Oil in Harness, Cam Sensor Leak
#101
Junior Member
I wasn't making any assumptions about how expensive MB's are to own in Germany vs US/Canada , just that if u own a Benz here in the US, where cheap tax free cars that are probably more reliable than MB's, and are accustomed to paying $300-$500 for B services and nominal repairs... U can probably afford $100 and 30 minutes of DIY repair. For most people it is just pure luck to get MB to help u out, a lemon law suit is a very long process which requires ur car actually breaking down repeatedly before and usually requires hiring lawyers... For $100 worth of parts? No thanks... I bought my car from a friend and not a dealership so it's pretty much impossible to get a lemon law suit for that reason alone... Thanks for proving my original point though, it is expensive to own a MB, so I guess my assumption that MB owners should be able to afford $100 repairs holds true in Germany too! Lemon law for $100 parts is laughable at best. Best bet MAYBE is for canadians to file class action suit against MB canada... But that's probably a long shot at best
#102
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c200k
$100 here, $200 there, $1000 there... it all adds up. You can soften the blow by saying each individual repair isn't a big hit, but they all add up. The big hits are horrendous...
#103
Cam Sensor Oil Leak
Wow! I have learned alot today about these problems I didn't know about. I have a 2003 C230 Sedan that I took to the shop due to CEL. The codes came back being P0136 and P0128. I did some reading and found out about the O2 Sensor and the Thermostat for those codes. Well, I began to read this thread and it made me aware of this problem. I went outside, popped the hood and inspected the cam sensors and the ECU harness...both have oil in them.
Right now I'm stationed in Germany and I'm wondering if any of you have had experience with the repair at the dealerships here. Does anybody know if they will honor the same recalls as the US? I would think so and will eventually find out when I visit one soon.
For you people who had this problem in US...are the dealerships fixing this issue after the oil leaking has occured?
Thanks!
Right now I'm stationed in Germany and I'm wondering if any of you have had experience with the repair at the dealerships here. Does anybody know if they will honor the same recalls as the US? I would think so and will eventually find out when I visit one soon.
For you people who had this problem in US...are the dealerships fixing this issue after the oil leaking has occured?
Thanks!
#105
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c200k
Germany doesn't acknowledge such things. I know, since I had to buy my plug, designed for a problem they know about, but will not recall.
Where in Germany are you? As a whole, don't follow the myth of quality in Germany, with the biggest offenders being mechanics. They're often not using proper tools, nor are they even using quality tools for the jobs they perform due to Germany's labor laws.
Currently, MB Germany has a quality assurance campaign, which I mentioned in another thread, and the dealers are striving to get some good feedback, if only, temporarily. So you might do well like I did by going in now, but I will mention- it will not be a cheap repair. You will also see many C-classes out there on sale for this reason. Always be weary of low-mileage ones. Mine was low mileage, but only started leaking and nothing got beyond about 1 inch on the wires. Others are low mileage because they're not working due to this problem.
Anyhow, the best bet is to go NOW, while this campaign is still running. You'll get several calls after to find out how the repair was, and perhaps that influenced the fairness of my repair and the charges. We went to the big MB dealer of Dresden. The smaller one (both MB owned) quoted us more than 3x the price of the larger one.
Where in Germany are you? As a whole, don't follow the myth of quality in Germany, with the biggest offenders being mechanics. They're often not using proper tools, nor are they even using quality tools for the jobs they perform due to Germany's labor laws.
Currently, MB Germany has a quality assurance campaign, which I mentioned in another thread, and the dealers are striving to get some good feedback, if only, temporarily. So you might do well like I did by going in now, but I will mention- it will not be a cheap repair. You will also see many C-classes out there on sale for this reason. Always be weary of low-mileage ones. Mine was low mileage, but only started leaking and nothing got beyond about 1 inch on the wires. Others are low mileage because they're not working due to this problem.
Anyhow, the best bet is to go NOW, while this campaign is still running. You'll get several calls after to find out how the repair was, and perhaps that influenced the fairness of my repair and the charges. We went to the big MB dealer of Dresden. The smaller one (both MB owned) quoted us more than 3x the price of the larger one.
#107
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c200k
Yeah, give me a buzz and see. I don't know if you speak German or not, but look for the "Niederlassung" dealers in your area. Typically, they can be found by going on the web, typing your city or the nearby major city in the area and Mercedes. Then go from there. I don't know if you're willing to go to Nurnberg, but that could be an option. The other dealers and independents I know are in NRW, plz 5xxxx, so that's out of the question for you, and unfortunately, this might end up being a dealer only situation.
In my case, we had the EIS problem, and one MB dealer gave is an estimate upwards of 1700 euros. We took it in to the other MB-owned one, who got us out for 500 something and even discounted the estimate to that level.
The only other option is to remove the ECU and clean it thoroughly, as others have successfully done, and do the same with the harness. O2 sensors might simply need to be replaced, but it's cheaper than anything else.
In my case, we had the EIS problem, and one MB dealer gave is an estimate upwards of 1700 euros. We took it in to the other MB-owned one, who got us out for 500 something and even discounted the estimate to that level.
The only other option is to remove the ECU and clean it thoroughly, as others have successfully done, and do the same with the harness. O2 sensors might simply need to be replaced, but it's cheaper than anything else.
#108
Hey sknight, I called the MB dealer near me today. I don't speak German therefore it's always hard to make these kinds of calls. I kept it simple...I simply asked him if they would honor recalls on my C230 even though it's a US spec car. He didn't say yes or no but he did ask me for my VIN and told me he would call me back. The end of the day came so I called him and he said that because my VIN is from a US spec car that it would be tomorrow of Monday before I hear from him due to him having to wait on the info. I hope this goes well because the fact that he didn't say no makes me alittle more positive about all this. You mentioned Nurnberg and I'm definately willing to go there if I have to. Thanks
#109
Well, no luck getting it done at no cost to me but that is to be expected. The guy that was helping me at the benz service dept was very helpful though. I'm going to go ahead and order the parts that I need to do exactly what the author of this thread did. I started looking up the part #'s and can't seem to find the isolation wires. I may have to go ahead and just get them through the dealer unless someone reading this knows where I can get them from an online parts house that will ship to an APO address. I'm also replacing both O2 Sensors.
Also, I'm curious if anybody has any recommendations for a degreaser that I can safely use on that ECU harness to clean the oil off. I don't have access to that radio shack electronics cleaner.
THANKS!
Also, I'm curious if anybody has any recommendations for a degreaser that I can safely use on that ECU harness to clean the oil off. I don't have access to that radio shack electronics cleaner.
THANKS!
#111
Well, thanks to this thread I managed to complete this DIY on my car this past week. I bought all the parts listed on the first post of this thread as well as I bought the two O2 sensors. I haven't installed the O2 sensors yet because I'm going to drive the car for awhile in the hopes that some of that oil will finish migrating through the wires. It may or may not make a difference if I wait but I'm not in a hurry to install them anyway. It was a pretty easy DIY and really the hardest part was cleaning the ECU harness which was quite oily.
THANKS
THANKS
#112
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c200k
Well, no luck getting it done at no cost to me but that is to be expected. The guy that was helping me at the benz service dept was very helpful though. I'm going to go ahead and order the parts that I need to do exactly what the author of this thread did. I started looking up the part #'s and can't seem to find the isolation wires. I may have to go ahead and just get them through the dealer unless someone reading this knows where I can get them from an online parts house that will ship to an APO address. I'm also replacing both O2 Sensors.
Also, I'm curious if anybody has any recommendations for a degreaser that I can safely use on that ECU harness to clean the oil off. I don't have access to that radio shack electronics cleaner.
THANKS!
Also, I'm curious if anybody has any recommendations for a degreaser that I can safely use on that ECU harness to clean the oil off. I don't have access to that radio shack electronics cleaner.
THANKS!
#113
I took my car to the Benz dealer in Vegas when I returned from a year in Afghanistan. The car sat most of the year, aside from the ex starting it and driving it around the block a few times. I got home, started it, oil light was on and the check engine light was on. I filled the oil and took it to the dealer. Cam sensor leakage. Dealer replaced the seals AND the wiring harness for FREE!!! Unfortunately I had something wrong with the coolant filler tube or something which was causing the engine light and it cost me a ton, but who cares, I got something for free still! AND a new gasket on my supercharger (had to remove it for something) woo hoo!
Hahaha
Hahaha
#114
This is the story of my 2005 C230K (M271 engine). I had the common problem that these cars can have after about 50K miles, or after 4-5 years of service, where the cam sensors leak oil into the main wiring harness of the car. This thread will detail my experience which led me to a repair that saved thousands of dollars versus the repair my local Mercedes dealership proposed. My car has about 70K miles on it.
Original problem noted was check engine light, with codes P0136 and P0141. Both of these codes point towards problems with the post-cat O2 sensor. Gas mileage was also way down, about 25% less MPG than normal. After a little research on the threads (see articles http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w203...onnectors.html and https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...m-sensors.html and https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...placement.html), I was pretty sure that the problem was oil leaking into my harness from one or both cam sensors. A visual inspection revealed oil dripping from the connector at the cam sensors (just unplug the wiring at the cam sensor near front, top of engine). If you do not see oil drip out, just run finger up inside connector to see if oil is present (see pic 1 below). I also crawled under the car and did a visual inspection of the post-cat O2 sensor (the one downstream of the cat converter) by pulling the connector near the sensor and it a good amount of oil (see pic 2 below) - when this oil makes it to the sensor and trips the codes, you will have to replace it (but it is not very expensive). My pre-cat O2 sensor connector was completely clean, so no oil there yet.
Fortunately for 2003 and 2004 C230K owners, Mercedes has issued a recall campaign, and will completely fix your problem at no cost to you. Unfortunately, for some strange reason, the 2005 model (mine), even with the same part numbers and the same design problem, there is no recall (at least as of December 2010). If you spend any money fixing this, hang on to all receipts, because Mercedes will reimburse you if a formal campaign is ever issued.
Next step for me was to go purchase the parts to resolve problem:
Isolation wires (2), to prevent future leakage, $55 from Mercedes (271-150-27-33)
Cam Sensors (2), to stop the existing leakage, $76 from Mercedes (271-051-01-77)
O-ring (2), installed with cam sensor, $10 from Mercedes (010-997-23-48)
Rubber plugs (2), installed with cam sensor, $5 from Mercedes (271-051-00-32)
O2 sensor, post-cat, $125 from autohaus.az
Total cost: Approx $275
I bought the parts and got ready too do the job. On a whim, I decided to call my local dealership (Sangera Mercedes of Bakersfield) to see if they would be willing to help me, since there was a recall for the identical part. Service advisor told me there was really nothing they could do for me. Called again and asked to talk to service manager, and he told me to bring the car down and they would cover 100% of the cost. Yes!! Took the car down and they called me back and said that the cost to repair was much higher than what they can fix for free; total bill would be just over $4K, of which they were willing to cover $1,250. They claimed the oil had also leaked into the ECU (also called the ECM), and this part alone is $2K - plus they wanted to replace the full harness, which is another costly repair because of the labor involved. Kind of feel that they enticed me to come down so they could charge me a bunch of money, but that's another story. I felt that maybe the harness and connectors and ECU could be cleaned up without replacing everything, but for the dealership, it was "all or nothing". I could elect to do the full repair at nearly $3K, or I could come down and pick up the car. Absolutely no option to just replace the O2 sensor and cam sensors alone, at least without me paying for it. Their rationale is that the problem will come back if you don't replace all components affected by the leak - in truth, they just don't want to spend time on any lower cost options, like cleaning parts. They just replace parts, easy for them and at a nice profit, but at a huge premium for the poor guy who has to pay the bill!
I went to the dealership and inspected the ECU harness connector, but found only a trace amount of oil there and concluded the oil damage was probably minimal at this point. Because the car was running reasonably well, this also led me to believe that the ECU had not been impacted yet. I had the dealership put things back together, and drove the car home and started my "budget" repair. My theory is that if I can prevent further leakage, and if I can carefully clean the connectors, that I can avoid the huge cost of ECM and harness replacement. I also realize that this repair will involve periodic cleaning of the connectors, maybe once every week or two, until I see no further contamination. Keep in mind that oil does not conduct electricity, so small amounts are not instantly deadly to the electronics.
1) Installed the new cam sensors with new o-rings and rubber plugs. Very simple, just need a 8mm inverted torx socket to remove (three screws on each sensor). Third pic below shows new installed cam sensors
2) Installed the new post-cat O2 sensor. This is very easy and just involved removing sensor with a 22mm wrench, and unplugging it from the connector. This is done from underneath the car. I used car ramps on front wheels to easily access that area. You have to remove the rear panel underneath the engine held in place by 6 8mm screws. Also, I used Radio Shack electronics cleaner spray on the connector to get it as clean as possible. By the way, O2 sensors do not last foreever, so replacing it at 75K-100K miles, is probably a good measure to restore lost performance, so even with no harness oil, it might be worthwhile.
3) Cleaning of ECU connector. I sprayed electronics cleaner into the connector on the ECU and cleaned it as good as I could with some q-tips. But the major cleaning effort here was on the harness side of the connector. I would spray cleaner into the connector (the one with about a hundred little pin sockets), let it sit for a few minutes, and then use a clean cloth to wipe it off, then repeat this process. I probably did this 10 times before I was convinced that the connector was clean (evidenced by the color of the residue that was coming out of the connector after spraying it). If you have any evidence of ECU contamination (because of lots of oil pooled in connector, or other check engine codes being thrown), then I have read that some have actually removed the ECU and taken it apart and cleaned it internally. I did not have to do this. Fourth pic shows the location of the ECU, and the connectors that are on top. My front one was dry, but rear one had trace amounts of oil. There are tabs that you need to slide forward (for front one) and rearward (for rear one) to get the connectors off. Fifth Pic shows the connector on the end of the harness that had quite a bit of oil in it. Multiple sprays and wipe downs with electronics cleaner finally produced clear fluid with no more traces of oil.
4) I also found I had a leak at the transmission connector, but this problem is unrelated, and is well detailed in other threads (another common problem!). I fixed this as long as I was doing work under the car.
5) I will install the isolation wires too, but this was not immediately necessary, since it should take at least a year or two until those new cam sensors will start leaking again.
I put things back together, and cleared the codes with my scanner, then started the car. This was about three weeks ago. I have now driven several hundred miles with no check engine light, and with gas mileage significantly improved, so I conclude that the repair was a success. After about a week, I crawled under car and found very slight amount of oil at O2 sensor. I cleaned it up, and it looks like I may need to do this a few times over the next few months until I see no more oil. I have seen no new contamination at the ECU connector after these several weeks.
Another lesson learned here is that an easy periodic inspection of the cam sensor connectors can prevent most of this damage. I believe it probably took months of time for that oil to completely migrate through the harness. Another approach is to just install the isolation wires on your car, even if no leakage is apparent yet. This will completely prevent all migration and future damage, at a cost of under $60.
I really hope this helps some other folks (at least anyone inclined to DIY repairs) to potentially saves thousands in dealership repair costs. Because of the work involved, and the risk of further contamination without replacing the harness, this repair may not be for everyone. But for me, saving thousands of dollars was well the worth the 4-5 hours I have spent on this. I will try report back in another 6 months and give everyone an update on the status.
Original problem noted was check engine light, with codes P0136 and P0141. Both of these codes point towards problems with the post-cat O2 sensor. Gas mileage was also way down, about 25% less MPG than normal. After a little research on the threads (see articles http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w203...onnectors.html and https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...m-sensors.html and https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...placement.html), I was pretty sure that the problem was oil leaking into my harness from one or both cam sensors. A visual inspection revealed oil dripping from the connector at the cam sensors (just unplug the wiring at the cam sensor near front, top of engine). If you do not see oil drip out, just run finger up inside connector to see if oil is present (see pic 1 below). I also crawled under the car and did a visual inspection of the post-cat O2 sensor (the one downstream of the cat converter) by pulling the connector near the sensor and it a good amount of oil (see pic 2 below) - when this oil makes it to the sensor and trips the codes, you will have to replace it (but it is not very expensive). My pre-cat O2 sensor connector was completely clean, so no oil there yet.
Fortunately for 2003 and 2004 C230K owners, Mercedes has issued a recall campaign, and will completely fix your problem at no cost to you. Unfortunately, for some strange reason, the 2005 model (mine), even with the same part numbers and the same design problem, there is no recall (at least as of December 2010). If you spend any money fixing this, hang on to all receipts, because Mercedes will reimburse you if a formal campaign is ever issued.
Next step for me was to go purchase the parts to resolve problem:
Isolation wires (2), to prevent future leakage, $55 from Mercedes (271-150-27-33)
Cam Sensors (2), to stop the existing leakage, $76 from Mercedes (271-051-01-77)
O-ring (2), installed with cam sensor, $10 from Mercedes (010-997-23-48)
Rubber plugs (2), installed with cam sensor, $5 from Mercedes (271-051-00-32)
O2 sensor, post-cat, $125 from autohaus.az
Total cost: Approx $275
I bought the parts and got ready too do the job. On a whim, I decided to call my local dealership (Sangera Mercedes of Bakersfield) to see if they would be willing to help me, since there was a recall for the identical part. Service advisor told me there was really nothing they could do for me. Called again and asked to talk to service manager, and he told me to bring the car down and they would cover 100% of the cost. Yes!! Took the car down and they called me back and said that the cost to repair was much higher than what they can fix for free; total bill would be just over $4K, of which they were willing to cover $1,250. They claimed the oil had also leaked into the ECU (also called the ECM), and this part alone is $2K - plus they wanted to replace the full harness, which is another costly repair because of the labor involved. Kind of feel that they enticed me to come down so they could charge me a bunch of money, but that's another story. I felt that maybe the harness and connectors and ECU could be cleaned up without replacing everything, but for the dealership, it was "all or nothing". I could elect to do the full repair at nearly $3K, or I could come down and pick up the car. Absolutely no option to just replace the O2 sensor and cam sensors alone, at least without me paying for it. Their rationale is that the problem will come back if you don't replace all components affected by the leak - in truth, they just don't want to spend time on any lower cost options, like cleaning parts. They just replace parts, easy for them and at a nice profit, but at a huge premium for the poor guy who has to pay the bill!
I went to the dealership and inspected the ECU harness connector, but found only a trace amount of oil there and concluded the oil damage was probably minimal at this point. Because the car was running reasonably well, this also led me to believe that the ECU had not been impacted yet. I had the dealership put things back together, and drove the car home and started my "budget" repair. My theory is that if I can prevent further leakage, and if I can carefully clean the connectors, that I can avoid the huge cost of ECM and harness replacement. I also realize that this repair will involve periodic cleaning of the connectors, maybe once every week or two, until I see no further contamination. Keep in mind that oil does not conduct electricity, so small amounts are not instantly deadly to the electronics.
1) Installed the new cam sensors with new o-rings and rubber plugs. Very simple, just need a 8mm inverted torx socket to remove (three screws on each sensor). Third pic below shows new installed cam sensors
2) Installed the new post-cat O2 sensor. This is very easy and just involved removing sensor with a 22mm wrench, and unplugging it from the connector. This is done from underneath the car. I used car ramps on front wheels to easily access that area. You have to remove the rear panel underneath the engine held in place by 6 8mm screws. Also, I used Radio Shack electronics cleaner spray on the connector to get it as clean as possible. By the way, O2 sensors do not last foreever, so replacing it at 75K-100K miles, is probably a good measure to restore lost performance, so even with no harness oil, it might be worthwhile.
3) Cleaning of ECU connector. I sprayed electronics cleaner into the connector on the ECU and cleaned it as good as I could with some q-tips. But the major cleaning effort here was on the harness side of the connector. I would spray cleaner into the connector (the one with about a hundred little pin sockets), let it sit for a few minutes, and then use a clean cloth to wipe it off, then repeat this process. I probably did this 10 times before I was convinced that the connector was clean (evidenced by the color of the residue that was coming out of the connector after spraying it). If you have any evidence of ECU contamination (because of lots of oil pooled in connector, or other check engine codes being thrown), then I have read that some have actually removed the ECU and taken it apart and cleaned it internally. I did not have to do this. Fourth pic shows the location of the ECU, and the connectors that are on top. My front one was dry, but rear one had trace amounts of oil. There are tabs that you need to slide forward (for front one) and rearward (for rear one) to get the connectors off. Fifth Pic shows the connector on the end of the harness that had quite a bit of oil in it. Multiple sprays and wipe downs with electronics cleaner finally produced clear fluid with no more traces of oil.
4) I also found I had a leak at the transmission connector, but this problem is unrelated, and is well detailed in other threads (another common problem!). I fixed this as long as I was doing work under the car.
5) I will install the isolation wires too, but this was not immediately necessary, since it should take at least a year or two until those new cam sensors will start leaking again.
I put things back together, and cleared the codes with my scanner, then started the car. This was about three weeks ago. I have now driven several hundred miles with no check engine light, and with gas mileage significantly improved, so I conclude that the repair was a success. After about a week, I crawled under car and found very slight amount of oil at O2 sensor. I cleaned it up, and it looks like I may need to do this a few times over the next few months until I see no more oil. I have seen no new contamination at the ECU connector after these several weeks.
Another lesson learned here is that an easy periodic inspection of the cam sensor connectors can prevent most of this damage. I believe it probably took months of time for that oil to completely migrate through the harness. Another approach is to just install the isolation wires on your car, even if no leakage is apparent yet. This will completely prevent all migration and future damage, at a cost of under $60.
I really hope this helps some other folks (at least anyone inclined to DIY repairs) to potentially saves thousands in dealership repair costs. Because of the work involved, and the risk of further contamination without replacing the harness, this repair may not be for everyone. But for me, saving thousands of dollars was well the worth the 4-5 hours I have spent on this. I will try report back in another 6 months and give everyone an update on the status.
Thanks!
#116
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2005 C230 Kompressor
Just got off the phone with MBUSA and was told my C230K is included in this "open campain" on the oil in the harness issue, mine has this issue. Not to post my VIN but will say my C class was build 03/05 so that will give you some idea compared to yours. They are going to call my local dealer and speak with the SM about what they found on the car when it was there and go from there.
#117
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yep. If you have a '05 C230K and you tried to get in on the campaign but couldn't, try it again. I took mine in late last year sometime (don't remember when exactly) and they said it wasn't covered. I took it in today for my B service and the SA told me they were going to fix me up.
I had already bought and installed the isolation wires, but that's ok. I'm happy (but then I haven't seen the bill, yet!
).
I had already bought and installed the isolation wires, but that's ok. I'm happy (but then I haven't seen the bill, yet!
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
#119
MBWorld Fanatic!
#121
MBWorld Fanatic!
I don't know off hand when mine was built, but earlier, they told me it wasn't part of the campaign, but when I brought it in last Thursday, they told me it was. If you haven't checked recently, you might want to check again. It seems like they've broadened the campaign.
#122
MBWorld Fanatic!
I do have a leaky cam sensor, but I have had the isolation wires installed since 41k miles when there were no leaks. It's not truly an emergency for me, but I will check!
#124
MBWorld Fanatic!
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#125
Super Member
Actually, Daiso' in Canada like me,.... so we're not covered, eh!
I would strongly suggest buying the parts online,... it's only a couple of hundred bucks,.... but it'll save you thousands of dollars if this problem develops,.... and with our M271 engine,.... it's only a matter of time. If you don't,... then just keep an eye on it and check it often. Keep the engine clean so its easier to spot any leaking oil trail.
If you buy the parts, keep the receipts just in case if MB Canada ever decides to follow MB-USA lead.
I would strongly suggest buying the parts online,... it's only a couple of hundred bucks,.... but it'll save you thousands of dollars if this problem develops,.... and with our M271 engine,.... it's only a matter of time. If you don't,... then just keep an eye on it and check it often. Keep the engine clean so its easier to spot any leaking oil trail.
If you buy the parts, keep the receipts just in case if MB Canada ever decides to follow MB-USA lead.