AudiDude

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and I really like the new 230K sedan. In fact, I am considering purchasing one instead of a new A4 or S60 T5.

However, I am hoping you can help with a couple of concerns, the first of which invovles the car's handling in wet or snowy conditions.

Given the combination of rear-wheel drive and those pretty 17"ers, I have terrible visions of my wife spinning-out on some mountain pass. So, for those of you who drive in places like Seattle or the mountains:

* Overall, how does the car do? Does it stay in the garage on ski trips or do you actually get to use that ski sack?

* In rainy / snowy areas do you opt for all-season 17" tires or switch to winter tires?

* Is the cars' weight enough to help overcome the r-wheel problems, or do you have to throw a bag of sand in the trunk every winter (resaon why I sold my BMW years ago...)

* ESP - how much does it really help?

Thanks very much for sharing your insight everyone!

MarkL

Of your questions, I can only speak to the ESP operation on wet roads. IMO, it works very well. I've taken a few turns a little faster than I should and as soon as you feel the rear slipping out, the "magic hand" simply puts the car back on track. Very impressive. As you probably know, ESP is different from regular traction control in that it senses vehicle yaw and resulting deviations from steering input, etc., and applies brakes at the appropriate corner(s) to counteract the spinout. BTW, I've got 16-inchers on my C240.

WC68

Audidude,
I live in Seattle and recently ordered a 2003 C230 Sedan. It does not snow very much over here only rains alot. The car should have no problem getting around Seattle, but I would drive another car through the mountain pass probably an all wheel drive. Are you in Seattle? What dealership do you plan to buy from?

mctwin2kman

I have the C7 on the coupe. To answer your questions, the ESP does very well in the snow, sometimes better than FWD's I have driven. I am looking into some all season High-Performance Sumatomo's for when I replace my tires, they seem to be good little tires in the snow and allow you to still have excellant dry traction for $100 a tire. Not to bad I think, the reviews on Tirerack.com are all good. We do not get the snow you may get in Seattle but we did just get 22 inches in a day and a half and a day later I was driving the Benz just fine in the snow, albeit the streets were mostly plowed. The car weighs in at around 3300 pounds so the adding weight will not be needed and is not recommended as it will have an adverse affect on the ESP system. The car actually has an almost 50/50 weight split front/rear which is very good. Anyhow the ESP helped me from sliding sideways on the ice yesterday so I have nothing but good things to say about it. I also know people with A4 Quattros that say they are not the best in the snow, good but not the best for an AWD sedan. Oh and I have Pirelli P-Zeroes on my car so take that as you want, but they are not a winter tire and they seem fine for me and I drive hard.

dmatre

I can't give you any experience on snow, but last week (while the Northeast got the major snow) we got about 3/4" of ice on the roads south of town, and about 1" of sleet on the roads in town.

Most of this fell in a period of a couple of hours, while I was away from home, thus I had no choice but to be out in it.

I've got a C230Sedan with the 17" wheels.

The ride home was nothing short of amazing. Instead of "white-knuckling" my way home, I had a calm & relaxing drive (automatic tranny in WINTER mode).

The ESP is truly incredible in that (unless you do something really stupid) it does not bring you back from certain disaster - it simply keeps you from ever getting close to that point in the first place.

There were FWD cars spinning their tires trying to start on a hill (at a stoplight). I simply applied throttle, watched the ESP light blinking, and pulled slowly away from the traffic light. No slipping, no countersteering (no fun), no problem.

When I got to work the next morning, I decided to play with the ESP in the parking lot. Rolling at about 5mph, I cranked the wheel and nailed the throttle. The car rotated about 2-3degrees, and then all fun stopped, the computer took control, and the car went wherever I steered it.

With ESP, you can definately forget about your wife spinning out (won't happen unless you go ESP-OFF, or try a parking brake turn). I tried several times in the parking lot, and could never get more than a couple of degrees of drift before the computer shut down all of the fun. (by the way, ESP-OFF, the car is a hoot!)

Until I experienced it myself, I would have thought that ESP was more of a marketing gimmick than a useful feature. I can tell you now that I will never get another car without it again!

My experience was on extremely slick roads, but with minimal buildup of sleet/snow. A major concern with the 17" wheels would be in deeper snow, where the tires might "float" rather than go down to the solid road surface.


I also looked at an A4 (didn't look at the Volvo). Finally, after many years, the Benz interior is up to that of the Audi. And I have to say (IMO) that the solid feel of the Benz is superior. My brother has an S4, and it is a very nice piece, but the C230 feels like it is machined from a single block of steel, rather than being an assembly of many parts. (Of course I have to give up any thoughts of racing him!)

Any way you go, you'll be getting a great car. Good luck!

mctwin2kman

Just remember ESP will help out and prevent a lot of mishaps but it can not over come the laws of Physics, so you still need to drive somewhat sanely in adverse weather....

M-B-Michael

I concur with most all of what "dmatre" wrote.

The sedan offers "winter mode" auto trans (starts you off in 2nd gear)- Traction control (with dash warning light)- and ESP (which worked so well when I played with it, that it made me giggle).

Its not a "Jeep" with these 17 inch wheels & performance tires, but heck, for the 4 times a year that I need big traction, that is okay.

Bper

After the 18-20 inches of snow on Monday I think it handles fairly well for a rear wheel drive vehicle. I do have snow tires on all wheels which helps.

My wife and I went to the movies Monday morning in the middle of the latest snow storm and had no problems negotiating the snow covered roads. There were a few front wheel drive vehicles which had significant problems (bald tires maybe).

We navigated all back roads well. Whenever one wheel lost its grip the traction control kicked in. Some times after coming to a complete stop the car started very slowly regardless of the amount of pressure on the gas pedel.

Comming back however I did get stuck at the end of my driveway but that was due to fact that I slowed down and the low clearance made the car into a snowplow. We had 16 inches of snow at that time.

My wife was very comfortable with the way the car responded.

pokerFACE

swap your C7s out for 16" snow tires or at least a good set of all seasons. the narrower 16" tires will be able to dig into the snow much better (as opposed to wider track that goes with 17".. they will "float" over the snow).

I'm using Yokohama AVS Snow (V901) this winter, my first winter tire.. truly impressed.

I can honestly claim that my C240 on snows and winter mode is better than a FWD on allseasons (ie., my windstar)

As for sheet ice, sometimes there's really nothing you can do.

AudiDude

Thanks for all the replies - some great stories and information.

Follow-up question regarding tires, can you request all-seasons when ordering your 230?

Dmatre, I assume you have all seasons? What a story!

I'm glad to hear technology has improved since my '84 318i rolled-off the line. That pos was a death trap in winter...

Matt230K

No, you can't even request what kind of tire you want from the available choices. And none of the ones you will get are all-seasons. The best you can do is try to work out some kind of a deal with your dealer about getting them changed once it arrives. They would probably do it if they had some other use for the ones they take off.

dmatre

My car came with the Michelin Pilot Sports . . . from reading the posts in this forum and others, the worst choice from MB for ice/snow conditions. That's why I'm really impressed with the C and the ESP.

dmatre

Hey AudiDude!

Just had a chance to drive with 17" Michelin Pilot Sports in 2" of snow . . . my recommendation: forget it!!! While these things are fine on ice and in sleet, on loose snow they are absolutely horrible (ESP is of no help if the tires have no traction). Fun to drive, but horrible.

I still think that the C is a great car, but if I were driving in snow regularly, I would definitely invest in a set of winter tires.

AudiDude

Thanks for the update! I'm hoping a good all-season might help me out well enough.

Anyone know how much it costs to get tires switched every year? I'm guessing it's not cheap...

nukblazi

My input on this is that the Pilot sports are bad in snow. So bad in fact that they are considered "summer only tires" (my Bridgestone S-03s are even worse)

I got stuck out in the snow, made it home, it was freaky, but without ESP, I wouldn't have made it, I lost control in a bad fricken way twice. ESP brought me back.

Tirerack.com has good deals on steel wheels and snow tires. Shouldn't cost you more then $600 to $1000. Steelies are cheap, cheap silver wheels are close to $1000.

Someone had once said they were very happy with the Vredestein brand (sp model he thought.

New Audi A4 story;

Friend, bought one, just what she wanted. Drove it two days, in the shop for 2, drove it home, in the shop for 6 or 7, drove it 2 days, it has been in the shop for about 12 or so. So errr, an Audi, I dunno. Heard the '02 were for hell too.

She was also looking at the Volvo. Something disqualified it immediately, I forget what it was.

Hope this was helpfull

AudiDude

Are all-seasons a waste? Will I be giving up too much performace for the 90% of driving I do without heavy rain or snow by purchasing all seasons?

mayday

The 17" C7 tire's compound gets very hard below 20F, thus, no traction. If you're in the snow belt (I am) get a set of dedicated snows. I've got the 17" Michlin Alpins mounted on Borbet rims. The car is as capable of any FWD car on ice and snow and IMO handles better than a FWD car in snow. The RWD w/ESP works great.

2002 C230 six speed C7 C5 Bose 20k miles

vadim

If you like driving the car - then yes, all-seasons will be a waste. If you don't really care - than it will be a money saver for you. All season tires scream "budget-minded". They are inferior to both summer-only hi-performance tires in summer and to winter-only tires in winter.

I got a set of 16" C class sedan rims from eBay for $285+s/h and Dunlop Winter Sport M2 tires at $98 apiece from Tirerack.com (Porsche OEM, BTW) - and coudn't be happier. This winter is something special, I'm soooo glad I did what I did. These tires are absolutely superb under any conditions - be it ice, slush, compressed or fresh snow.
Still have a set of C7 with Mich Pilot Sports for spring/summer driving fun.

AudiDude

Cool beans! Budget-minded, no. Practical, yes. I like to maximize both my dollar and my driving experience.

If the stock 17" performance tires are fine in wet, above freezing conditions I'm fine with them. 16" rims for winter, sounds smart.

Thanks for the latest input, good advice.

SLK2C230K

Dood...

I live in the interior of British Columbia here in Canuck land and have Evolution (C7) with the pilot sports. For winter tires, I purchased 16" FRD 5 (wanted something that looked close to the AMG wheel) and used Hankook W400 4Groove tires. We didn't get tons of snow here this winter, but I have to say that I was very impressed with ESP and the tire combination. Uphill starts and Ice were no problem. The only thing that the compound didn't like was the DE-ICING (Calcium whatever) compound the our municipality uses... slicker 'n snot!

I have been driving front wheel drive vehicles for years (my Wife has a 2002 Jetta TDI), and while I was little bit nervous going back to RWD, all that went bye-bye when I drove the '02 C230K using ESP and the above mentioned package!

Just for kicks, price out plain old MB steel wheels... My dealer wanted to boost me for $660.00cdn for a set plus MB Hubcaps, tires and taxes. I told him to bite me and purchased the package I mentioned for $1400.00CDN with taxes! $70.00 more than I would have paid for the MB wheels (plus, plus, plus), but with much more style!

I would like to find some MB Star inserts for the wheel centers, but hey... I'm happy with my purchase.

BTW... I found a parking lot that had not been plowed, and had a packed surface with fresh snow on top. I deliberately tried to slide the car around, but ESP thwarted my efforts... short of exceeding the laws of physics, THE SYSTEM WORKS WELL! Disabling ESP is fun, but the car drives just like you'd expect a RWD car to.

I have total confidence!

Jerry MB230K

My back wheels got stuck in snow. I couldn't even rock my car ( drive/reverse ).
I sat for 15 minutes and then 2 guys pushed for 5 minutes and got my car rolling.
I lost confidence in my car in the snow. Standard tires.

Bper

Your last two word sentence explains why you may have had the problem. Snow tires are a must.

aborwick

I have a 2002 C320 with Michelin MXV4 Plus tires. Great on dry pavement, good on wet pavement, useless in any snow. I could not get up a rather steep hill this morning with less than one inch of snow on the street--even with ESP and ASR. (ESP may prevent you from losing control in certain circumstances, but IMO and experience, ESP can't apply traction if your tires aren't supplying traction. I had to wait until a snow plow/sand truck came along. Snow tires are a must in winter weather.

Matt230K

This is true, which is why you need to turn it off and get some wheelspin. Wheelspin is better than no wheel movement at all. It will still be hard to get going if it is slippery enough, but you might have a chance if you spin the wheels.

Sindel

I leave in Seattle, where it hardly snows but rains a lot. I haven't had any trouble at all with the rain, however last year around March it snowed and the car was incredibly bad. I guess it's because of the rear wheel drive and normal tires.

My old Jetta used to perform much better in snow with normal tires though.