grinding/grumbling/popping diagnosis help (leads to misfiring P0302)
11-15-2011, 11:45 AM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
thanks...
the service provider said that they're possibly "cracked" at a weld.. but their test was only by listening to hear the leak and smelling the gas/exhaust. when i told this to Cory at kleemann, he thought it wasn't a good diagnosis.
the were originally pinning the limp mode to an exhaust leak because my entire exhaust is aftermarket (headers, cat, downpipe, resonator, muffler...). I think this is their "easy" way out.. but I'm afraid its not causing limp mode.
I put on a new cat (completely unnecessary) and got it inspected last saturday and they couldn't find anything wrong with leaks downstream from headers. I can't imagine what would cause a leak at the interface of the headers and engine block.. so i hope its a misdiagnosis.
it is back at the dealership today after talking to service manager and they're giving it a second look.
in the meantime i'm enjoying a 2011 g37 loaner
calling in a few for a service update (fingers crossed!)
the service provider said that they're possibly "cracked" at a weld.. but their test was only by listening to hear the leak and smelling the gas/exhaust. when i told this to Cory at kleemann, he thought it wasn't a good diagnosis.
the were originally pinning the limp mode to an exhaust leak because my entire exhaust is aftermarket (headers, cat, downpipe, resonator, muffler...). I think this is their "easy" way out.. but I'm afraid its not causing limp mode.
I put on a new cat (completely unnecessary) and got it inspected last saturday and they couldn't find anything wrong with leaks downstream from headers. I can't imagine what would cause a leak at the interface of the headers and engine block.. so i hope its a misdiagnosis.
it is back at the dealership today after talking to service manager and they're giving it a second look.
in the meantime i'm enjoying a 2011 g37 loaner
calling in a few for a service update (fingers crossed!)
11-15-2011, 01:07 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
You gotta love the dealer. Why are they incapable of actual diagnosis? They charge $120+ an hour for diagnostics and then completely BS you.
11-15-2011, 09:32 PM
#29
Super Moderator
Take their Star away & they are clueless. Give them their Star & half of them don't know how to use the damn thing - how many dealers have we had that can't even select Xenon = present? No surprise that Benz does not want dealers to have developer mode active.
11-21-2011, 02:31 PM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
UPDATE: possibly bad CAT (that was JUST replaced)
Here are my emails to/from Cory...
So far he doesn't buy it... but I dont know what else it may be...
ME:
"Hi Cory,
I had ordered a Kleemann replacement Cat for my 2003 c230 m271 a couple weeks ago because I was told that it was clogged by the dealership, and now I might have to order another one...
Attached are the dealer codes during their evaluation...
Honestly, the last thing that I would assume is that the new Cat that I had just installed was "defective"... but after taking my car to the dealership for continuing misfires and limp mode problems... they were pretty confident that the Cat is bad. During my visit, they replaced my air pressure sensor and I argued with them that it is very unlikely that this Cat is defective because it was only installed 3 days before my service visit. They told me that the limp mode/drivability problems was solved by removing the downstream O2 sensor, and the hesitation in acceleration was caused by a clog in the Kleemann Cat. To look more into the issue, I took it to my local exhaust specialist.
The exhaust shop first let my car run for 20-30 minutes, and brought me under while they took a temperature gun to each section of the exhaust downstream of the engine block. In their professional opinion, there was a dramatic difference in temperature between the pre and post cat making them confident that it was blocked. What is a typical temperature differential pre and post upper Cat? (I want to check the numbers they gave me). For example, in the downstream section of the second Cat... there was only 10-12 degee difference, which seemed fine.
I have already put around $600 parts and labor to replacing this Cat recently, and it would be painful to do it a second time if it actually isn't defective. It was very hard for me to accept this possibility, but after hearing the same conclusion from both Mercedes and my exhaust shop, I think it may be reasonable. What do you think?
If we decide to try another Cat... would it be possible to send it first before I return the one I have? (so that I my car will be drive-able)
Thanks again for your time,"
CORY @ Kleemann:
"Looks like you had a fault code for the MAP sensor- there are actually 2 of them- one for ambient pressure and the other for manifold vaccum/boost pressure. However, the fault code was charge pressure too high, meaning the car thinks it's making too much boost pressure, which would certainly cause the car to go into limp mode.
a 10 degree difference between the inlet and outlet of the primary cat is by no means 'significant'. a 40 degree difference would raise my eyebrow, but not a 10 degree difference. If they really think your cat is clogged, perhaps they should take 15 minutes and take the down pipe off and visually inspect it, rather than relying on some erroneous idea of what a significant temperature differential is. These cats don't typically get clogged anyway- it's a metallic cat, and the core material will actually collapse in on itself, rather than becoming clogged. I am 90% sure your cat is perfectly fine. If your dealer doesn't believe that, take the down pipe off and look at the core material with a flashlight.
I'm not sure what else to tell you. Without having the car in my shop it's hard for me to say what the problem is, but I'm relatively certain the problem is not the headers, or the cat. Could be a bad O2 sensor (unlikely), The spacer we use on the secondary O2 sensor could have carbon build up and could need to be removed and cleaned, etc.
Has your car throw the same MAP sensor fault since the sensor was replaced? If so, there's something else going on with the car. Dealerships are usually very good at throwing parts at a car to try and fix problems, but most dealers are not so good at actually diagnosing a problem properly.
I don't see any data from the file you sent me that would suggest a bad catalyst."
ME:
"Hi Cory
Thanks for the response. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first email...but the 10-15 degree difference was in the lower (OEM) cat. I didn't say...but the temperature differential in the upper cat was actually about 105 degrees...with the headers at around 212 deg.
I can give you the contact of the exhaust shop if that helps...and that of the dealership.
The maf was cleaned and air pressure sensor was replaced.
What should we do from here?
I also forgot to mention that the 02 sensors are also new (less than 1 month old)"
CORY:
"Hi Abrahm-
Someone needs to take the down pipe off the car and visually inspect the cat. Other than that, without having your car in my shop, I'm not sure I can make any other suggestions."
ME:
"Hi Cory,
Its my understanding that either one of two things are causing the limp mode.
(1) My car either "thinks" it has too much boost pressure. Which would be caused by faulty sensors.
(2) My car actually has too much boost pressure... caused by a physical blockage which the sensors are correctly reading.
When I accelerate, I feel a resistance and hesitation.. and as soon as I let off the gas, the car has a small/rapid kick-back deceleration. When I continue to drive on the highway and get above 3k rpm... the car goes into limp mode because of either one of the two possibilities above (If my understanding is correct).
During the Cat install at the exhaust shop (http://www.hi-flocustom.com/), they showed me the internals of both Cats and said that they couldn't see any difference because it was metal inside. However, they replaced it anyway. After the replacement brings me to my current dilemma and given that all the service that my car has recently received (air pressure sensor was replaced, in addition to the O2 sensors and MAF cleaned, etc..), I can't think of what else to do.
I could make an appointment and go back to the exhaust shop to visually inspect the Cat, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for. They seemed confident that it was a bad Cat because of the big temperature difference as measured by their gun... and they also showed me a "blue-ish" portion of the Kleemann Cat which they say is due to the tempurature difference.
I want to be as cautious as possible with diagnosing this, but I feel like I've explored all of the avenues that I could think of to single this out.
Here is my suggestion. Would you be willing to sell me yet another Cat (hopefully for a fair/discounted price), and I will replace the one I have and ship the presumed "defective" one back to you. You can test it and verify if it is truely defective or not. If it is defective, then issue me a refund for the second purchase... and if it is not defective based on your testing, then I will absorb the cost.
Its the best suggestion that I can think of because unfortunately, I'm too far away [to go to your shop].
What do you think?
Thanks again for your patience,"
"I forgot to mention that there have been absolutely no CEL's when it goes into limp mode since the sensors have been replaced at my last dealership visit. Also, the spacer is in the right place.
It just goes into limp mode with no codes.."
ME:
"Also, to clear up any confusion... My original problem started as a CAM sensor leak which caused oil everywhere and misfires. As a result, the dealership replaced all sensors, cleaned MAF, and told me to replace the Cat.
The reason for the second (current) Kleemann Cat replacement, according to them AND the independent exhaust shop is that they both think the replaced Cat is defective/clogged (based on the analysis/reasoning in my previous email(s))
Their diagnoses sounds reasonable to me at this point, even though I consider it a very low possibility for you to send me a defective one. I'm just not sure what else to explore as possibilities as a cause of this for limp mode and hesitation with acceleration given all that has been done."
What do you guys think about this?
-Are there any other possibilities for causing it to go into limp mode based on my car's errors codes?
-I can attach the code sheets if that helps, but Cory mentions them in the emails above
My car feels like a cancer patient
So far he doesn't buy it... but I dont know what else it may be...
ME:
"Hi Cory,
I had ordered a Kleemann replacement Cat for my 2003 c230 m271 a couple weeks ago because I was told that it was clogged by the dealership, and now I might have to order another one...
Attached are the dealer codes during their evaluation...
Honestly, the last thing that I would assume is that the new Cat that I had just installed was "defective"... but after taking my car to the dealership for continuing misfires and limp mode problems... they were pretty confident that the Cat is bad. During my visit, they replaced my air pressure sensor and I argued with them that it is very unlikely that this Cat is defective because it was only installed 3 days before my service visit. They told me that the limp mode/drivability problems was solved by removing the downstream O2 sensor, and the hesitation in acceleration was caused by a clog in the Kleemann Cat. To look more into the issue, I took it to my local exhaust specialist.
The exhaust shop first let my car run for 20-30 minutes, and brought me under while they took a temperature gun to each section of the exhaust downstream of the engine block. In their professional opinion, there was a dramatic difference in temperature between the pre and post cat making them confident that it was blocked. What is a typical temperature differential pre and post upper Cat? (I want to check the numbers they gave me). For example, in the downstream section of the second Cat... there was only 10-12 degee difference, which seemed fine.
I have already put around $600 parts and labor to replacing this Cat recently, and it would be painful to do it a second time if it actually isn't defective. It was very hard for me to accept this possibility, but after hearing the same conclusion from both Mercedes and my exhaust shop, I think it may be reasonable. What do you think?
If we decide to try another Cat... would it be possible to send it first before I return the one I have? (so that I my car will be drive-able)
Thanks again for your time,"
CORY @ Kleemann:
"Looks like you had a fault code for the MAP sensor- there are actually 2 of them- one for ambient pressure and the other for manifold vaccum/boost pressure. However, the fault code was charge pressure too high, meaning the car thinks it's making too much boost pressure, which would certainly cause the car to go into limp mode.
a 10 degree difference between the inlet and outlet of the primary cat is by no means 'significant'. a 40 degree difference would raise my eyebrow, but not a 10 degree difference. If they really think your cat is clogged, perhaps they should take 15 minutes and take the down pipe off and visually inspect it, rather than relying on some erroneous idea of what a significant temperature differential is. These cats don't typically get clogged anyway- it's a metallic cat, and the core material will actually collapse in on itself, rather than becoming clogged. I am 90% sure your cat is perfectly fine. If your dealer doesn't believe that, take the down pipe off and look at the core material with a flashlight.
I'm not sure what else to tell you. Without having the car in my shop it's hard for me to say what the problem is, but I'm relatively certain the problem is not the headers, or the cat. Could be a bad O2 sensor (unlikely), The spacer we use on the secondary O2 sensor could have carbon build up and could need to be removed and cleaned, etc.
Has your car throw the same MAP sensor fault since the sensor was replaced? If so, there's something else going on with the car. Dealerships are usually very good at throwing parts at a car to try and fix problems, but most dealers are not so good at actually diagnosing a problem properly.
I don't see any data from the file you sent me that would suggest a bad catalyst."
ME:
"Hi Cory
Thanks for the response. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first email...but the 10-15 degree difference was in the lower (OEM) cat. I didn't say...but the temperature differential in the upper cat was actually about 105 degrees...with the headers at around 212 deg.
I can give you the contact of the exhaust shop if that helps...and that of the dealership.
The maf was cleaned and air pressure sensor was replaced.
What should we do from here?
I also forgot to mention that the 02 sensors are also new (less than 1 month old)"
CORY:
"Hi Abrahm-
Someone needs to take the down pipe off the car and visually inspect the cat. Other than that, without having your car in my shop, I'm not sure I can make any other suggestions."
ME:
"Hi Cory,
Its my understanding that either one of two things are causing the limp mode.
(1) My car either "thinks" it has too much boost pressure. Which would be caused by faulty sensors.
(2) My car actually has too much boost pressure... caused by a physical blockage which the sensors are correctly reading.
When I accelerate, I feel a resistance and hesitation.. and as soon as I let off the gas, the car has a small/rapid kick-back deceleration. When I continue to drive on the highway and get above 3k rpm... the car goes into limp mode because of either one of the two possibilities above (If my understanding is correct).
During the Cat install at the exhaust shop (http://www.hi-flocustom.com/), they showed me the internals of both Cats and said that they couldn't see any difference because it was metal inside. However, they replaced it anyway. After the replacement brings me to my current dilemma and given that all the service that my car has recently received (air pressure sensor was replaced, in addition to the O2 sensors and MAF cleaned, etc..), I can't think of what else to do.
I could make an appointment and go back to the exhaust shop to visually inspect the Cat, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for. They seemed confident that it was a bad Cat because of the big temperature difference as measured by their gun... and they also showed me a "blue-ish" portion of the Kleemann Cat which they say is due to the tempurature difference.
I want to be as cautious as possible with diagnosing this, but I feel like I've explored all of the avenues that I could think of to single this out.
Here is my suggestion. Would you be willing to sell me yet another Cat (hopefully for a fair/discounted price), and I will replace the one I have and ship the presumed "defective" one back to you. You can test it and verify if it is truely defective or not. If it is defective, then issue me a refund for the second purchase... and if it is not defective based on your testing, then I will absorb the cost.
Its the best suggestion that I can think of because unfortunately, I'm too far away [to go to your shop].
What do you think?
Thanks again for your patience,"
"I forgot to mention that there have been absolutely no CEL's when it goes into limp mode since the sensors have been replaced at my last dealership visit. Also, the spacer is in the right place.
It just goes into limp mode with no codes.."
ME:
"Also, to clear up any confusion... My original problem started as a CAM sensor leak which caused oil everywhere and misfires. As a result, the dealership replaced all sensors, cleaned MAF, and told me to replace the Cat.
The reason for the second (current) Kleemann Cat replacement, according to them AND the independent exhaust shop is that they both think the replaced Cat is defective/clogged (based on the analysis/reasoning in my previous email(s))
Their diagnoses sounds reasonable to me at this point, even though I consider it a very low possibility for you to send me a defective one. I'm just not sure what else to explore as possibilities as a cause of this for limp mode and hesitation with acceleration given all that has been done."
What do you guys think about this?
-Are there any other possibilities for causing it to go into limp mode based on my car's errors codes?
-I can attach the code sheets if that helps, but Cory mentions them in the emails above
My car feels like a cancer patient
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 11-21-2011 at 02:51 PM.
11-21-2011, 02:53 PM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
11-21-2011, 03:29 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
UPDATE on emails with Cory
CORY:
"To provide warranty replacement on a part, you need to send me the part in question for me to make a determination, so I'm not willing to give you any yes or no answer right now. It is HIGHLY unlikely it was defective new, from KLEEMANN. The Catalyst is not produced by KLEEMANN- we order these from a catalyst manufacturer, they are inspected before being welded into whatever downpipe they're going in and inspected after the welding process, and inspected once more before they leave KLEEMANN World Headquarters, and I also give it a once over before I ship it from our USA warehouse. I'm not against the idea of replacing it under warranty IF, and only if I find it is defective. But again, I need the part in question in my hand to make that determination. If I see any signs of incorrect handling, curb damage, incorrect installation, etc. KLEEMANN's warranty is null. To clarify, I've attached our warranty terms.
Again, I'm not trying to leave you high and dry and I'm willing to help, but endless emails guessing what the problem is helps no one in the end. If you want me to determine if your new downpipe is eligible for warranty replacement, please send it to me and we will inspect it and let you know what we think."
ME:
"Thanks Cory,
The last thing I want to do is replace a part that isn't broken because it costs both our time and money.
I have been trying my best to diagnose my car's problems one step at a time and will try my best to explore other possibilities for these errors before making the steps to replace an assumed defective Cat.
I was arguing with the dealership about Kleemann's quality, defending your side. They ended up keeping the car an extra day to re-diagnose... but stood firm on their conclusion. I still wasn't convinced and took it to the muffler shop who told me the same thing... so I'm having a hard time to think outside the box for causes.
My one question for warranty, is... does welding the downstream end void warranty? Since it isn't clamped it will be sawed off before I would have to ship it. I'm going to read through the attachment now. But to quickly answer a few assumptions, there were no signs of scraping or mis-installation that I could remember.
I will keep you posted and again am thankful for your patience."
"To provide warranty replacement on a part, you need to send me the part in question for me to make a determination, so I'm not willing to give you any yes or no answer right now. It is HIGHLY unlikely it was defective new, from KLEEMANN. The Catalyst is not produced by KLEEMANN- we order these from a catalyst manufacturer, they are inspected before being welded into whatever downpipe they're going in and inspected after the welding process, and inspected once more before they leave KLEEMANN World Headquarters, and I also give it a once over before I ship it from our USA warehouse. I'm not against the idea of replacing it under warranty IF, and only if I find it is defective. But again, I need the part in question in my hand to make that determination. If I see any signs of incorrect handling, curb damage, incorrect installation, etc. KLEEMANN's warranty is null. To clarify, I've attached our warranty terms.
Again, I'm not trying to leave you high and dry and I'm willing to help, but endless emails guessing what the problem is helps no one in the end. If you want me to determine if your new downpipe is eligible for warranty replacement, please send it to me and we will inspect it and let you know what we think."
ME:
"Thanks Cory,
The last thing I want to do is replace a part that isn't broken because it costs both our time and money.
I have been trying my best to diagnose my car's problems one step at a time and will try my best to explore other possibilities for these errors before making the steps to replace an assumed defective Cat.
I was arguing with the dealership about Kleemann's quality, defending your side. They ended up keeping the car an extra day to re-diagnose... but stood firm on their conclusion. I still wasn't convinced and took it to the muffler shop who told me the same thing... so I'm having a hard time to think outside the box for causes.
My one question for warranty, is... does welding the downstream end void warranty? Since it isn't clamped it will be sawed off before I would have to ship it. I'm going to read through the attachment now. But to quickly answer a few assumptions, there were no signs of scraping or mis-installation that I could remember.
I will keep you posted and again am thankful for your patience."
11-21-2011, 05:54 PM
#33
Super Moderator
You had better get this Cat to Cory. I know it's inconvenient. My original worries about a possible Cat problem are not definitive. I felt that symptoms were typical but I'm a long way away from the problem.
We've had a few Kleeman Cat problems on the forum but I have no idea what this represents as a %age because I don't know how many are fitted by members.
Modifying always leaves you in no man's land & don't worry - I've done plenty of it. With the modern Benz being what it is they are probably best left standard.
We've had a few Kleeman Cat problems on the forum but I have no idea what this represents as a %age because I don't know how many are fitted by members.
Modifying always leaves you in no man's land & don't worry - I've done plenty of it. With the modern Benz being what it is they are probably best left standard.
11-22-2011, 07:51 AM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
You had better get this Cat to Cory. I know it's inconvenient. My original worries about a possible Cat problem are not definitive. I felt that symptoms were typical but I'm a long way away from the problem.
We've had a few Kleeman Cat problems on the forum but I have no idea what this represents as a %age because I don't know how many are fitted by members.
Modifying always leaves you in no man's land & don't worry - I've done plenty of it. With the modern Benz being what it is they are probably best left standard.
We've had a few Kleeman Cat problems on the forum but I have no idea what this represents as a %age because I don't know how many are fitted by members.
Modifying always leaves you in no man's land & don't worry - I've done plenty of it. With the modern Benz being what it is they are probably best left standard.
Thanks for chiming in.
No man's land is not a fun place to be...
The only way to get this Cat to Cory and to be able to drive my car home is to order a third one from him and swap, then ship him the "defective" one. I know it is very unlikely that a Cat from kleemann is defective, but I'm fresh out of ideas... and am willing to dip into my wallet one last time. My biggest concern is that this is rooted to one of my previous problems and is "appearing" to be caused by a bad cat instead.
If that doesn't fix it I will be at a loss... unless you can think of anything else worth checking that could cause this problem (?).
02-21-2012, 07:25 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
UPDATE: Problem "SOLVED"
Hey Everyone,
Turns out that it wasn't Cory's CAT. I ended up purchasing a second one and never unboxed it to install. I realized that the chances of getting a defective part was too low, so I decided to dig deeper.
All the signs were pointing to a defective CAT, but I didn't realize that I had a secondary one for my M271.
I replaced the secondary OEM cat with straight tube today and the car drives great... however, with the stock resonator deleted (and bullet resonator added), it has a strong raspy sound. I wish I could get rid of it, and will have to search for solutions. Suggestions are welcome!
I'm just happy my car is running again.
Reflecting back on the previously diagnosed "leaky header manifold" and "bad air pressure sensor" makes me think these were secondary affects of the clogged CAT and may not have been bad after all.
Attached are a couple pics of the bad OEM CAT
Turns out that it wasn't Cory's CAT. I ended up purchasing a second one and never unboxed it to install. I realized that the chances of getting a defective part was too low, so I decided to dig deeper.
All the signs were pointing to a defective CAT, but I didn't realize that I had a secondary one for my M271.
I replaced the secondary OEM cat with straight tube today and the car drives great... however, with the stock resonator deleted (and bullet resonator added), it has a strong raspy sound. I wish I could get rid of it, and will have to search for solutions. Suggestions are welcome!
I'm just happy my car is running again.
Reflecting back on the previously diagnosed "leaky header manifold" and "bad air pressure sensor" makes me think these were secondary affects of the clogged CAT and may not have been bad after all.
Attached are a couple pics of the bad OEM CAT
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 02-21-2012 at 09:42 PM.
02-21-2012, 08:18 PM
#36
Super Moderator
Pleased you have finally solved the problem. Man this thing gave you the run around. Trying to get that rasp out of the exhaust without taking it back to stock won't be easy.
02-21-2012, 09:40 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
When I drive, I feel like I'm being followed by a tricked out civic whenever I accelerate. I can also really feel the flow through the "bend" of the exhaust where my CAT used to be. The high flow of a quick acceleration and the change in flow direction shakes the exhaust, but I can live with it
07-20-2012, 11:51 AM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
UPDATE
Even though replacing the bad primary cat and deleting the bad secondary OEM cat fixed the majority of the grinding/popping/etc... noises while driving in town... the problem seemed to not be 100% over since I had this done.
When driving on the highway, under load (uphill) at highspeeds, my car has been making the same noises. The stress relieved by the CAT fixes only helped the situation, and didn't seem to solve it. I couldn't figure it out for the longest time and just adjusted my driving style as to not provoke the noises/vibrations.
Just this past week, I had to replace my Serpentine belt which I was told was really worn out (along with my alternator and battery), and I haven't heard the noise since. Even when I have tried to provoke it, so far so good.
Would a bad belt be able to cause this grinding noise when the car is under load on the highway? (I'm curious if I'm completely out of the water)
When driving on the highway, under load (uphill) at highspeeds, my car has been making the same noises. The stress relieved by the CAT fixes only helped the situation, and didn't seem to solve it. I couldn't figure it out for the longest time and just adjusted my driving style as to not provoke the noises/vibrations.
Just this past week, I had to replace my Serpentine belt which I was told was really worn out (along with my alternator and battery), and I haven't heard the noise since. Even when I have tried to provoke it, so far so good.
Would a bad belt be able to cause this grinding noise when the car is under load on the highway? (I'm curious if I'm completely out of the water)
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 07-20-2012 at 11:53 AM.
