Harris

I really want this PSS-9 thing to come to a rest. As I've said before, I might like it or I might not like it. If you are so offended (or sensitive) on my statement "...this is the best CO available for our W203/209s...." I am willing to take it back and I will be EXTREMELY careful on making comments in the future. I apologize to everyone in here.

Let me conclude by saying this: I am NOT trying to make a big sales out of it. Harton Motorwerks is NOT a Bilstein dealer. I am importing this product because I have been sold for what I've been researching and I have told EVERYONE who enquired about this suspension to WAIT until I tested it out myself before buying it. Therefore, I have NOT sold a single set yet. I know what consequences this will give me. I am also the kind of person who loves substantiation. I am already being extra careful. I can even drop this product immediately if I want to. I think this is the beauty of having my own company.

oggle

Here comes the hard selling tactics once again.

alevy

One thing i didnt want was to start any kind of flame war.. I was just merely looking to find out what people thought of my selections.. Also.. Can someone tell me what the Kleeman boost kit does and do they make it for the C230k Sport Sedan.. and will it void engine warantee...


-Alex

hopup

Just by reading this thread w/ a neutral mind set, I honestly think Brad is slightly hard selling the H&R a bit too much and Harris is trying to provide us (enthusiasts) with another alternative CO. Prior to Harris introducing the Pss-9, I was seriously considering the H&R CO especially with all the good reviews about it; but now since there is something else in the market that can adjust to 9 different settings, how awesome is that!! Call me a “gimmick” guy, but maybe there is really something special about the PSS-9? Ultimately, it is our choice to purchase the more desirable Kit no matter who says what. I think it is only fair to have both CO’S tested/used by regulars like most of us and see how they perform on a daily basis and also able to provide the “ultimate [handling] experience” when desired.

Just for a curious note, as oppose to the CO’s I wonder how the regular suspension kits such as the Kleemann Speed Sensitive Suspension or Brabus full chassis performs in terms of quality and handling ? Any experiences/comments? Since Evosport is the dealer of Kleemann also, how would you compare the Kleemann Speed Sensitive Suspension to the H&R CO.

Finally, I think Harris is a trust worthy guy, I have dealt business with him a number of times and he is very professional and fair. In fact is much like most of us who crave for better gadgets for our cars, but he just happened to have a site that can provide us w/ more info and another alternatives. He is not a “mainstream” guy!

otoupalik

I am not sure I understand this as I never even really talk about the H&R. Just about the downsides of the PSS9 AS WELL AS the downside of the H&R PCS.

Also, I am not sure how I can be the only one who thinks a comment stating that this is the best thing ever from someone who has never used it is a bit, well, too much?

The kleemann is quite nice. However, it really is even more of a street suspension. It is less aggressive then the H&R, meaning MUCH less aggressive then the PSS9. Brabus is about equal to the Kleemann.

No one said he wasn't.

But realize that buying something on a manufactures recommendation or their hype vs. buying something that is tested is YOUR RISK.

If Harris woudl have stated "I have heard these are great, I am going to try them" - PERFECT! But to state "This is the best CO available for our W203/209s" with nothign to support that, is too much for me to handle. I have to deal with literally 10 calls a day from people who heard about something on the internet that is not accurate. People will trust Harris here as he is a good guy. That is the problem. He has no experience with them, yet is saying they are the best in the world! Now, people will trust him and buy them. What happens when/if Harris gets them and does not like them? Do those poor people who bought them on his recommendation get their money back? Do they get the labor back that they paid their local shop?

Thanks

Brad

Harris

Thats why I told ALL customers to WAIT until I've tested it first BEFORE buying it.

I took my statement back already. I hope you're happier now.

Yes, I shouldnt have made that comment before testing it. HOWEVER, you do not have that experience either. All along you're saying how bad the PSS-9 is on BMWs and other cars, and yet, you have NEVER put it on a W203, how can you say they are no good? To jump to a conclusion that if it doesnt work on a Bimmer, it sure will not work on a MB is too much for me to handle too!! If you're looking for support, please go to: https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=36958 Someone did try it.


This will not happen because I would not recommend my customer to buy something that I am not comfortable with.

YES, they do, I'll even refund the shipping. I want ALL of my customers 10000% happy and I'll do ANYTHING within my control to make them happy.

Mach430

Harris,

It has nothing to do with the make/model car. There is ONE ever-present problem with ALL adjustable street coilovers. What makes a Mercedes different than any other car?

No matter which car you put it on, you still only get 1 spring. How can that 1 spring be matched to 9 different dampeners?

When we put an adjustable race suspension on our race car, we didn't simply play with the shocks until we had the optimum settings; you can't! You have to combine the various dampening levels with different spring rates until you find the optimum setup. We tested dozens of different spec springs with our dampeners until we were satisfied. If a PSS9/PCS owner would do the same, then they could achieve the perfect setup. But who is going to spend the additional thousands of dollars in time and parts to do so?

No matter how many dampening levels you have, only one can be the correct setting for the spring. In the post you linked, Shine mentions that the car handles awesomely on setting 9 (stiffest). Neither Brad nor I disagree here, but needing to leave the coilovers on the stiffest setting does 2 things. First, it makes it virtually useless to have 8 other adjustable options (settings 6 and under do not function properly with the spring). Second, it gives you a really-stiff ride. Some people won't mind, while others will.

A regular (only height adjustable) coilover, can provide a stiff, comfortable, or even soft ride with springs/dampeners perfectly matched from the factory.

Thanks,
Ben

JustinTRW

Ben and Brad,

I think the main reason that I was not sold when I drove Vadim's car was that there were way too many variables. It's hard to say what was helping and what wasn't. The other odd aspect I found about the H&R COs was that the body rolled more (with your sway bars) than a car with just Renntech springs. I took this to mean that the Renntech spring setup is stiffer than the H&R setup. The Renntech springs need some custom valved shocks. Would evosport consider buying me Koni yellows and figuring out how they should be revalved?

otoupalik

Justin,

Call me and we can chat.

I will tell you stiff does not equal better handling. In fact, we have proven this on the race cars. It is a common misperception.

We can talk more via phone!

Thanks

Brad

Mach430

We ran head to head with Renntech at Eurotunerfest last year at Willow Springs Raceway. Our car had H&R springs, stock brakes and at the time was 15hp less. Their car had 4 wheel brakes, performance upgrades, and Renntech springs. Our car, underpowered and underbraked, ran the same times as their car. While some will argue that this is due to the driver (Brad Otoupalik), Renntech had Danny McKeever, who runs his own school at Willow Springs and holds several track records. I'm not saying that one spring is far better than another, but these numbers would show that they are on a level playing field. And believe me, the coilovers handle much better than the springs. This make sense since H&R is one of the suppliers of Renntech's springs.

Thanks,
Ben

JustinTRW

Yes, I have to believe you there, as you guys deal with very stiff setups on the track. I will try to call you this week sometime, thanks...

nukblazi

Ouch, I guess I responded at the wrong time to get that snap out of you. I wasn't saying it was the only reason, but he was the course co/designer, an instructor, and an avid tuner. I think the changes he made influenced his times as well as tire pressure, tire temp., pavement temp., number of runs, etc.

At the last autoX I went from consistant 55s (3 out of 4 runs, 1st run was just navigating the course) to consistant 53s (3) after adjusting the my sways to the softer setting. I ran the same tire pressure all day because I wanted to test the different settings on my front sway. So, to a point, I do believe in the benefits of adjustable components where appropriate. Why else would you build three adjustments into your front sways and two into the rears you sell? Why do race drivers experiment with different springs and adjustable struts?

I hadn't read this thread in a while, but it seems like you all are a little too heated over this one. There is little point in arguing this hard over one brand over the other when all parties agree there is one inheirent flaw either way.


Disclaimer; I am new to adjustable suspensions and their effects, what I have stated is JUST MY OPINION and how I CHOOSE to write the post. Sorry if I am wrong in any way. And I should never have commented about not arguing.

otoupalik

LOL - I don't even remember the whole thread.

I agree - adjsutability is nice, to a point. Also, the range of adjustability is key, and if it is for the street or the track.

The Eib's are nice, we just like ours more! In truth, we would have never invested in making our own except we could not get Eib's for like 6 months and we were tired of waiting. We think Vadim improved on them though, so it was worth the wait.

Thanks

Brad

nukblazi

so back to the MANIA....


If I wanted to go nuts and get a true race spring for my coupe to match with adjustable struts, where should I start?

FYI, I spoke to Ben today about the sways, I promised myself I would get them soon. I am not three wheeling on the courses, just up driveways and it is annoying as I live in a hilly area. Going to NYC was tons of fun, I swear.

Oh!!! I am also looking for all of the available AMG suspension components and chassis stiffening pieces. Rear subframe bracing, x-brace, strut tower bars, and anything else to STOP THE FRICKEN CREAKEN....

Help please...

And, dead seriously, is there anyway to get rid of the sunroof?

nukblazi

You guys all sure as hell found this thread fine enough when you were bickering amongst yourselves but now I am asking a dead serious and Mod Mania related question, and you're all gone.

Where can I start to look for true linear race products for my coupe?


Other people (locally) seem to have suggestions, even loan me catalogs, and give me freebies, why don't my forum owners and product suppliers at least have the ability to point me in the right direction? Am I on the wrong forum?

Harris

Thomas, you have missed a point, very few people do AutoX in here. Especially use a MB to do AutoX. Thats why you did not get any sound advice. I would love to help out too, the city that I live doesnt have good AutoX tracks, thats why I dont have experience. However, I did some research on it, give me some time and hopefully I can be of some help.

nukblazi

On the premise of my driving at the autoxes I have been invited to some track events to demostrate myself and the MB, and I would sure as hell like to be able to say I was able to turn to mbworld for sound advice

Thanks Harris, one really good lead I got was fk-automotive.de. Now, I have a "at cost" supplier for them and we've sent a request in to see if they have products for my coupe as they have only 190E/300E and SLK products in the catalog we have. Bekkers as well seems to be very 190E/300E oriented.

Things these companies have listed for other MB models include bearing caps, swaybar endlinks, control arms, bushings, bracing, big bore kits, stroker kits, DTM Spliters, etc., etc., etc.

I know I am not the only one racing my coupe, kw230@csportcoupe does too or used to, and there has got to be others??? (stomping feet on ground) help me find parts Even if people are not racing, some are seeking performance gains or style enhancements so I can't be the only one sick of all the typical glorified OEM or sport only parts

Thanks again Harris. I know Brad has lots of experience racing and they were contemplating a GT Cup MB program, I was hoping they would be able to help as well since they seem to have/had an interest in racing MBs too.

C230AMG

How about trading in for a C230 coupe w/o the sunroof? Can't have the cake and eat it too!

nukblazi

Ok, I thought about posting a funny pic to signify what I thought when I read your post but....

I broke in my coupe, it is my coupe. It is the M111 powered '02. It has been relatively problem free and I don't want someone else's "fixed" lemon case.

Also, the CF panel and CF hood w/AMG rear bumper with black insert plus the flat black rims with black DTM spliters on a Silver car would look awesome in my opinion and is the way I want to go lookwise.

Thanks for the thought though.

nukblazi

Here is what the DTM diffuser looks like FK-Automotive has one for the SLK, now I just need a set for the cl203

otoupalik

Sorry Nuk, I have been working on one of the world challenge cars!

Ok, for true race springs you are screwed. You would need to convert the strut assembly to accept either a 60mm, 2.25" or 2.5" linear spring. Or you would need a real coil-over. Now, for the later, I can give you a JRZ for about $5K. I know you don't want that, so the only other option is to search for the needle in the hay stack and find a gruppe A or N spring that is linear and has the proper shape. There are a few, but they are near impossible to find. You could also have some billet adapters made for upper and lower spring perches to accept the 60mm race spring (which is the world standard, while 2.5" is the US standard).

As for strut tower bars, Carlsson has one for the car. We are also going to be bringing in a large amount of REAL AMG performacne parts form Germany soon. Talk to Ben.

As for all the trick parts, it is really a custom deal. If you were here, we could make them all for you. However, ther is not enough qty. desired to make them unless we have a customer here that wants to give us his car and commission us to make the trick ****.

Thanks

Brad

nukblazi

So what your saying is... I am screwed...

So, for now, I can get the cup-kit or a coilover and give the stock assemble to a custom shop to have housings made for the 2.5s...

I was given a quote for Konigsports at 1/5th the cost of the JRZs you quoted me. In exchange for seat time in my car, the guy will give them to me for 500. Ever heard of them? Opinions? I value yours which is why I ask.

There are a few? Name names brother so if someone searches they will find it here, and I can call Ben and ask.

Real AMG parts? Can someone email me a parts list? I wouldn't repost it if I am asked not to.

Carlsson? One (1) Front Bar(?), or bars? Do they bolt to the ground bolt like the crappy other one(s) available? Or do they require drilling? Is it safe?

I want to be there, but I am here, and I am not going to be there, until you guys realize you need website help So, I will have to take your advice from the forum and seek futher local support. Are you guys making the trick ***** for your car or outsourcing? Can you hook me up with a contact? Can any of the trick ***** from your project migrate to my own?

In plain english, for the benefit of the forum, what can I do? Who can I look to? Who should I trust? Which steps should I take first?

Edit, I forgot to say thank you. So thank you. Get to the East coast so you can drive my little piggie...

otoupalik

Nik,

I would make 60mm perches not 2.5, but that is your call.

I have NEVER heard of Konigsports??? Link? Info? Be very leary of coil-ovres and shocks from off brands. I can tell you horror stories all day long! They may be great, I dunno, but usually any suspension worth it's salt I know about as it is on a race car somehwere.

As for Gruppe A or N springs, you would need to get EXACT deminsions and spring rates that you want, then call Eibach and H&R (evosport is a stocking distributor of H&R) and see what is available.

COntact Ben and he will contact Germany to see what parts he can get from the C32 COUPE they made in Germany.

The Carlsson is only a front I beleive. You can have a rear made though I bet. I have not seen one yet, so I am not sure where they bolt. Sorry.

We make everything in house - there is no contact to give you. We would need to have a car here to do that.

I cannto give you a list of steps as I do not know anyone out there that could help you. You are trying to do somehting that no one else is doing and that is a hard and costly road. If you were here, we could do it. I am sure RENNtech could do it. Donnie at MBAutoworks can likely do it as well. Those are the only 3 places I know of.

Thanks

Brad

nukblazi

fk-automotive.de

The catalog I have contains stuff for the SLK and we have contacted them looking for stuff for the coupe.

The Konigsports are, from what I understand, big with the highend audi's and is a racing application. Spring can be changed, and they are a 60mm application. I don't know, still researching.

Friday, the 11th, I got my first trophy 3rd in E Stock!!!

1st was a race prepped Mini S, second was a race prepped GSR. I was two seconds off their times in the first heat. My last run in the first heat, I got the tire pressures right, and scored a time good for 2nd, but someone else went off course and I had to re-run, and on the re-run, I experienced brake fade for the first time. It rained the whole second heat. In the rain I feel back two seconds so I couldn't beat em... arg...

Anywho, I know it is going to be costly, so it just gives me more time to complete this round of real tuning... we know I need the time

but if I am doing this well with this car at this entry level, against high end cars, I just want to see what happens with things done right..

I'll continue to post info on what I learn, if you have any ideas for what could help, and make the largest improvements first... please let me know.

Thanks again Brad...