure a/f ratio after the CAT, a dyno with a brake is needed and full load has to be hold for minimum 30-40 sec.before a constant a/f ratio will be readable.
Above is difficult and takes a dyno, so instead we use the oxygen sensor before the CAT. messuring on the black wire with a simple multimeter, at idle and warm engine we will see a signal jumping up and down with 450 mv DC as a middle value.
450 mv = Lambda 1.
Bring the car on the road while it still have the OE pulley and make a full acceleration in f.exam. 3 rd. gear, as soon as the throttle is open more than 48 degrees and the signal is higher than 3,5 V at the air flow meter, the ECU will figure that an acceleration is going on and it will make open loop " FULL ENRICHMENT ", a constant value will be seen on the multimeter
at approx. 915 mv.
915 mv = Lambda 0,85 = 5,3 % Co
( I don't know what that is in the US way. )
All MB cars I have tested with CAT from 1985 untill today from
a C180 4 cyl. to a 600 V 12 have Lambda 0,85 = 5,3% Co at full load, so it should be safe to assume that more than Lambda 0,85
not is needed.
Fit the new pulley and run the same test in 3 rd gear, and I am very sure the value on the oxygen sensor will be the same as before, if not it will adapt and it will come.
DCX wrote I was misleading the thread starter, by writing he could drive with full throttle from now on and untill next Christmas.
First of all, to put the engine under the load it's put under in an engine dyno or at a chassic dyno with brake, is simply not possible in real life. 1-2 minutes at a chassic dyno with full brake
and 5000 rpm, will make the exhaust lighting red untill the rear muffler.
Anybody tried that lately on the street even under rekless driving
??????. Think not.
Seccond, The car is speed limited from MB, which means it's not possible to drive it to red line in the highest gear, and it's trying to reach topspeed which is the only situation where load can be hold long enough to even start giving a problem.
When topspeed is reached the throttle will close,even so much that there will be vacuum in the manifold, which means no load.
3 rd. The ECU will go into error and write a fault code saying something like upper full load to lean, if the engine runs leaner than factory specs., that fault code will open the bypass and boost can't be created. Exactly the same would happen if the air flow meter was bad on an OE car and gave a too low signal, then the engine would run lean as well, if the ECU can't addapt for that it will throw in a fault code as protection.
What is there to be affraid of, you all are seeing problems which are not there. What if this and what if that and one could be hit by a bus tomorrow crossing the road.
Go for it and have fun.
P.S. I thing my daim is used.
Last edited by Lucas; 01-01-2003 at 08:53 PM.
01-01-2003, 11:23 PM
#56
Former Vendor of MBWorld
that was a very helpful reply Lucas, my pulley is hopefully going on tomarrow or friday and since i cant get my fuel settings changed they will be at base, and i am sure with my daily amount of flooring the car nothing will happnen. my fingeres will be crossed.
01-02-2003, 02:03 AM
#57
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm not going to say I know how the MB ECU works but I can tell you that before and after dyno (before cat) showed a significant difference in a/f ratio in both a '99 SLK230 with a Kleemann pulley and my C230 C-Coupe with an ASP pulley. This problem is recognized by most of the major tuners except Kleemann on the pre-2k cars. Companies like Vaeth, Wetteraur, Opera Design have provided 4 bar fuel pressure regulators on these motors for years with their pulley kits, they must know something that Kleemann does. Also DSR has know this and solved the issue with GIAC chip. Now the issue is a little more complicated on the newer cars and the answer seems to be having the dealer reset the fuel corrective to Stage II as stated by both Randy (Renncpe) and Brandon (Kleemann). Lucas, now you are saying the ECU will adapt, yet after 1,000 miles I have seen no improvement in a/f ratio. If there's reason for confusion it's the mixed message from your company.
01-02-2003, 03:36 AM
#58
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re: Lucas
Lucas,
I was not trying to offend/attack you or anyone else, so no war, but if you look at the context of the information in this thread (i.e. a/f ratio of almost 14 to 1 and you saying a person could run max load and speed nonstop) your comment was wrong.
Until now I have not seen anyone claim that this systems mass airflow sensor had the headroom to handle things. And you seemed accept the 13.9 a/f ratio. Now you say the a/f ratio will correct itself.
Which is it?
I do not pretend to know how MB's hardware/software functions and would love to learn more. My comments are based on the data presented here and please note; this is why I brought up measurement techniques as a possible issue.
Maybe some here can benefit from a basic understanding of how an engine functions and how the cal process is approached. (So hopefully it was not a complete waste of time) .
I am no wizkid, I have worked other places and not DCX solely and have seen a fair amount. I have a widely varied background (23 yrs) which includes work on production, racing, turbo, supercharged, 2, 4, even six valve engine projects and the cal process is pretty much the same other than software/hardware differences and personal preferences of the people involved. (I'm not bragging, people have no way of knowing what they're dealing with out here in the etherworld so I put it out here - of course now you gotta take my word and you still have no idea that it's true :p)
I noticed some Kleeman items at the PRI show this year (may have been at the Lysholm booth- too much to see and remember there) Do you go to the Indy PRI show? It would be nice to meet you next year if you do.
Now for the important stuff...when is the kool new blower for the 1.8 gonna be done?
What? You need more time in a day cause your out here fighting a cyberwar? Watch out for those darn buses...
I was not trying to offend/attack you or anyone else, so no war, but if you look at the context of the information in this thread (i.e. a/f ratio of almost 14 to 1 and you saying a person could run max load and speed nonstop) your comment was wrong.
Until now I have not seen anyone claim that this systems mass airflow sensor had the headroom to handle things. And you seemed accept the 13.9 a/f ratio. Now you say the a/f ratio will correct itself.
Which is it?
I do not pretend to know how MB's hardware/software functions and would love to learn more. My comments are based on the data presented here and please note; this is why I brought up measurement techniques as a possible issue.
Maybe some here can benefit from a basic understanding of how an engine functions and how the cal process is approached. (So hopefully it was not a complete waste of time) .
I am no wizkid, I have worked other places and not DCX solely and have seen a fair amount. I have a widely varied background (23 yrs) which includes work on production, racing, turbo, supercharged, 2, 4, even six valve engine projects and the cal process is pretty much the same other than software/hardware differences and personal preferences of the people involved. (I'm not bragging, people have no way of knowing what they're dealing with out here in the etherworld so I put it out here - of course now you gotta take my word and you still have no idea that it's true :p)
I noticed some Kleeman items at the PRI show this year (may have been at the Lysholm booth- too much to see and remember there) Do you go to the Indy PRI show? It would be nice to meet you next year if you do.
Now for the important stuff...when is the kool new blower for the 1.8 gonna be done?
What? You need more time in a day cause your out here fighting a cyberwar? Watch out for those darn buses...
01-02-2003, 08:31 AM
#59
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BlackC230coupe:
You don't have to hold your fingers crossed, nothing will happen.
The only country I have heard of changing to stage II is the US.
The ammount of pulley kits running in the US, are simply nothing compared to the rest of the world, my guess will be that 99,9% of all cars with pulley kit runs with stage 1, and have done it the last 4-5 years.
Buellwinkle:
You mention " all major tuners ", I have tried before to explain you and this forum who these guys are. I know most of them in person and have for the last 10-15 years, " MAJOR " is a very big word for these companies.
A homepage can trick you to belive these companies are huge and engine R/D is what the do for a living, call them on the phone
and they will tell you BS of how they work for MB / AMG and when ever they have problems they will call them for advise.
Väeth, is a man and wife operation, Mr. Väeth him self can't find his *** with both hands and will seek help from anybody outside his company to explain him what to do.
It's a engine overhaul company which have specialized in restoring old MB engines and sell them to workshops as short blocks. His business is dieing, because all new MB engines are alloy and not possible to bore and restore.
If Väeth are selling a pulley kit, somebody else developed it for him, or he purchased it from a compeditor and copied it.
Opera, is Mr. Hamann the well known BMW tuner, he did well with BMW, but he is now trying to do MB, Ferrari, Porsche, MINI.
All in Europe forecast that he is killing his company, before he was good at one thing, now he does 5 things 20% each.
Opera do not offer any engine tuning to MB they develop them self. If they sell a pulley kit, it's developed by the same who did it for Väeth or copied from the same.
I could continue, a pulley is not difficult to copy, just look at your self, you used KLEEMANN's R and D and had the ASP made, if KLEEMANN had a 4 bar fuel regulator in the kit, you could just write down the number and order it from BOSCH.
A 4 bar regulator on the older models will just trick the ECU, you could rise up to 5 bar and still the ECU could addapt at idle and part loads, over 5 bar it will make addaption fault at idle and part load, it's the same as changing to stage II, you add a percentage over the whole RPM range, by the way the older models can be changed into stage II as well.
My studies show that it will maximum lean out to 4,7 % Co from 5,3 = Lambda 0,87-88 from 0,85, which wont cause any problems with durability, this is messured in an RPM range where the car never will drive in highest gear under full load because of the speed limiter. If it was to lean for the ECU, it would anyway throw in a fault code which it doesen't, this means it's running within factory tolerances, thats good enough for me.
I will rest my case, but try and take a round trip in Germany and then tell the board afterwards who are major players and who isn't.
DCX:
I didn't felt attacked and I was not wrong because driving in real life he would hit the speed limiter, the throttle would close and he would be running with open bypass and closed throttle with vacuum in the inlet manifold, I hope we can agree that there is no risk with that.
The a/f ratio at 13,9, was at 5500 rpm and it was getting richer arround 6000 rpm, that tells me the ECU is trying to addapt.
If the air flow meter hits it's limits, it will throw in a fault code saying "air mass unplausible", any revs over this max voltage from the air flow meter will be with ZERO fuel, it will simply give no fuel.
I am sure a lot was benefitting from you post, I did, but lets keep both feet on the ground here, it's not lab. work or prepairing the car for Le Mans, it's a simple 15-20 % power increase.
I take your word as you have to take mine, I guess we both can hear that we not are working at Mc. Donals.
You have to check with KLEEMANN USA, where they will exhibit, I have no knowlegde of this, but it could be fun to meet anyway.
I haven't heard that KLEEMANN will change compressor on the new 1,8, I doubt it, nobody will spend that money on a small car, just see how the pulley is just copied, to save a little money and even have to wait for 5 weeks to have it. I don't see ASP out here backing up his product, it took a few hours to make a copy, so of cause they can sell a little cheaper.
I think that the tuners really doing the R and D, will back out from these products, they make all the investments and then others just copies and sell a little under priced, thats bad business and investment.
The cyberwar has to stop very soon, holidays are over and I start work on Monday and leaving for the Tokyo Auto Saloon on the 8 th. of January 2003
You don't have to hold your fingers crossed, nothing will happen.
The only country I have heard of changing to stage II is the US.
The ammount of pulley kits running in the US, are simply nothing compared to the rest of the world, my guess will be that 99,9% of all cars with pulley kit runs with stage 1, and have done it the last 4-5 years.
Buellwinkle:
You mention " all major tuners ", I have tried before to explain you and this forum who these guys are. I know most of them in person and have for the last 10-15 years, " MAJOR " is a very big word for these companies.
A homepage can trick you to belive these companies are huge and engine R/D is what the do for a living, call them on the phone
and they will tell you BS of how they work for MB / AMG and when ever they have problems they will call them for advise.
Väeth, is a man and wife operation, Mr. Väeth him self can't find his *** with both hands and will seek help from anybody outside his company to explain him what to do.
It's a engine overhaul company which have specialized in restoring old MB engines and sell them to workshops as short blocks. His business is dieing, because all new MB engines are alloy and not possible to bore and restore.
If Väeth are selling a pulley kit, somebody else developed it for him, or he purchased it from a compeditor and copied it.
Opera, is Mr. Hamann the well known BMW tuner, he did well with BMW, but he is now trying to do MB, Ferrari, Porsche, MINI.
All in Europe forecast that he is killing his company, before he was good at one thing, now he does 5 things 20% each.
Opera do not offer any engine tuning to MB they develop them self. If they sell a pulley kit, it's developed by the same who did it for Väeth or copied from the same.
I could continue, a pulley is not difficult to copy, just look at your self, you used KLEEMANN's R and D and had the ASP made, if KLEEMANN had a 4 bar fuel regulator in the kit, you could just write down the number and order it from BOSCH.
A 4 bar regulator on the older models will just trick the ECU, you could rise up to 5 bar and still the ECU could addapt at idle and part loads, over 5 bar it will make addaption fault at idle and part load, it's the same as changing to stage II, you add a percentage over the whole RPM range, by the way the older models can be changed into stage II as well.
My studies show that it will maximum lean out to 4,7 % Co from 5,3 = Lambda 0,87-88 from 0,85, which wont cause any problems with durability, this is messured in an RPM range where the car never will drive in highest gear under full load because of the speed limiter. If it was to lean for the ECU, it would anyway throw in a fault code which it doesen't, this means it's running within factory tolerances, thats good enough for me.
I will rest my case, but try and take a round trip in Germany and then tell the board afterwards who are major players and who isn't.
DCX:
I didn't felt attacked and I was not wrong because driving in real life he would hit the speed limiter, the throttle would close and he would be running with open bypass and closed throttle with vacuum in the inlet manifold, I hope we can agree that there is no risk with that.
The a/f ratio at 13,9, was at 5500 rpm and it was getting richer arround 6000 rpm, that tells me the ECU is trying to addapt.
If the air flow meter hits it's limits, it will throw in a fault code saying "air mass unplausible", any revs over this max voltage from the air flow meter will be with ZERO fuel, it will simply give no fuel.
I am sure a lot was benefitting from you post, I did, but lets keep both feet on the ground here, it's not lab. work or prepairing the car for Le Mans, it's a simple 15-20 % power increase.
I take your word as you have to take mine, I guess we both can hear that we not are working at Mc. Donals.
You have to check with KLEEMANN USA, where they will exhibit, I have no knowlegde of this, but it could be fun to meet anyway.
I haven't heard that KLEEMANN will change compressor on the new 1,8, I doubt it, nobody will spend that money on a small car, just see how the pulley is just copied, to save a little money and even have to wait for 5 weeks to have it. I don't see ASP out here backing up his product, it took a few hours to make a copy, so of cause they can sell a little cheaper.
I think that the tuners really doing the R and D, will back out from these products, they make all the investments and then others just copies and sell a little under priced, thats bad business and investment.
The cyberwar has to stop very soon, holidays are over and I start work on Monday and leaving for the Tokyo Auto Saloon on the 8 th. of January 2003
01-02-2003, 09:09 AM
#60
Member
Lucas, can you also comment on the lack of the harmonic dampener on the Kleeeman boost kit. Right now this is the only reason I’m still reluctant to order it. Renntech, Vaeth and other tuners have the harmonic dampener on the pulley. I thought it might be useful for the board members to get the official version like you gave for the A/F ratio. Thanks.
01-02-2003, 01:58 PM
#62
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally posted by Lucas
Buellwinkle:
I could continue, a pulley is not difficult to copy, just look at your self, you used KLEEMANN's R and D and had the ASP made, if KLEEMANN had a 4 bar fuel regulator in the kit, you could just write down the number and order it from BOSCH.
Buellwinkle:
I could continue, a pulley is not difficult to copy, just look at your self, you used KLEEMANN's R and D and had the ASP made, if KLEEMANN had a 4 bar fuel regulator in the kit, you could just write down the number and order it from BOSCH.
Sorry, I can't agree with you that ASP copied any aspect of your pulley. I sent ASP a factory pulley I purchased from my local dealer and asked them to make it to a certain diameter based on cardboard templates I made and we had to make final adjustments once because of belt rubbing. This pulley was available for sale about a month before your kit was available so maybe you copied it and while that may sound silly from your point of view, ASP copying your pulley is just as silly from ASP's point of view. I tried to buy your pulley first, but after many "it will be ready in 2 weeks" I didn't want to wait anymore and Brandon refused to give the forum a group buy deal, even with 25 interested parties.
Besides, while you may know MB's way more than ASP, I feel that ASP know's way more about pulleys and Eaton S/C that you give them credit for, they are considered a tuner in non Euro car circles. Afterall, has your company ever truly made a pulley or do you outsource it to a machine shop?
01-02-2003, 03:13 PM
#64
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally posted by tberry
wow...on this forum "Buellwinkle" "pulley" "ASP" and "kleemann" are synonymous PLEASE let it go guys...
wow...on this forum "Buellwinkle" "pulley" "ASP" and "kleemann" are synonymous
PLEASE let it go guys...
Last edited by Buellwinkle; 01-02-2003 at 04:23 PM.
01-02-2003, 03:58 PM
#65
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Now you are pushing it guys, I said I WOULD REST MY CASE, but what the heck it's still holiday.
I see it like this :
A tuner which doesn't have what another one have, is bound to say what the other one have doesen't work.
What sould f.examb. Lorinser say when a potential customer say,
" why do you only have 380 HP on a 55 when KLEEMANN have 562 HP ", I really don't know ???? what should they say ????.
The only thing they can say, is KLEEMANN lie about the HP, or KLEEMANN blow up engines ect.ect.
I thing most of us here knows that isn't true, a why should Renntech say a compeditors pulley is better than or even close to the one they have, it would be the same as loosing face and shoot them self in the foot. It's better to try and make a poor guy who doesen't know better affraid, paint hell on the wall and tell the compeditors product will risk blow up his engine.
I have read some of these threads with the discoussions of the harmonic damper, in my mind it was a no win discoussion and like beating a dead dog to try and join it.
Lots of text book explanations, but has anybody in real life tried whats happening or have years of experience with the durability
of the 111 K engine with a solid alloy pulley ????.
I am far from a professor, if I have an idea I test it, if it doesen't
work it's bad luck and if I blow up an engine I will blow up an engine, but at least I tried.
I worked some time ago on some projects, where we should try and find the limits of the KLEEMANN V8 compressor system, the MB engine and the ECU, what was possible, how much power could we get.
To over drive the compressor and spin it faster than hell, we made solid and larger crank alloy pulleys, because we couldn't have smaller on the compressor.
Test driving with a E55, the power and torque was amasing, but a strange noise came over 5000 rpm.
My best guess would be the noise came from the crank or from the pulley haveing the function as a bell.
Take the same pulley and fit it on a 500, the noise would come just before red line. Fit the pulley on a 430 and there was no noise at all.
My best guess will be that the longer stroke the crank have, the weaker it will ofcause be.
In the pulley used at the 5,5 and 5,0 engine, the Woodroff key in the pulley grew 50% in size in less than 500 miles.
The 4,3 is still running fine, and all the 6 cyl. engines runs fine.
Later we did a pulley where we scrinked a larger steel ring over the OE pulley, this pulley was later used in the KLEEMANN world record E55, the car blasted away on the track with 338 km/h with no problem at all. After the record TV and magazines wanted driving photos of the car on the track, it drove less than 1 lap after the record was in house, then the rubber melted away and the harmonic damper disapered, the pulley came into 2 pcs.
I have seen on S 500 OE not modified cars, that the Woodroff key
also have grown 50% in size, this means that even on a standard
car with harmonic damper, there is a potential problem.
The solid pulley has been used in the boost kit for the 111 K since 1997 by KLEEMANN, almost 6 years, and I am still waiting for the first call of a claim.
If it was my car, I would any day install a solid pulley on my own car if it was a 4 cyl., 6 cyl. or a 4,3 V8, but never the 5,0 and 5,5 with compressors.
But what the hell do I know, make up you own mind, now I will rest my case.
I see it like this :
A tuner which doesn't have what another one have, is bound to say what the other one have doesen't work.
What sould f.examb. Lorinser say when a potential customer say,
" why do you only have 380 HP on a 55 when KLEEMANN have 562 HP ", I really don't know ???? what should they say ????.
The only thing they can say, is KLEEMANN lie about the HP, or KLEEMANN blow up engines ect.ect.
I thing most of us here knows that isn't true, a why should Renntech say a compeditors pulley is better than or even close to the one they have, it would be the same as loosing face and shoot them self in the foot. It's better to try and make a poor guy who doesen't know better affraid, paint hell on the wall and tell the compeditors product will risk blow up his engine.
I have read some of these threads with the discoussions of the harmonic damper, in my mind it was a no win discoussion and like beating a dead dog to try and join it.
Lots of text book explanations, but has anybody in real life tried whats happening or have years of experience with the durability
of the 111 K engine with a solid alloy pulley ????.
I am far from a professor, if I have an idea I test it, if it doesen't
work it's bad luck and if I blow up an engine I will blow up an engine, but at least I tried.
I worked some time ago on some projects, where we should try and find the limits of the KLEEMANN V8 compressor system, the MB engine and the ECU, what was possible, how much power could we get.
To over drive the compressor and spin it faster than hell, we made solid and larger crank alloy pulleys, because we couldn't have smaller on the compressor.
Test driving with a E55, the power and torque was amasing, but a strange noise came over 5000 rpm.
My best guess would be the noise came from the crank or from the pulley haveing the function as a bell.
Take the same pulley and fit it on a 500, the noise would come just before red line. Fit the pulley on a 430 and there was no noise at all.
My best guess will be that the longer stroke the crank have, the weaker it will ofcause be.
In the pulley used at the 5,5 and 5,0 engine, the Woodroff key in the pulley grew 50% in size in less than 500 miles.
The 4,3 is still running fine, and all the 6 cyl. engines runs fine.
Later we did a pulley where we scrinked a larger steel ring over the OE pulley, this pulley was later used in the KLEEMANN world record E55, the car blasted away on the track with 338 km/h with no problem at all. After the record TV and magazines wanted driving photos of the car on the track, it drove less than 1 lap after the record was in house, then the rubber melted away and the harmonic damper disapered, the pulley came into 2 pcs.
I have seen on S 500 OE not modified cars, that the Woodroff key
also have grown 50% in size, this means that even on a standard
car with harmonic damper, there is a potential problem.
The solid pulley has been used in the boost kit for the 111 K since 1997 by KLEEMANN, almost 6 years, and I am still waiting for the first call of a claim.
If it was my car, I would any day install a solid pulley on my own car if it was a 4 cyl., 6 cyl. or a 4,3 V8, but never the 5,0 and 5,5 with compressors.
But what the hell do I know, make up you own mind, now I will rest my case.
01-02-2003, 04:21 PM
#66
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Buellwinkle :
I saw your reply after I posted my last.
I said I would rest my case, but I remember you suggesting to other board members, that you all should put money in the pot
and buy a pulley and there after copy it.
What you did in real life, I couldn't care less.
I think persons like Brandon and my self really enjoy what we are doing and how many people can really say they have the dream job of their life ???.
I can promise you I am a part of these forums, just for the burning interest in tuning and modifying MB cars.
You or anybody can copy each KLEEMANN product ever made, it will always be a copy, there will always be people who wants a cheap copy, and then there is the people who wants the real thing with support and knowhow behind it.
I am not accusing you, because I really don't care, and If you didn't copy it, somebody else would like Väeth, Opera ect.ect.
I saw your reply after I posted my last.
I said I would rest my case, but I remember you suggesting to other board members, that you all should put money in the pot
and buy a pulley and there after copy it.
What you did in real life, I couldn't care less.
I think persons like Brandon and my self really enjoy what we are doing and how many people can really say they have the dream job of their life ???.
I can promise you I am a part of these forums, just for the burning interest in tuning and modifying MB cars.
You or anybody can copy each KLEEMANN product ever made, it will always be a copy, there will always be people who wants a cheap copy, and then there is the people who wants the real thing with support and knowhow behind it.
I am not accusing you, because I really don't care, and If you didn't copy it, somebody else would like Väeth, Opera ect.ect.
01-02-2003, 04:49 PM
#67
MBWorld Fanatic!
Arghhh!!!!
1) It was NOT me who suggested chipping in to buy a Kleemann pulley to copy, it was someone else (do a search on the forum and prove it). I didn't need to do that, Mercedes had a perfect design to copy, look at an ASP pulley, it's an exact copy of the factory pulley except for diameter.
2) Your alloy pulley was last to market, I don't know of any other pulleys that came out after yours, so who's copying who? Renntech, Vaeth, Opera, Wetteraur, Brabus, ASP had a complete pulley before you. Did these people sneak into your shop in the middle of the night and steal your design? They certainly could not have bought it to copy, even if they all wanted too.
3) Your prior design from 1997 was certainly not copied as it's a completely different pulley to begin with and it uses a steel hub with an alloy outer shell that is bolted on, doesn't resemble a modern day pulley like the ASP or your most recent one. In some ways I like that old design as it seemed stronger.
1) It was NOT me who suggested chipping in to buy a Kleemann pulley to copy, it was someone else (do a search on the forum and prove it). I didn't need to do that, Mercedes had a perfect design to copy, look at an ASP pulley, it's an exact copy of the factory pulley except for diameter.
2) Your alloy pulley was last to market, I don't know of any other pulleys that came out after yours, so who's copying who? Renntech, Vaeth, Opera, Wetteraur, Brabus, ASP had a complete pulley before you. Did these people sneak into your shop in the middle of the night and steal your design? They certainly could not have bought it to copy, even if they all wanted too.
3) Your prior design from 1997 was certainly not copied as it's a completely different pulley to begin with and it uses a steel hub with an alloy outer shell that is bolted on, doesn't resemble a modern day pulley like the ASP or your most recent one. In some ways I like that old design as it seemed stronger.
01-02-2003, 05:05 PM
#68
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C230 coupe 6sp
"I am far from a professor, if I have an idea I test it, if it doesen't
work it's bad luck and if I blow up an engine I will blow up an engine, but at least I tried. "
Unfortunately, most of us do not have the luxury of blowing up engines to test an idea. That is why some decide to err on the side of caution. It is good to know, however, that you have never seen a single failure due to your pulleys. But, unless I'm missing something, you only just released the alloy pulley a few months ago. What solid pulley are you talking about?
work it's bad luck and if I blow up an engine I will blow up an engine, but at least I tried. "
Unfortunately, most of us do not have the luxury of blowing up engines to test an idea. That is why some decide to err on the side of caution. It is good to know, however, that you have never seen a single failure due to your pulleys. But, unless I'm missing something, you only just released the alloy pulley a few months ago. What solid pulley are you talking about?
01-02-2003, 05:16 PM
#69
MBWorld Fanatic!
Speedfrk, they made a solid 2 piece pulley for the older SLK230 and C230K sedans. It had a steel hub that attached to the crank shaft and then an alloy ring with the 2 belt planes that bolted on to the hub. Interesting design, outside the box thinking but obviously not something they continued on to the newer C230 Coupe and SLK engines. I know because I assisted Linh when he installed his, since then he replaced it with a custom ASP pulley because his car never ran right with that amount of boost and he had ASP make a smaller pulley as a compromise.
The closest thing I've heard of to this older Kleemann design is a company in Mexico that cuts off the pulley plane and uses the factory hub/dampner and then bolts on an alloy pulley plane in a similar fasion to Kleemann's. I don't think this pulley is available outside of Mexico.
The closest thing I've heard of to this older Kleemann design is a company in Mexico that cuts off the pulley plane and uses the factory hub/dampner and then bolts on an alloy pulley plane in a similar fasion to Kleemann's. I don't think this pulley is available outside of Mexico.
01-02-2003, 05:37 PM
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Thanks Buellwinkle, for saving my time answering speedfrk., you must be forgetting KLEEMANN had the ring style on the market as the first in Europe, so KLEEMANN was not behind anybody.
Speedfrk:
What I was trying to explain was, we do the R&D and yes sometimes it goes wrong, and we pay our self when it does, thats how it is walking on the edge.
But when a product is released, we are far on the safe side.
So what do you mean by you don't have the luxury of blowing up engines, why should you do that, thats what we make sure not is happening.
Speedfrk:
What I was trying to explain was, we do the R&D and yes sometimes it goes wrong, and we pay our self when it does, thats how it is walking on the edge.
But when a product is released, we are far on the safe side.
So what do you mean by you don't have the luxury of blowing up engines, why should you do that, thats what we make sure not is happening.
01-02-2003, 05:57 PM
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2003 C230K Sport Coupe, 1986 190E 2.3
Who cares really, how hard is it to design a pulley. You look at the factory one and adapt your changes while still maintaining balance and proper weight and roundness. They are just diferent sizes, and I would find it hard to believe anyone could make an original pulley. It is not that complex a design.
01-02-2003, 06:58 PM
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2010 C300 4matic
Originally posted by speedfrk
you only just released the alloy pulley a few months ago. What solid pulley are you talking about?
you only just released the alloy pulley a few months ago. What solid pulley are you talking about?
01-02-2003, 07:12 PM
#74
MBWorld Fanatic!
I've only seen the old style in person and it's half steel, half aluminum and it's solid in the sense that there is no damper or rubber, just metal. The newer pulley I've only seen in pictures and like the ASP pulley it's all once solid chunk of aluminum alloy except for a small steel ring/sleeve that protects that area from wear against the engine seal. I can't say which way is better as both designs, new or old, have their advantages.
01-02-2003, 07:37 PM
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Well, KLEEMANN may have been ahead of everyone else on the ring.
But as far as new style pullies go for our coupes, i think ASP was b4 KLEEMANN.
Anyways, i want to get a pulley. Im sure everyone who has manufactured them has to have some common characteristics with one another. I dont see it as copying. Whatever tho, there is some good info thanks to Buell and Lucas in this thread. Its made me decide to get a pulley.
Thanks.
But as far as new style pullies go for our coupes, i think ASP was b4 KLEEMANN.
Anyways, i want to get a pulley. Im sure everyone who has manufactured them has to have some common characteristics with one another. I dont see it as copying. Whatever tho, there is some good info thanks to Buell and Lucas in this thread. Its made me decide to get a pulley.
Thanks.
