Outland

Completely untrue. Even if MB was the MOST UNRELIABLE CAR on the planet, its PPM would still be so low that most of the owners would have no problems.

I'm also in the 'no problems' category. Ok, I had a cracked button this winter on my steering wheel... no biggie, it got replaced while I drove an E320 for a day. Its been the most trouble free car Ive ever owned- better by far than my Accord. I'm not saying all Accords are unreliable cars- I bought it thinking it would be problem free- and accepting its dull, appliance like styling and character to be the trade off for it- well, it turned out to be a royal POS. The parts prices would make German makers jealous.

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I would say most people have had more than 2 problems in their first year. General statistic and no numbers to back it up but i can feel it.

The ML has lead MB's quality slide, and continues to perform poorly in quality and reliability studies. I think a LOT of people take the ML to be indicative of all MB's, which its not.

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Now as for BMW's please people, but those crapy cars with the same catagory as our benzs for reliabilty. BMWs have been always famous for the mother of all electrical problems.

You must have never heard of Jaguar... Seems to me that BMW's biggest problems are its exploding motors and a hit and miss styling dept. that's deadset on ruining the brand's bread and butter cars.

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Now japaneese cars. Someone here stated that a honda had an issue and a camary had one. Thats a joke because if you take a look at their numbers u probably have a car like that 1 in every 5000 as for benz seems like 1 out of 1 lol.

In the most recent JD Power study, Honda and Toyota BOTH had dramatic drops in quality. Honda has had ongoing and well documented problems with its automatic transmissions for the Accord, CL, TL(all the same car, really) for several years now. The Honda minivan has also not lived up to the Honda quality rep. And Toyota's 'sludge' problem has become ledgendary- the threat of a massive class action lawsuit is what changed the tune coming from Toyota corp about engine replacements. My friend's Celica needed a new motor at 8K...yeah, 8000 miles- at least it wasn't sludge that did it in, he'd still be waiting for a new motor.

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So by far japaneese will last and u have a better chance with that car. Please, no one get me started on american cars. This thread will explode LOL LOL LOL LOL

Its a good thing that you didn't buy a Japanese car, and then have problems- you'd probably require therapy.

BenzC240

Nice well put togther fantasy OUTLAND lol lol lol. Keep dreaming that Benz actually has quality over japaneese cars. To discuss your friends celica only god knows what he did to it and how he was driving it. As far as the rest totatly untrue and JD powers is garbadge to me. The truth is U like the image of owning a benz and dont want to admit the issues. I know so many people i work with who tell me they have no problems with their benzs and then i see them at the dealer fixing one thing after another. Now with all fairness maybe u r one of the lucky ones. But sorry to say i will not depend on luck for my next car. I need a good track record and japaneese have it. By the way owned a maxima for 4 years. NOT one time did i even have to go in to fix anything. Im not stupid either ofcourse u will have your lemons out there but when it comes down to it im looking for a track record in reliabilty and benz's, bmws, jags do not have it. They have image and safety thats it. Some lucky people get one with no issues. Hey if u have one of those make sure you put in a musem LOL. Not attacking you Outlaw, just messing with you

peace bro

Outland

I don't see too many stories(if any) about MB motors blowing up or siezing. Consider my own experience, the worst car Ive ever owned was an Accord. It not only left me hanging, it did so repeated. Burned and leaked oil and antifreeze. Lotsa brake problems. Anyway, in my experience the so called 'reliable' cars break down anyway. Might as well drive something with style and content I want.

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To discuss your friends celica only god knows what he did to it and how he was driving it.

He's actually the most unagressive driver youve ever met. His last car, a Corrado, he drove to over 200,000 miles- no accidents, no teardowns. The Toyota started burning oil from the get go, and never let up. 6months old, and it needed a heart transplant. Since the motor replacement its been one failure after another of the accessories and other under the hood systems. I know he babied that car, the weekend he got it, we went to the Dells with some friends, and took 2 cars. I kept digging into the throttle, hopping to egg him on, nope- he wouldn't play.

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As far as the rest totatly untrue and JD powers is garbadge to me.

Funny, that's who scores Honda and TOyota on top. Perhaps you should stop lumping all the "japanese" makes together- as Mitsubishi and Nissan have abysmal quality. IIRC, Nissan was in the basement last year- even worse than VW.

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The truth is U like the image of owning a benz and dont want to admit the issues.

Nope....I bought it for the content- and I would have happily purchased this type of car with a different hood emblem... But nobody else made a small coupe with RWD, gads of safety equipment, nice interior, and that wild pano rama roof. The RSX has ricer stigma and a cheap, loud interior- and bland styling. Audi's A4 Coupe wasn't offered yet. Same with the G35. Mustang? Too old and crude. Mini? Great car...just too small.


I have no issues to admit to. I put the key in and drive it. That's it. Its quiet, rides nice, great power and handling that gets better the harder you drive it. When it comes time to replace it, i'll look for another coupe. I doubt it'll be another MB, unless they relent and start putting manuals in more of its cars. I love the CLK, but with an automatic, forget it. Its too big anyway. Perhaps if the next C-Coupe is a looker, I'll buy one.

Youre the guy who bought the 'image' car. An MB sedan, can't get more pimp than that.

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I know so many people i work with who tell me they have no problems with their benzs and then i see them at the dealer fixing one thing after another.

Here's my personal experience- my in laws have a Boxster and a Lexus ES300, both have been to the dealer many many times. My father-in-law is miffed everytime it comes up.

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Now with all fairness maybe u r one of the lucky ones. But sorry to say i will not depend on luck for my next car.

No, not luck. Statistics. Like I said, even if MB's were as bad as you think they are, most of the owners would still have no problems. If youre afraid of ever having a problem with a car, well, then you should be driving an appliance.

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Hey if u have one of those make sure you put in a musem LOL. Not attacking you Outlaw, just messing with you

peace bro

I'll continue to drive it, and enjoy it.

FrankW

no point arguing with outland...cuz he's just out there... ...who thinks his MB is the best on the entire planet. anyway, a same type of car for you/outland is the Porsche 996 Targa, but i guess that's out of your price range. the 209 CLK is only an *** longer and 12 mm wider. IT's not any larger other than having an actual trunk and rear seat space is pretty much the same. The C-coupe is wider than the 208 CLK. So, the CLK is too big?! NO. Longer? YES.

why do you think MB created the C-coupe? the answer is to attract younger buyer for it's brand "image". think about it, how many ppl out there was not able to afford a MB till the C-coupe came out. MB sells it's C-coupe to ppl who want MB's brand "image" at a affordable price.

btw, i finally found a picture for ya OUTLAND!

SKYLINE GT sedan

BenzC240

Ok outland, first u r very lucky to have a good car, your friend with the celica is very UNLLUCKY. simple as that. Now lets address all the issues that Bnez had when they had the 01 made for the C class that by 02 and 03 models have NOT fixed nor have been able to fix. There is an issue out there where the front window will fog up from the AC. Some people put acouple of part numbers and fixes for this, till now its still a hit or miss for that part to work. Second how about the ignition system not recognizing the key where my car had to get towed and they had to order a part to fix it. Then it happend to someone i know on a 03 model. Third how about the keys having to get replaced by lots of people on their 01 modle, 02 and 03. Yet no fix that will stop the keys from messing up. U completely miss the point outlaw. The point is look at all the people in this forum who have repeat after repeat issues that other people have from 01, to 02, to 03 models that benz has not been able to fix. U would think if it happend in 01 then in 02 for sure it would not happend . But geez for it to happen on 03 also, the same issues, thats no quality, thats junk. I can totatly accept all the problems that happend on 01 models being a new car and new design, but for gods sake on 02 and o3 the same issues happening over and over. Keep in mind i only mentioned a few. U should see the tech buletins full of issues they have no fixes for. All they can do is try and fix something and a hit and miss. What works for someone may not work for someone else. Take the purge valve i had an issue with and my car was an 02, should have this problem been fixed and installed on all 02 models since it also happend on 01 models, and shouldnt it be standard by 03 ??????????????? What a joke. Again, dont drive your car, ,put it in a musem man LOL it belongs there.

Outland

I don't care who or what they created it for...it fit my needs. I had certain requirements when I bought the car, and I wanted a coupe with a manual transmission. Quite frankly, if I wanted it, an E-Class is doable. I looked at the TT seriously- rear seat was too small- which I need for a child seat. That meant stuff with two seats was out- No Z, no Vette... Believe it or not, the C230 was not my first choice of car- but having OWNED it for awhile, Ive come to really enjoy it...deal with it.

As far as affordable goes, when you start buying your own car with your own money(one you don't need to ask you dad's permission on) come back and talk. Not everyone wants to sink 50K into a car, even if they can afford it. A ski condo, or cabin in the mountains for winter vacations is a higher priority for me.

Outland

I wasn't making generalizations, which is what you are doing. Ok, look at it this way, if the industry average is something like 138 repairs per hundred, then everyone should expect at least something to need attention at some point. The lowest car in the JD power study was I think like 188- so that car has almost 2 repairs per owner vs. just under 1 repair for owner on the other end of the spectrum- whoodee effen doo. My experience with my Accord is that the car was a total POS. Now, this same car gets all kinds of accolades and is widely regarded as 'bulletproof". Cleary, its not. At least mine wasn't. All I'm saying is that with every car, you take a risk of having a problem. Just wait till your next car, say a Lexus, breaks down on you. Personally, I really don't care if one car is slightly more reliable, or slightly less reliable- I'm not looking for an appliance. As long as its not an engine failure, or a total POS like my Accord was, I'm happy if I enjoy the car. The Accord I didn't even like when it was running, so its continual failures made me despise that turd even more.

Honda's transmission troubles went on for nearly 4 years, until a class action lawsuit waiting in the wings got them to change thier tune on the warranty claims. Same with the sludge problems in Toyota 4 and V6 motors. Often times it takes pressure from an outside source before companies will address the problems. Hell, Mitsubishi admited a few years ago(2000?) that it had been THROWING OUT all of its customer complaints- it flat out didn't even read them. How's that for being proactive?

How youre treated by the dealer when you have a problem makes a big difference to some people. And this is one area where brands like Lexus and Infinity have clearly done there homework. And it doesn't take stellar product to get that customer satisfaction, either. Saturn, who had its own share of problems over the years, consistently takes the number 1 spot, with Lexus in 2nd place- so its not just a trouble free car that gets attention!

FrankW

uuh...you answered the question I DIDN'T ask. oh well, so the whole thing is about your parents not getting you a car that you can appreciate...

you have no right or reason to judge me about the asian/chinese and my family's own family value when it comes to buying a car or any other thing. another thing, my dad asked me if i want to consider the C32, i didn't ask or beg him to get me one. My parents are the ones that gave me a 2 cars limit, which the next one will have to get it on my own. I have no problem driving around in a Civic or a Sentra, but i'll definitely save it up for a better car. I could be still driving the same car 9-10 years from now when you get another new car or two.

btw, did i say my car is affordable for most people? NO. I said,"MB sells it's C-coupe to ppl who want MB's brand "image" at a affordable price"

BenzC240

Just when I thought this thread was put to sleep outlaw had to bring all back up LOL LOL LOL. oK First I agree with you there is a risk when you buy any car regradless of manufacture. Obviously we are dealing with a machine here. But 2 things to remeber regadless what you say Japaneese will always have less problems than benz. They last longer and will always have far less electrical and engine problem. The main issue u failed to comment on is why in the world does benz have problems in their 01 models, their 02 models and the same freaken problems in there 03 models??????? Why hasnt benz fixed these issues all for the 02 models????? thats what im talking about. But to have the same problems duplicate over and over and benz not taking the time to fix and perfect and learn from these issues is an extreem dispointment. Lets see you answer this question with a JD POWERS statistic lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

:p :p

Outland

Perhaps as a generalization, say comparing all Benz's to all Lexus'. But frankly what's the difference between 1 problem per car versus 1.5 problems per car?

I have to object to your blanket statement that anything "japanese" is more reliable. Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Isuzu have notorious long term reliablity problems. And even Mazda and Subaru are not in the same league as Honda and Toyota.

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They last longer and will always have far less electrical and engine problem.

I disagree. You may have component failures, or expensive repairs along the way, but I see far more old MB's on the road then I do old Japanese cars. Most have rusted away. Perhaps where you live salt isn't a factor. 5 or 6 year old Hondas around here have rust holes in them. Honda and Toyota both have very robust manufacturing cultures, meaning that design and styling often take a back seat to manufacturing ease and assembly. That often makes for less waste, higher process yields and increased component reliability. IMHO(the ML being the exception), MB, and BMW as well, tend to put the engineering and styling ahead of the manufacturing concerns- creating a more distinctive, more complicated, and more passionate car.

I think Nissan has realized this, and that's why you are seeing more emotional designs coming out of its factories of late. I think that they figured they would never have the manufacturing efficiency of Toyota or Honda, so they had better start turning out some interesting designs. Look at the results, the Altima, new Z, G35 twins, new Maxima, and even the love it or hate it Murano. I give them credit, I don't always like the results, but its refreshing to not see another UJS product. And on the flip side- its reliablity and customer satisfaction scores dropped. You do the math.

VW is another great example- its marketed and designed its cars to have a more emotional connection to the consumer- yet its reliablity is abysmal. They farmed out too much of its manufacturing operations to Mexico- and there was plenty of design defects as well.

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The main issue u failed to comment on is why in the world does benz have problems in their 01 models, their 02 models and the same freaken problems in there 03 models??????? Why hasnt benz fixed these issues all for the 02 models????? thats what im talking about.

No, I did comment on that...read my reply again. MB is no different than other companies- they all let problems fester for a few years. If the problem is relatively widespread and gets some bad press- they fix them faster. Jaguar's rear axle problem, Toyota's sludge problem, and Ford's Firestone tires are all recent examples that come to mind.

BenzC240

Ok first off I read your reply, nothing extra. Lets address all your issues. First anything japaneese in the same catagory as a "BENZ" is much better. I did not clarify this earlier but I should now since its affecting you that much. For example, this means lexus, acura and infiniti all beat benz when it comes to reliabilty. I agree all japaneese cars are not made equaly thats that why i compare the piece of JUNK (C240) I bought to the luxury japaneese cars. It would be unfair to compare my car to an izuzu or a mazda. But when u compare my car to an IS300 or a G35 or acura CL there is no match at all. They all beat my car in every aspect INCLUDING realiablity. By far they will last longer. Now to correct you its 1 problem (being lexus,acura)) versus 50 problems (being benz) your 1 and 1.5 example is way off. Extreemly off.

Now your next issue with rusting. Since when do people see more old benzs than japanees cars LOL. where do you live OLD BEVERLY HILLS???? LOL LOL LOL not true. I have been to may states and many cities by far you will see many old cars but an old benz once in a while, and geez the ones i c forget rust they need a new body LOL


Next issue, who cares about nissans emtional designs etc... you addressed. The bottom line is Benz is concerned with an image and safety rather than quality. This is a known issue. For one the japanees have managed to address all 3 safety,quality and image with no problem. Why cant benz do that? Second and i will repeat this for the third time since you are not able to answer this question even though you claim you did but u have not. By the way do not rely on JD POWERS for this question, wont get you any where LOL LOL. Ok the question is, in 01 model of the C240 there were many issues, over 20 technical issues all the way from car not starting and need to have the ignition replaced to people losing complete power in the middle of the highway do to some electrical thing needing to get replaced. Now these same problems every damn one of them also have accured on the 02 models and have occured on the 03 model. WHY, WHY WHY WHY cant benz spend some time and fix it so this wont happen on the 02 models and 03 models???????????? Now take a look at lexus and acura, when they have an issue the next year its not there. Thats what i mean by quality. Please do not defend your point using celica and accord examples, compare luxury with luxury.

By the way, did you find a musem for your car? Start looking man, thats the only good benz they ever made just messing with you

Outland

I never would have asked them to. I've always bought my own cars. You appreciate them more when its your own, your responsibility, and your money. And it doesn't take 55 Grand to buy a car a person can appreciate. My first car was a 1970 Opel GT, by the time it found its way to me it needed to be entirely rebuilt and restored- I loved every minute of it. The car cost me like 500 bucks. Spent two years putting it back together, tracking down parts for it, fabricating the ones we couldn't replace.

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you have no right or reason to judge me about the asian/chinese and my family's own family value when it comes to buying a car or any other thing.

I never judged you for you culture or ethnic background. Frankly until you just mentioned it, I didn't know, or care. However, youre attitude about the C230 implied that because it didn't cost a lot, it couldn't be a good car, or a 'real' Mercedes.

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another thing, my dad asked me if i want to consider the C32, i didn't ask or beg him to get me one. My parents are the ones that gave me a 2 cars limit, which the next one will have to get it on my own.

A 2 car limit...that's pretty generous considering the cost of a C32. I will not be buying a car for my son when he gets old enough to drive. Not because I'm trying to mean or cheap, but in my experience, young drivers do not appreciate cars that are bought for them. I'm glad my parents allowed me to do it on my own, I learned early on about cars, learned to take care of my own property, and in retrospect I still had a pretty cool car to drive when I was in high school and college. Sure, it broke down from time to time, but damn it was nearly twenty years old And I learned early on that the price of a night of redline clutch dumps at the strip was a new clutch, and a days worth of wrenching on the car on the weekend when I would have rather been out with my friends.

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I have no problem driving around in a Civic or a Sentra, but i'll definitely save it up for a better car. I could be still driving the same car 9-10 years from now when you get another new car or two.

Perhaps you will. If the C-Coupe continues to be enjoyeable to me, perhaps I will as well. I'm not the type of guy who has to have the "latests and coolest".

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btw, did i say my car is affordable for most people? NO. I said,"MB sells it's C-coupe to ppl who want MB's brand "image" at a affordable price"

I disagree...I think the C-Coupe was more intended to put MB on the 'radar' so to speak, of younger, up and coming car buyers. MB was turning into the Buick of luxury cars. A big problem for many brands now is that when a young person buys a car, its often one of the brands that considered 'cool and hip' based on current trends, cars used in video games, etc, or cars they grew up with. Lets face it, MB isn't that company. By making an MB accessible to a younger buyer, or perhaps an older buyer that would not have condsidered MB before, that person would 'hopefully' buy another one of MB's more profitable cars if they enjoyed the differences of owning an MB. Japanese 'luxury' cars have been affordable for some time, and have made inroads into the market that the germans have traditionally considered a lock. In terms of content, the car is untouchable in base form. You think of the car as a 'sellout' that is desirable only because of the star on the grille. That must apply to the C230 sedan as well. I think that its a fine car on its own merits. And like I said earlier, the one thing that would keep me from buying another MB is the proliferation of that damn automatic transmission. So, I think that theyve succeeding in bringing in 'new blood', but how long they will keep them is another matter. BMW's MINI forway was intended to do the same thing, but I think that they have kinda failed in that respect, as sales figures show that the MINI is canablizing some of the new and used 3 series sales. Its a great little car. Just wish they made one a little bigger . Wouldn't be a mini then, now would it?

FrankW

Outland, check my other posts...I never said C230 isn't a good car. How do you know young kids today don't appreciate and value their car? I know I do, and most of my friends do as well. We're all glad that we're born into the families that we have. FYI, the insurance money we got from the insurance company for the first car went into the C32, all $41k of it. So $67k for both car. With what you said about today's young people buy cars that follows the trend, if that's true, then why do people buy and still buying C230k sportscoupe then, other then for it's Mercedes-Benz brand image. In C230k coupe's price range most of the other competitor are what? Honda Accord and Toyota Solara. For the same money which would you get?

MINI has little to nothing to do with the decline in the sales of the 3-series. The main reason for it's decline is that the current 3-series is basically near the end of it's production. The next 3 will probably come in 05. Other reason might being that the current A4 came out not long ago and as well as the C-class and the Jag X-type. There's whole lot of more different choices compare to what was back in 99 when the E46 just came out and facing competitor like the last A4 which has been there for some time and the W202 C-class which has also been there for some time.

JadeLotus

OK, gentlemen, I think you're talking around the same issue from different sides. We are way beyond the question of reliability and repair problems now. To say that the C-coupe is attracting younger buyers with a "cool brand-conscious image" in a small price tag is saying the same thing as Outland that MB is attempting to build brand loyalty at a young age.

Outland, that is one of the best explanations of MB's market positioning and branding strategy that I have heard in a while, and I have thought since the W203 has come out that they have done a brilliant job. Hey, I'm a statistic in favor of that argument. I personally didn't buy an E class though I probably could have because it's just a little too "old" for me right now. (Then again, check out the W211- wouldn't mind driving that one!) I wanted something stylish and sporty, and you know what? Despite the few problems I have had with my car (and perhaps because of them since I have found a great service dept!) I definitely am building some brand loyalty. I am much more likely to consider one of MB's high end cars in 10 years than I would have been before I bought my C.

By the way, I may have a little perspective on the reliability issue since I work in marketing for a manufacturing company. Now, it's not automotive related, but my experience tells me that manufacturing outfits are more or less the same regardless of industry. Outland hit the nail on the head when talking about Nissan's and VW's "emotional" designs. Whenever you begin to work on something revolutionary from a design standpoint, it is going to affect quality, end of story. When you can no longer use proven suppliers, or have to begin different tooling/molding processes, etc. you are essentially starting from Square 1. The only thing you can do is use your knowledge and your best guess to eliminate problems before they make it to the line. That said, you aren't going to catch everything.

And while we would LOVE to say "why can't they fix the problems that occurred in '01 for the '02 and '03 models?", you also have to remember that cars are not manufactured by snapping your fingers. These car makers are running a business. They have parts committments to their suppliers. They have millions of parts fabricated before they start bringing the new models to be assembled. They are not going to dump those parts and shut down the line while they make new ones. So we're talking at least a year for supplier changes, that's not even taking into account the engineering and design changes that have to take place before you can begin refabricating parts.


Honda and Toyota don't have as many problems because their year-to-year changes are subtle. Styling perhaps, but the internal components change very slowly. If you only have 1 new part as opposed to 50, you have a 1/50th of the chance of problems.

If you want an illustration on the opposite end of the spectrum, just look at McLaren Mercedes' Formula 1 team after 1999. They were plagued with reliability problems after radically changing their car design, to the point that Mika Hakkinen could practically not finish a race! I seem to remember him having a DNF on one of his last races before retirement after leading 3/4 of the race. David Coulthard, who had the second car had fewer issues since many of the initial changes were made on Hakkinen's. Before anyone jumps on me for comparing Formula 1 to street cars, let me just say that this is an illustration of a proven design being changed to some unexpected and unfortunate results. (And for you Formula1 junkies out there, don't start talking to me about recent seasons to me. I stopped watching after Mika retired. Wasn't any fun to watch Michael Schumacher win every race anymore. Though if the new generation like Raikkonen and Montoya keep it up, I may just be lured back.)

BenzC240

Ok im flat out gonna say this, JADELOTUS should be the new BS spokesperson for BENZ with out a doubt LOL. Im serious, that is the most BS back up on an issue i have ever heard. When i read your reply and explanation and backing up of outlaw i could not stop laughing. I even had to print it and show it to some co workers who also started laughing at how BS can sound good LOL. Lets address your issues since out law ran out of defenses. First it is NO, I MEAN NO NO NO NO NO NO NO excuse for Benz not to be able to fix their issues in 02 and 03 models they had in 01. your statement """They are not going to dump those parts and shut down the line while they make new ones""" is sooo funny. For once did u even consider your self as a customer and how you should be treated when buying a new car thats been around for 2 to 3 years??????????? NO ofcourse not. You seem to think outlands explanation of how they targeted younger buyers by using a nice image on a car impressive. My god, would u wake up, it doesnt take a brain sergeoun to figure that out LOL . thats what i have been saying all along, they focused on IMAGE and not QUALITY as they should have. It not about throwing away parts and using different ones, its about using what they have correcty and understanding why problems happen and REACT TO IT. Your explanation of this that it should be normal and that they cant just throw away their parts is messed up. If thats your reasoning then you deserve every problem u may get from your car and u have no right to complain or get upset not even for one freaken second. Its not good business from any company to continue using parts as u put it if they arent working well. Thats like saying one part will break down after 6 months but oh well, lets not lose any money replacing it because it can cost us too much. Is that what u want from a product you purchase??????????? If u can accept an idea like that then i feel sorry for you. By the way where the hell do u work because i wanna make sure i never buy, look at, or even consider any of your companys products with an employees attitude towards quality like yours. Thats a joke. get real, wake up , and start thinking as a customer.

JadeLotus

Thanks, that gave me a real chuckle, BenzC240. Go ahead and keep thinking that that's not the way that the REAL world works, I won't try to disabuse you of it. I'm just telling you like it is. If you think for one minute that people making baby food or bandaids or anything else that are supposedly for the good of humanity are doing it for the warm fuzzy feeling they get, you're dreaming. It's for profit. It's the way the world works. You dump millions of parts next time there is a 1-2% failure rate, and you're out of business. Get over it.

And by the way, I have no problem admitting that I'm impressed by a brilliant marketing strategy. I admire a company with creativity enough to reinvent themselves. It makes the marketplace stronger and eventually results in better and more interesting products for consumers. I back up Outland 'cause he GETS it. I know you THINK you get it, but the fact that you're arguing that it's a bad thing...

Eh, whatever. I like a good debate, and I figured that reply would be controversial (LOL- how far off topic have we really gotten???), but unfortunately it's true as well. Sorry.

By the way, you should be outraged that when the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated, most of the aerospace experts said they were surprised it hadn't happened sooner, given all the things that could go wrong in space travel, and all the parts that could be damaged. A catastrophic event every so many thousands of flight hours is to be expected, they said. THAT'S NASA FOR GOD'S SAKE! So I don't get overly upset over a passenger vehicle. (Good thing Benz doesn't make space shuttles though.)

P.S. BenzC240- thanks to you and your coworkers for the compliment. I thought my explanation sounded pretty good. Ha!

BenzC240

Just as i thought, the heat is on and i feel you sweating, got u were i want u LOL. Its sooooo freaken pathetic we have people with your business attitude. Because of people like you who accept things the way they things will never change. Like i said wake up. Im not stupid and i realize how comapanies work. All im saying is that it should not be that way. Did u get that part or are u as slow as outlaw and need JD POWERS to back u up? LOL LOL LOL Hope that made sense. BUt since i can see u r a follower and not a starter i will go easy on u for now. lol Following and accepting things and not complaing about them and talking about the problem is why things remain how they are. Please for your on first grade education do not compare the space shuttle with the car. Those peoples lives who died should not be used for mocking purposes as u have degraded your self and used. I can see u ran out of good BS material u had to stoop so low. I still cant belive that in this day and age benzs marketing impresses u. Again is that brain surgery? lol doesnt take so much to figure out. Hell if i make a paper airplane and put a spolier on it will that impress u too? LOL LOL . So again your remark "GET OVER" is used for loser,followers, and pathetic people who cant handel good quality. Your motto should be "LETS MAKE A CHANGE, lets bring this to their attention" but to sit there and accept it because of baby food analogy u brought up is plain pathetic. By the way, since u r slow ill break it down for you, my co workers were laughing at u not with you. Again,listen, wake up and learn. Be a customer not a follower.

JadeLotus

Awww, come now, did we really have to resort to this kind of attitude? I thought we were just having a friendly discussion. Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed. I had pegged you for smart enough to get my points and engage in a lively debate but I'm sorry to see that's not the case.

I considered this an interesting argument for the sake of argument, sorry that you have taken it so much to heart. Obviously what I said got to you. I will refrain from the name calling, since I really don't feel that I need to. But since you lacked the subtlety to recognize irony when it is offered, I'll spell it out for you.

The space shuttle illustration was to point out that there are FAR more important things in this world to worry about. THAT is a matter of life and death. This is not. Spend your time being outraged that the lives of a space shuttle crew died and the analysts say it's amazing it didn't happen sooner (even worse- that it's an acceptable risk for the sake of science), instead of hypothesizing that your car's failure rate reflects the worthlessness and corruption of today's business culture.

Since you didn't get it the first time, the "thanks to you and your coworkers" was tongue-in-cheek.

For the rest of you reading this thread, I'm rather tired of this topic, and if I had've had the foresight to see where this would lead us, I probably would have bailed on the thread a long time ago. BenzC240, you'll probably take that as a sign that I can't "take the heat." That's your prerogative. I would've been happy to trade jabs with you had you not ran out of valid arguments and had to stoop to ridiculous ranting.

Oh, and since you offered, I would be pretty impressed by a paper airplane with a spoiler. Give me an advertising budget and I betcha I could convince you to buy it. Hell, you're so unimpressed with Benz, but I see YOU still bought into it. Enjoy your Lexus... let us know how it works out. *wink*

So, thanks everyone, it's been fun. Anyone else want to take up where I left off? BenzC240's still got lots more to say to it, I'm sure, and I'd hate to deprive this forum of his pearls of wisdom.

FrankW

German and Japanese have different philosophy on building cars, that's all.

btw, JadeLotus, what kind of rims do you have again? the AMG type III is the 'thin spoke' and it doesn't come in 16". Maybe you meant type II monoblock?...just letting you know you might have a typo.

DL_AMG

it's all because of PROFIT.
1. They are making sure your car will not out last the warranty period so you will buy another new car once the warranty runs out.
2. Do not buy first year car, espeically now the US Model introduces at the sametime with European model. They used to have 1-2 years delay to work out the bugs before intro to US market but not anymore.
3. MB used to be over building there cars, but not anymore. Why? too much $.

It is too bad they no longer making car like they used to but they are still par with BMW.

JadeLotus

Hey, FrankW, you might be right about the rims. I'll have to check it out. Unfortunately, the person I bought the car from didn't know a whole lot about cars, let alone rims, so I was going on the best information I could find about the style name online. The available options have changed some since '01 so it's not all that easy. Thanks for pointing it out...

DL_AMG: I have to second the "don't buy the first model year" issue. I don't remember the month that MB began producing the C-class, but my build date is 9/00, so I'd have to think I have one of the first ones that came off the line. Most of the problems that I had with my car have not been reproduced in the '02 and '03 models- I guess they figured out the big issues. True, the original owner should have had those issues addressed herself, but she wasn't nearly as picky as I am- she never noticed!

Edit: FrankW, check this out and tell me what it is... MB describes these as AMG Style III and this is exactly what I have in the 16"... maybe it's the wheel that came with the sport package in '01? I'm curious now. I'm not sure if they were on the car originally- she said she didn't like the rims that were on there, so she upgraded.

BenzC240

Jadelotus, its really too bad that you and acouple of people here dont get it. The whole issue is why settle for something when it can be better. U totaly miss the point and keep going around and around it. When you spend money u expect to get what u paid for. I spent more than i would buying a lexus or an infiniti and i didnt get as much as i put in. So your philosphy in life that accept it and move on is weak. If everyone did what u did there will never be quality. when people voice their opionions, speak out loud and complain things change, things get better. Im sorry u feel that way about life, not sure if its something the company u work for brain washed u with, who knows.

Now to address your issue that i dont understand irony and the tongue in cheek coment, i do get it. Im not dumb, i just wanted to use it against u LOL. Come on, where is your sense of humor? or did u take this serious enough to doubt my understanding????? ask your self that question before u accuse me of taking this to "so much heart".

About the paper plane, weather its a joke, irony, or sarcasm what ever u call it, i just want to make it clear, any one with your business philosphy cant sell me anything. Trust me u wouldnt want me buying it because i would be calling u up every day telling u how much quality sucks knowing how u will use benz's strategy in building it LOL LOL LOL

I would also like to set the record straight. Before I bought my benz i did not know anyone who actauly had the C model. Therefore i was going on the words and thoughts of most people that this car will last for a very long time, good quality, and is safe. Well I got the safe part, I didnt get the rest. So according to you "me buying into it" is compeltely false. I had no idea the C class had all these issues. My mistake was not doing some home work first and reading this forum with all the problems the other people were having before I bought my car.

As to the lexus, I have to wait another 2 years then ill have this car paid off at that point im for sure getting it.

By the way, please dont think im sitting here worying about benzs problems and my car issue 24/7 LOL, I just come here say my piece thats all. If you felt too mature for this u could have stopped responding after your first reply but u didnt, check your self before u point out my issues LOL

Now the last thing. Please try and understand where i am coming from. I do get angry at people who just accept things, who are followers and who sit back and do nothing. I cant stand to see my hard earned cash go down the drain. I also do get angry at companys who take their image for granted and slack off on quality as benz has done. So if my posts on here got to u and upset u, and dispointed u then im sorry. But i can safely tell u they really werent too targeted at u personaly but they were used for venting. So if u r up for it i am willing to have a peaceful and intelegent debate on any subject.

JadeLotus

Hey, that's the kind of reply I would have expected in the first place! Thanks, I appreciate it. No sarcasm, really. By the way, I do have a sense of humor, but take a moment and realize that typing "LOL" after everything doesn't immediately mean it's funny or that it's going to be taken as a joke. Ranting and venting here is fine, but at the same time, it's hard to take any of your points seriously when they're coming from a truly emotional standpoint. I get frustrated with people who seem to dismiss things without considering them. Especially when I had just mentioned that this was the single forum I've ever been on where most people are thoughtful and intelligent!

We can always debate this further though I'm not sure we're going to come to any conclusion... though I'm glad you agree we can do it rationally. I can understand how you are upset because your car disappointed you, but I'm still think you're misconstruing my point! Actually, I didn't intend my first post to be directed to you any more than you say your comments aren't directed to me. I was actually trying to explain why it is that problems don't get fixed, not making a value judgement or defending MB. As far as my business practices go, my company probably overcorrects based on isolated incidents, which is great for the 2 customers with a problem, but not for the thousands that would have otherwise benefited from a price decrease which will now not happen because of increased manufacturing cost. So whether or not I agree with it, I can understand it. I'm willing to bet that, unless you own your own company or work for a non-profit, your executives probably have to make tough decisions that you wouldn't like, but... you get to take home a paycheck because of those decisions. So, it really all comes back around.

I was also trying to make the point that I'm glad MB didn't decide to rest on their laurels and have decided to make some risky design and engineering decisions. Until recently, I would never have considered a small Benz because they've been known to be slugs-- that's why I drove a BMW. They finally wised up and have done a good job on capturing that part of the market. I have no doubt the quality will follow- it's just too bad that you got a crappy car in the meantime, cause you probably won't see any of the ones to come. I'm not unhappy with mine. Had the first owner known anything about cars, she would have had these problems fixed and I probably would never have known about them. They actually WERE design and parts flaws, and except for the irritating purge valve that started this whole thread, I haven't seen on this board that those issues have reoccurred much in later models. So at least something got fixed.

So... you're probably not going to convince me that MB puts out only crappy cars since I am really pretty happy with mine... and I'm not going to convince you that they don't, considering your own experience. But, hey, I'm pleased to see that you proved yourself more intelligent than your typing skills indicate. (LOL- sorry, that was just a joke in good fun- couldn't resist!)

So, you're not upset, I'm not upset... actually, I kinda get a kick out of this stuff. You think we've covered this sufficiently to close out the thread? I'll catch ya on another one- if I try hard, I'm sure I'll be able to give you something else to rant about.

FrankW

the picture above is the AMG type III, but doesn't come in 16". The AMG rims that are available for the C-class is listed HERE--AMG offcial site

the 01-02 C-class sport pkg came with 5-spoke 16" rims, but they were not AMG rims. maybe she got replica rims or something. Best way to figure out is for you to take a picture of your rims.

Edit: found a picture of the sport pkg on the C picture thread.

BenzC240

I guess Jade this means we made up right? Its all good, I guess u and i will never really agree on the same issues. But hey, this was fun. I have acouple of other threads im involvd in heated debates, check me out LOL. I already have a guy there banging his head But this was fun. Check you out later