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MBWorld Fanatic!
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2006 C350 Sport 6MT
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Hello everyone,
Quick question for the pros here.
Is boost from a supercharger the same as boost from a turbo.
Will half a bar (.5) of boost from a supercharger = the same power as half a bar of boost from a turbo?
Also is half a bar of boost more destructive coming from a turbo rather than a supercharger?
I got some great info and we might make history here. A lot of people have contacted me about the turbo dream and a lot of people are nagging me about the turbo idea and I think i'm going to finally pull the trigger. Kleemann's supercharger for the M272 uses .5 bar which is 7.2519psi. They claim this is because it's better for the engine and longer life. Is half a bar coming from a turbo going to be more stress on the engine rather than from a supercharger?
Thanks
Quick question for the pros here.
Is boost from a supercharger the same as boost from a turbo.
Will half a bar (.5) of boost from a supercharger = the same power as half a bar of boost from a turbo?
Also is half a bar of boost more destructive coming from a turbo rather than a supercharger?
I got some great info and we might make history here. A lot of people have contacted me about the turbo dream and a lot of people are nagging me about the turbo idea and I think i'm going to finally pull the trigger. Kleemann's supercharger for the M272 uses .5 bar which is 7.2519psi. They claim this is because it's better for the engine and longer life. Is half a bar coming from a turbo going to be more stress on the engine rather than from a supercharger?
Thanks
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
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2006 C350 Sport 6MT
Here is the Kleemann install on the M272 if anyone was wondering
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...pressor_V3.pdf
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...pressor_V3.pdf
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
MBWorld Fanatic!
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Posts: 5,034
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From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
GO by the power that your putting on the motor in terms of hp. Kleeman feels 113hp over stock is safe.
So just go off of that and not psi. 5psi on a roots sc vs 5psi on a twin screw sc vs 5psi on a turbo will all yield different power.
So just go off of that and not psi. 5psi on a roots sc vs 5psi on a twin screw sc vs 5psi on a turbo will all yield different power.
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 C320 Sport, 2010 C300 Sport
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 8
2006 C350 Sport 6MT
Thanks for all the answers guys.
Here is a blunt question on my end. I was talking to the LS1 (Camaro) guys and these rear mount turbos are a bolt on for them. Meaning they don't need to upgrade their fuel pump and injectors and no tune (recommended but not needed). Now I know that a bigger engine and a totally different at that. Would that be the case with the m272? I know for the Kleemann Kompressor on the w203 they add some kind of fuel pressure thing.
"The C W203 has an in-tank centerfugal
fuel pump. This pump is not able deliver
enough pressure for proper fuel
mixtures for full boost at high engine
speeds. The pump booster gives the
fuel pump 17VDC when boost pressure
is present."
Sounds to me I am going to run into more trouble with this? I mean the injectors isn't a big deal. But WTH is this fuel pump crap?
With 5psi which I was told is to be on the safe side from detonation will need tuning? You guys don't think the computer will adjust if the fuel is sufficient enough?
Again excuse my idiotic questions.
Here is a blunt question on my end. I was talking to the LS1 (Camaro) guys and these rear mount turbos are a bolt on for them. Meaning they don't need to upgrade their fuel pump and injectors and no tune (recommended but not needed). Now I know that a bigger engine and a totally different at that. Would that be the case with the m272? I know for the Kleemann Kompressor on the w203 they add some kind of fuel pressure thing.
"The C W203 has an in-tank centerfugal
fuel pump. This pump is not able deliver
enough pressure for proper fuel
mixtures for full boost at high engine
speeds. The pump booster gives the
fuel pump 17VDC when boost pressure
is present."
Sounds to me I am going to run into more trouble with this? I mean the injectors isn't a big deal. But WTH is this fuel pump crap?
With 5psi which I was told is to be on the safe side from detonation will need tuning? You guys don't think the computer will adjust if the fuel is sufficient enough?
Again excuse my idiotic questions.
Last edited by W203E35; May 22, 2010 at 11:16 AM.
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Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
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2006 C350 Sport 6MT
Ohh by the way for the m272 C350 I was told 360HP and 460Nm and no tune. This is why I'm confused as hell. They said the Kompressor requires no tune but they can make a custom ECU and TCU tune for me.
Price is $8,000 not including install.
Price is $8,000 not including install.
Last edited by W203E35; May 22, 2010 at 11:26 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2010
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 C320 Sport, 2010 C300 Sport
Totally a valid question.
Coming from an import background, I've always seen the need to upgrade a fuel system one way or anther after boosting for better results. I'm not too familiar w/ the injectors on the m272 and in-tank pump but this may help..
Page 3 goes into info on the injectors on the M272.
A lot of kits that are simple "safe" bolt on are low-pressure, low power kits that are created with the idea of minimal upgrading. In your case, you seem far from wanting "minimal" anything. So upgrade upgrade upgrade!
Coming from an import background, I've always seen the need to upgrade a fuel system one way or anther after boosting for better results. I'm not too familiar w/ the injectors on the m272 and in-tank pump but this may help..
Page 3 goes into info on the injectors on the M272.
A lot of kits that are simple "safe" bolt on are low-pressure, low power kits that are created with the idea of minimal upgrading. In your case, you seem far from wanting "minimal" anything. So upgrade upgrade upgrade!
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,537
Likes: 8
2006 C350 Sport 6MT
Totally a valid question.
Coming from an import background, I've always seen the need to upgrade a fuel system one way or anther after boosting for better results. I'm not too familiar w/ the injectors on the m272 and in-tank pump but this may help..
Page 3 goes into info on the injectors on the M272.
A lot of kits that are simple "safe" bolt on are low-pressure, low power kits that are created with the idea of minimal upgrading. In your case, you seem far from wanting "minimal" anything. So upgrade upgrade upgrade!
Coming from an import background, I've always seen the need to upgrade a fuel system one way or anther after boosting for better results. I'm not too familiar w/ the injectors on the m272 and in-tank pump but this may help..
Page 3 goes into info on the injectors on the M272.
A lot of kits that are simple "safe" bolt on are low-pressure, low power kits that are created with the idea of minimal upgrading. In your case, you seem far from wanting "minimal" anything. So upgrade upgrade upgrade!
Thanks Mike, I'll read this right now and see what else I can put together.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,537
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2006 C350 Sport 6MT
We made a lot of progress today.
We learned the Kleemann Kompressor is overly priced.
We also learned that they change the injectors and also add a device on the fuel pump that gives 17VDC so it can keep the fuel rate going at high boost.
Now this isn't confirmed but I was told that the Kleemann Kompressor doesn't need an ECU tune which made me question the Camaro guys and they confirmed they don't need a tune as well. We need to confirm this from the more professional members if it sounds legit.
Now if all this is true then we learned that we can boost 4-5psi without any problems.
We also learned the same system (kleemann uses the same kompressor for the m272 and m112) gives the m112 113hp but it gives the m272 only 92hp.
If we can confirm that the Kleemann Kompressor which operates at 7psi for the m112 and m272 doesn't require a tune then we are in business because this means a tune might not be needed for a turbo setup as well.
We learned the Kleemann Kompressor is overly priced.
We also learned that they change the injectors and also add a device on the fuel pump that gives 17VDC so it can keep the fuel rate going at high boost.
Now this isn't confirmed but I was told that the Kleemann Kompressor doesn't need an ECU tune which made me question the Camaro guys and they confirmed they don't need a tune as well. We need to confirm this from the more professional members if it sounds legit.
Now if all this is true then we learned that we can boost 4-5psi without any problems.
We also learned the same system (kleemann uses the same kompressor for the m272 and m112) gives the m112 113hp but it gives the m272 only 92hp.
If we can confirm that the Kleemann Kompressor which operates at 7psi for the m112 and m272 doesn't require a tune then we are in business because this means a tune might not be needed for a turbo setup as well.
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 C320 Sport, 2010 C300 Sport
This isn't fact but from what I've seen with most kits that operate at low psi, you wouldn't "need" an ecu tune. The ecu tune was preferred for better gains though.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 6
From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
Thanks for all the answers guys.
Here is a blunt question on my end. I was talking to the LS1 (Camaro) guys and these rear mount turbos are a bolt on for them. Meaning they don't need to upgrade their fuel pump and injectors and no tune (recommended but not needed). Now I know that a bigger engine and a totally different at that. Would that be the case with the m272? I know for the Kleemann Kompressor on the w203 they add some kind of fuel pressure thing.
"The C W203 has an in-tank centerfugal
fuel pump. This pump is not able deliver
enough pressure for proper fuel
mixtures for full boost at high engine
speeds. The pump booster gives the
fuel pump 17VDC when boost pressure
is present."
Sounds to me I am going to run into more trouble with this? I mean the injectors isn't a big deal. But WTH is this fuel pump crap?
With 5psi which I was told is to be on the safe side from detonation will need tuning? You guys don't think the computer will adjust if the fuel is sufficient enough?
Again excuse my idiotic questions.
Here is a blunt question on my end. I was talking to the LS1 (Camaro) guys and these rear mount turbos are a bolt on for them. Meaning they don't need to upgrade their fuel pump and injectors and no tune (recommended but not needed). Now I know that a bigger engine and a totally different at that. Would that be the case with the m272? I know for the Kleemann Kompressor on the w203 they add some kind of fuel pressure thing.
"The C W203 has an in-tank centerfugal
fuel pump. This pump is not able deliver
enough pressure for proper fuel
mixtures for full boost at high engine
speeds. The pump booster gives the
fuel pump 17VDC when boost pressure
is present."
Sounds to me I am going to run into more trouble with this? I mean the injectors isn't a big deal. But WTH is this fuel pump crap?
With 5psi which I was told is to be on the safe side from detonation will need tuning? You guys don't think the computer will adjust if the fuel is sufficient enough?
Again excuse my idiotic questions.
You can buy your own.
http://www.kennebell.net/accessories...boostapump.htm
Either that, if you have a in tank fuel pump, you can just upgrade to a c32 fuel pump or if you have a external one, you can upgrade to a sl55 pump.
Last edited by TemjinX2; May 22, 2010 at 06:31 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 6
From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
We made a lot of progress today.
We learned the Kleemann Kompressor is overly priced.
We also learned that they change the injectors and also add a device on the fuel pump that gives 17VDC so it can keep the fuel rate going at high boost.
Now this isn't confirmed but I was told that the Kleemann Kompressor doesn't need an ECU tune which made me question the Camaro guys and they confirmed they don't need a tune as well. We need to confirm this from the more professional members if it sounds legit.
Now if all this is true then we learned that we can boost 4-5psi without any problems.
We also learned the same system (kleemann uses the same kompressor for the m272 and m112) gives the m112 113hp but it gives the m272 only 92hp.
If we can confirm that the Kleemann Kompressor which operates at 7psi for the m112 and m272 doesn't require a tune then we are in business because this means a tune might not be needed for a turbo setup as well.
We learned the Kleemann Kompressor is overly priced.
We also learned that they change the injectors and also add a device on the fuel pump that gives 17VDC so it can keep the fuel rate going at high boost.
Now this isn't confirmed but I was told that the Kleemann Kompressor doesn't need an ECU tune which made me question the Camaro guys and they confirmed they don't need a tune as well. We need to confirm this from the more professional members if it sounds legit.
Now if all this is true then we learned that we can boost 4-5psi without any problems.
We also learned the same system (kleemann uses the same kompressor for the m272 and m112) gives the m112 113hp but it gives the m272 only 92hp.
If we can confirm that the Kleemann Kompressor which operates at 7psi for the m112 and m272 doesn't require a tune then we are in business because this means a tune might not be needed for a turbo setup as well.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,054
Likes: 11
From: fort worth, tx
06 C230 SS 6spd
most aftermarket turbo kits allow you to use your stock injectors and fuel setup in the car when you're running on low boost typically 7-9 psi on hondas. I believe most stock injectors run at 90% duty cycle. To know how much hp you can get per each injector what you do is you divide the flow rate of the injector by 5. So if you have 322cc injectors you can get around 64hp per injector. so say your injectors flow at 375cc and you have 6 cylinders and you use 1 injector per cyclinder you would get 375/5 = 75hp per injector. so 75 x 6 = 450 hp to the flywheel, so you typically loose around 20-25% hp fromt the flywheel to the wheels which would mean you'd have about 330-360whp. you can run safely on the stock injectors if you're duty cycle is running about 90% on your fuel system, but once you get to 95% cycle duty or so its time to upgrade cause your putting alot of stress on the injectors. you would probably want to upgrade the fuel pump to an aftermarket intank pump or an inline pump just to make sure there's sufficient fuel going to the injectors, you dont want any detonation. I would say intank because some inline pumps are noisy if you dont get a good one. Barry Grant makes really good fuel pumps i would recommend the might sumo fuel pump if you get one. Hope that gives you a lil insight on fuel injectors and pumps
Last edited by phister; May 26, 2010 at 03:41 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 333
Likes: 2
From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
You need to run a lower A/F ratio to prevent a turbocharged motor from detonating. The stock MB ecu seems to run 13.8:1 from dynos I've seem. Turbo ECU tunes retard the timing and enrich the A/F so you can safely run more boost.
Be warned some ECU's will freak out when they see boost. Either going into limp mode or really screwing up the A/F. If the Benz ECu does not, you can prob run low boost safely. But if you want real power you will need a tune.
In general superchargers are much less efficent then turbochargers. So they will make less hp/psi.
Be warned some ECU's will freak out when they see boost. Either going into limp mode or really screwing up the A/F. If the Benz ECu does not, you can prob run low boost safely. But if you want real power you will need a tune.
In general superchargers are much less efficent then turbochargers. So they will make less hp/psi.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 459
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From: Minnesota
06 C230 6 Speed FTW
Just searching around and it's seems them turboed a 203.
http://www.turbodynamic.net/content/garage.php
Look for the pic.
http://www.turbodynamic.net/content/garage.php
Look for the pic.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,212
Likes: 8
From: Pasadena, CA
2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
Just a quick note. In the past, a guy with a M111 Coupe attempted a Kennebell boost for his fuel pump. As I recall he ran into issues because of how MB did the fuel lines. Something about return lines, or perhaps lack thereof. So in the M111, he was unable to run a Fuel Pump booster.
Guys name is RTKing I think.
Phew, had to search for quite a bit but here is what RTKing experienced.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...charger-4.html
Top of the page. I might have his number around somewhere. I bought some tailights from him a few years ago. When I went to visit him we talked a bit about the issues of overdriving the fuel pump. I just don't want to relay incorrect info. If I can get to my warehouse, I'll be able to pull up his number.
Ed
Guys name is RTKing I think.
Phew, had to search for quite a bit but here is what RTKing experienced.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...charger-4.html
Top of the page. I might have his number around somewhere. I bought some tailights from him a few years ago. When I went to visit him we talked a bit about the issues of overdriving the fuel pump. I just don't want to relay incorrect info. If I can get to my warehouse, I'll be able to pull up his number.
Ed
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 732
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 C320 Sport, 2010 C300 Sport
Let's talk him into dedicated fuel cell and new lines and pump. OR even better.. methanol injection!
YAHHHH!
So Karo. I've got a friend with a boosted NSX and meth injection (Quad, yes I'm talking bout CFO Will). It's freakishly scary. It's so mean that every time you start it, a puppy is sacrificed for the sake of it's existence...
YOU should do it too!
YAHHHH!
So Karo. I've got a friend with a boosted NSX and meth injection (Quad, yes I'm talking bout CFO Will). It's freakishly scary. It's so mean that every time you start it, a puppy is sacrificed for the sake of it's existence...
YOU should do it too!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,212
Likes: 8
From: Pasadena, CA
2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
