Glyn, don't take this the wrong way:

If the fluid was such an integral part of the transmission why would Mercedes update their spec in 2008 (for 4yr old transmissions) ridding of previously accepted fluids? You would think if they worked so hard on matching the correct fluid, they would have got it right the first time.

And what happened to the Mercedes fluids 001 989 21 03 10, and 001 989 45 03 10, both initially specified in the "Factory Approved Service Products" yr 2006 as meeting the criteria for the c230 automatic transmissions.

 

It's not about saving a few dollars at all. More about getting over the fact that Mercedes parts (and fluids) aren't gods gift to humans, and that you don't always have to succumb to there "genuine" parts bs, to where if you don't use them, the car wont perform properly.

I'm sorry, I just have a very bad taste lately because the service and parts advisers at my local MB are complete a-holes and completely rubbed me the wrong way. They have proved to me that they know nothing other than what the 27" lcd in front of them is saying ... especially when they tried to hit me up for a $1700 a/c repair that turned out to be a blown fuse (diagnosed by me, by tracing down an electrical diagram, in German none the less, was for my 90 560sel, not the c230)

 

Time moves on. Earlier fluids (only one generation back) were the state of the art at the time for our version of the 722.6. with changed friction materials & deleted TC drain - even the then approved products listing allowed no universal fluids. Benz still had problems with oxidation & consistency of shift shock over the 60,000Km/38,000mile drain interval. The first to second gear one way clutch was still the common first failure mode on the 722.6 & showed itself fairly consistently in taxi service because of the typical duty cycle. Along came the 722.9 7 speed development program - which is in essence a mechanically simplified 722.6 with 2 extra speeds achieved by the Ravigneaux Gear Set (& 2 reverse) & greater electronic control. Concurrent with this started the next generation fluid development - 236.12 & ultimately 236.14 intended for both transmissions. 236.14 was first launched in the 722.9 & considered optional for 722.6 & ultimately mandated for both due to substantially improved shift shock maintenance & transmission life. I was involved in the new fluid development with our in-house additive company.

An ATF has to:

Lubricate - easy - viscosity, viscosity maintenance (anti ox) & antiwear.
Act as a hydraulic medium - easy - viscosity, antiwear & cleanliness maintenance (wear & filtration)
Act as a coolant - easy - viscosity & heat transfer characteristics.
Minor things like elastomer compatibility – easy with correct elastomers
Provide the correct frictional properties for selected friction materials, desired levels of shift shock & minimise wear of those friction materials over design life - this is where the major difficulty lies.

The big differences in the 236.14 fluids over previous generations are Oxidation Stability, hugely reduced oxidative thickening & thus viscosity maintenance & long term maintenance of frictional properties using the latest generation friction modifiers. Improved filterability was another bonus.

The 722.6 & 722.9 transmissions are by definition electronically controlled gearboxes rather than hydraulically controlled (such as the Chrysler Torqueflite or GM Trimatic & their derivatives et al). Hydraulics are only used for controlled actuation with the electronics (such as retarding timing at the shift point, determining shift point from the speed sensors against the learning map etc) & frictional properties of the fluid controlling the shift shock to the desired characteristics. Frankly - frictional properties of the fluid have always been the defining factor in shift shock of both hydraulic & electronic transmissions.

As I stated earlier - The Ford & GM requirements used to be poles apart in the Dexron II - Type F & G fluid days. Dexron in a Ford box would cause clutch burn out & Type G in a GM box would make it bang from gear to gear like a 16yr old's first driving lesson in an MT car. The Dexron/Mercon closing of design & specs made a universal fluid possible & Lubrizol was the first additive company to achieve this although it was a compromise. Fine for Ford & GM owners.

Prior to the 236.14 fluid - the 722.6 transmission was happiest on the 236.12 products.

By the way - Amsoil does not even hold an approval against 236.1
Heres the latest 236.1 listing.

A.T.F. ALMIROL III-F Kroon Oil B.V., EC ALMELO/THE NETHERLANDS
Addinol ATF D III Addinol Lube Oil GmbH, Leuna/Deutschland
Agip ATF Plus ENI S.p.A. - Refining & Marketing Division, ROM/ITALY
Agip Dexron III F-30727 ENI S.p.A. - Refining & Marketing Division, ROM/ITALY
Behran Automatic (ATF III) Behran Oil Company, TEHRAN - IRAN/IRAN
Caltex ATF-HDM Chevron Global Lubricants, GENT/ZWIJNAARDE/BELGIUM
Cartechnic Getriebeöl ATF III Auto-Teile-Ring GmbH, Stuttgart/Deutschland
Divinol Fluid III G Zeller+Gmelin GmbH & Co. KG, Eislingen/Deutschland
Engen ATF 22 D Engen Petroleum Ltd., JOHANNESBURG 2000/REPUBLIC of SOUTHAFRICA
G-Box ATF DX II Gazpromneft-Lubricants LTD, MOSCOW/RUSSIA
Liqui Moly Top Tec ATF 1100 Liqui Moly GmbH, Ulm/Deutschland
mabanol Radon Gear ATF D II Mabanol GmbH & Co. KG, Hamburg/Deutschland
mabanol Radon Gear ATF III Mabanol GmbH & Co. KG, Hamburg/Deutschland
megol Transmission-Fluid ATF III Meguin GmbH & Co. KG Mineraloelwerke, Saarlouis/Deutschland
Meisteröl Getriebeöl ATF III EPRO GmbH, Ulm/Deutschland
MOTOR GOLD Fluidtec ATF 43 A Mineralöl-Raffinerie Dollbergen GmbH, Uetze-Dollbergen/Deutschland
Oilfino Sponte ATF II Carl Harms Mineralöle, Prisdorf/Deutschland
Oilfino Sponte ATF III Carl Harms Mineralöle, Prisdorf/Deutschland
Panolin ATF Dexron III PANOLIN AG, MADETSWIL/Schweiz
Pazbo EZF Paz Lubricants & Chemicals Ltd., HAIFA 31000/ISRAEL
pennasol SUPER FLUID ATF 43 A Mineralöl-Raffinerie Dollbergen GmbH, Uetze-Dollbergen/Deutschland
PO ATF-II Petrol Ofisi Anonim Sirketi, ISTANBUL/TURKEY
Q8 Auto 14 Kuwait Petroleum, ROZENBURG/THE NETHERLANDS
Q8 Auto 15 G-34052 Kuwait Petroleum, ROZENBURG/THE NETHERLANDS
Ravenol Automatic-Getriebeoel Dexron F III Ravensberger Schmierstoffvertrieb GmbH, Werther/Deutschland
Repsol ATF 3 Repsol YPF Lubricantes y Especialidades, S.A., MOSTOLES - MADRID/SPAIN
SRS Wiolin ATF D SRS Schmierstoff Vertrieb GmbH, Salzbergen/Deutschland
SRS Wiolin ATF III SRS Schmierstoff Vertrieb GmbH, Salzbergen/Deutschland
TECTROL ATF 3000 BayWa AG, München/Deutschland
TITAN ATF 3000 Fuchs Petrolub AG, Mannheim/Deutschland
TITAN ATF 4000 Fuchs Petrolub AG, Mannheim/Deutschland
Tor ATF DMM F-30140 De Oliebron, ZWIJENDRECHT/THE NETHERLANDS
Total Fluide AT 42 Total Lubrifiants, PARIS la Defense Cedex/FRANCE
Triathlon Automatic Super Adolf Würth GmbH & Co. KG, Künzelsau/Deutschland

 

If we are talking about light bulb or door trim, I would agree with you. When it comes to fluids (especially the trans fluid), I would pay few extra dollars to get the MB recommended fluid... think of it as insurance/peace of mind.

I understand your frustration; I would also be angry at the dealer/SA.
Incompetency of SAs must be separated from the recommendation of MB engineers. MB engineers designed the engine with the recommendation of most appropriate fluids for that engine.

Be happy that you have the knowledge, and willingness to fix the issues by yourself - with the help from members on these forums.

 

Right, I agree, were all on the same page here.

Look at the good info that came out of this though, thanks Glyn.

Let me ask this:

Where does that approval come from? Is it directly from the auto manufacturer who actually test the various products from companies oil (and would we be in denial to think lobbying is not involved on the selection process of who gets the chance to be tested....?) , or is it a secondary source that would test and approves outside oil companies products (like Amsoil), or can any company execute and document the various test to prove their product meets a spec or not, like for example, the 229.51 engine oil or this 236.1 trans oil and then publish it on their packaging without automaker approval?

If it's the first case, I understand why Amsoil wouldn't be on their list, heck Mobil didn't even make that list, nor any USA company...But since Amsoil does specify that their fluid meets the 236.10 (on that link I showed earlier), is that against some policy or even illegal?

 

Benz have a huge test facility outside Stuttgart. All you have to do is provide the required size sample of your oil or fluid to them with all the necessary backup data & your fee. They will test the product fully and issue an approval if it passes the entire test regime. If it does not they will give you the full test results & send you back to do your homework. If you are a supermajor like I come from you might be using in-house technology. If you are a small guy like Amsoil then the sensible thing is to purchase the pre approved additive system & formulation from a major additive supplier such as Lubrizol, Oronite or Infineum etc. Once you prove to Benz that you are using an approved formulation they will give you a listing. They reserve the right to pull samples of your product off of a shelf anywhere in the world & test it for compliance. This is something they do regularly. There is no self certification. You also have to use identical nomenclature for that approved product globally.

There is no lobbying possible. Technical people can interact but you pay your money & Benz do the testing. If you fail you fail & if you pass you pass.

This program costs Benz a lot of money and the oil industry & additive industry a lot of money.

At the end of the day Benz & owners of their products win.

Small companies like Amsoil have been playing the "meets the requirements of" XYZ for years. Nowhere will you find them stating "approved against MB 236.14 or whatever.

In some countries local laws would allow Benz to pursue them for making such claims - in others not.

The reason small companies adopt this practice is that it allows them to buy a cheaper formulation from an additive peddler & fob it off on the public at greater margin.

If your vehicle is under warranty & you suffer what Benz believes to be a fluid related failure, the first thing they will do is analyse the fluid & if it does not have the signature of an approved product they will refute any claim.

 

great info, that's very interesting and satisfying in some way.

I haven't actually done the trans flush, refill and filter job yet.

I will not use my Amsoil now, so I guess i'll get the "liquid gold" after all.

While were on the subject, is the Mann filter OK? or do I need a different one?

 

Mann + Hummel filters are excellent.

 

Just paid 212$ for 14 quarts of the mercedes ATF 134... Ouch .... Is a full fill 14?

 

no it is like 8.5 or something i would check your manual. You need 14 to get a full flush though.

 

Yes - in reality it's around 7.8 litres of +- 8.5. The difference being a new dry fill versus what you can actually get out. Just go through the proper level setting regime.

 

In the past when I did tranny fluid changes, I would drain and pull the pan, put in a new filter, fill the pan up with fresh oil, disconnect the return line from the cooler and pump out old fluid, measure removed amount and put back in the same amount... Repeat a few times until the fluid is clean and looks fresh.

Final fill is to the correct level, anybody know what that should be? I have the dipstick measuring tool for the engine oil, I assume this will work for the trans dipstick?

Thanks
Rob

 

I'd hate to waste it, you mean 14 quarts because the flushing process involves mixing of old and new fluid and you go through 14 trying to get out old fluid.

 

You'll need the seperate ATF dipstick. They can be had for $20 on ebay or some have said that you can find one at Harbor Freight.

 

Notwithstanding your qualifications, perhaps you’ve come to notice there are some here who’ve considerable mechanical expertise. :y

Between ~10mm-21mm at 25°C and 54mm-65mm at 80°C ATF temperature.

 

Rabney, your knowhow amazes me! I'd like to see that you publish your theory of compressibility of liquids and how they mix rather than displace, and react with each other. Man, that's true avantgarde.

I think you hit it right on the head when you said all ATFs are equal... Nevertheless, as with everything around, some are more equal than others. It's a pity to see that so many bright chemists are throwing their lives away assessing the differences between MB ATF Spec 236.1, 236,12, 236.14, Dexrons, Mercons, etc.

I'm sorry I cannot continue, this is too sad...