Outland

Went for a spin tonight to pickup a replacement signal lense for the broken one on my Honda tonite, on the way home I stopped by library....checking out the latest Car and Driver(september issue) and I remember Kleeman stating in the EBAY ad for the C23K that the car would be in the September Car and Driver! Hurriedly, I flipped thru, anxious to see how well the car did against the other tuner cars...and honestly not expecting a class leading performance against cars with 15K of mods...

Finally! I find the C23K...dead last in RWD cars. I could live with that, given the nosebleeding performance of some the leading cars...BUT, the performance numbers for the Kleeman car were really weak...an in some cases, worse than the numbers for a stock C230 Kompressor Can this be true I ask? 7.38 seconds to 60? MT's C230 did it in 7.1secs! 15.4 in the quarter mile? MT's car did it in 15.3! Even the writer noted that these numbers were only a half second faster than a stock '03 1.8L C230.

So, is this all that a car with a claimed 58HP increase can do?! I find those power ratings dubious, given the performance of this car. And it had a lightweight flywheel and repmapped ECU! Having nearly bought a Kleeman kit right before the ASP Alloy pulley fiasco started, I find this article rather sobering. Why mod the engine if its only gonna get you a lighter wallet!

Frankly, I would have expected mid 6's and mid 14s for nearly 60 extra HP.

Ok, so, anyone got any explanations? Kleeman? Please tell us this is a massive typo I did find some things rather curious about the article, for instance, it stated that the Kleeman pulley only adds 2.5lbs of boost(weak!). I've seen many posts here saying the boost goes from 5 or 6lbs to 10 or 11. Any takers? Another wierd item, the Kleeman car seemed extremely heavy, I forget the wieght numbers, but I think it was 300lbs over what a stock coupe normally tips the scales at! Lastly, at one point they say the mods cost 2100 bucks, but then they list the price with mods at over 40K! WTF?

Well, I'm off to got put my new cheesy fake carbon fiber turn signals on(hey, they were cheaper than just a stock lense!) and ponder wether a pulley is ever going on my car

nukblazi

Not sure either way on the article related stuff, but today I installed the same LTW Flywheel that was in that car.

Both myself, and my friend who has spent much time in my car (former live in GF) were just like WHOA... It made a huge difference "seat of the pants" acceleration.

Could the lack of the lurching forward feeling induce this, I guess it could, but everything is SO much smoothers and power delivery is instant.

The hills around here I used to have to do in second to not bog and sputter up I did in third with no issues. 0-60 not effected by this, unlikely in my opinion.

AndrewK

I would not pay attention to magazines. For the 02 coupe MT got 7.2, RT 7.6, Edmunds 7.8 I think it depends more on the skill of the person driving the car (when its a manny). Also it was pointed out in one review of a WRX that its time depended on how much you were willing to beat it up. If you were willing to do abusive launches (popping the clutch at 5K) its 5.4, but a normal launch gets you 6+. So there is no consistency in the numbers, especially with different testers.

Anyway I guess the point it not to get bogged down in the numbers. Almost all of the forum members here who have a pulley say that it makes a big difference in feel, and thats good enough for me. (and better than any magazine number)

Outland

Have you done any dynos since you started? Any trips to the drag strip?

I'm really bummed after reading that article tonight. Methinks something is fishy here....

Buellwinkle

The funny part about that article is you can't buy most ofl the stuff on that Kleemann special, not even a pulley. So what's the point? Then when you consider that he once claimed 238HP with just the pulley, then adds all sorts of stuff like headers, chip, flywheel, and stickers just to get to 250HP (actually in another part of the article it shows 245HP, a lot of dough for 7-12HP. And the insult to injury is to show up with a car that's comperable to a stock C230k on the track. They should of let me enter my car, 14.6 in the 1/4 mile. Did you notice there was one area where the little coupe did well, braking with the AMG's.

Jens C320

If that is the same article that has the Focus SVT, VW GTI, etc then don't take the numbers very seriously. On several other car forums the article has been bashed for times that are WAY off! For example, they said the VW GTI couldn't break 120mph...just look at the horsepower and then tell me how that is possible.

nukblazi

I did a basline and posted it here. I installed the flywheel today, and I will Dyno as soon as all issues are resolved. Installing these things is fun. However, the baseline was 169.1hp/178t at the wheels.

I wish I had a camera, she felt the dif in the car, and asked me to chill out. When I told her what I installed, she relaxed. She and I were very impressed initially. I've only done 15.5 miles of testing, more will come.

Mag articles are fishy, yes.

EDIT- 1/4 mile... I don't live my life 10 seconds at a time. I did try to accomadate other members that requested stock and later 1/4 times. It rained Friday night, and tonight. This friday is my next shot, let's hope it doesn't rain.

Buellwinkle

The ultimate measurement of these performance mods is not what it can do on a dyno but what it does in the street. He can quote 400 HP for the coupe but if they only gain over stock is 3-4/10th of a second ET then they have failed. Nuk, just hope you have better luck than Kleemann with your mods. I've had the same problem. I started with a pulley and it was wow, then I figured that if I do more I'll get more and boy was I wrong. That's why I'm back to just a pulley and ITG airfilter. Sure you can make excuses and say things like you don't live 1/4 mile at a time but why are you doing the mods if performance wasn't important to you?

tifosiv122

In most cars there is a "bang for your buck mod" while the rest do almost nothing in comparison. Aside from Nitrous, my last car had plenty of mods, but the $350 Y-Pipe was the best bang for my buck. The exhuast, intake, etc...were just a waste, I saw almost no gains.

Erik

CRB

I want my Car and Driver!!

nukblazi

Buell,

You can be strangely confrontational and combative. I was mocking the movie and people that think drag racing is the only measurement of performance.

Why despite how clearly strange all the numbers and how Jen said other cars from the article may have been mis-written.

I let two people with race car experience drive the car today. They both had driven it stock. Both were extremely impressed. "Whoa yeah, this is a racing clutch. You'll never destroy this." Both guys had a lot of fun. He also called it the "Baby E55". Now, we know that is a stretch. When I asked what he meant, he siad, "It just feels like it is dying for more horsepower and itching to be driven." Hey, I agree.

The mod itself isn't one for cry baby's. You know damn well I am interested in performance. Anyone else gut their coupe lately taking measurements for a full roll cage?

The mod is good for 1/4 mile. And I sure as hell am not nor would I ever make excuses. I would not believe those numbers. Today I was winding through the gears so much faster. 0-60 and 1/4 should be significantly improved. Road feel around town is somewhat cumbersome. Get the RPMs up and it is amazing.

I mean, did you even ask Brandon who drove the cars for those times or how long they had to become aquainted with the vehicle?

Mike T.

Just waiting for the explanation of that road test result....

Zeppelin

Those tests were done in 100 plus temps, plus 1500ft elevation and who knows what the condition of the track was like. All the times were low. Bottom line is the Kleeman car was well behind the others in acceleration.

nukblazi

I posted this on csportcoupe too, but hopefully this makes some sense to you all...


I love you guys but it is almost as if you read the article and intepreted what you wanted not even looking at the influencial attributes.

I think with comparable investments in motor and trans work as the cars that started with similar HP, more race oriented suspension like the other vehicles, things would have much different. Personally, considering the investment and the goals of the tuning that went into the KLEEMANN coupe compared to the others, this should be exactly what we would have expected.

Buell mentioned the Lysholm, of course the times would have much better.

C230K

DRIVEABLILTIY WE WERE NUMBER 1 and that is were we spend most of our time driving (like to work)not racing.

Brandon @ Kleemann

What can I say?

The driver of our car was Larry Webster- editor and driver extrdinaire for C&D. I dont think he had any issues launching the car, getting used ot it etc, although I cant speak for him nor do I dare make any assumptions. In my opinion he did a fine job with no compliants from me. The concensus seemed to have been a uniform "its a helluva lot better than stock", "if I had to choose one to drive back to Michigan it would be the Benz" and so on. Did every one miss the fact that we got the only 5 star driveability rating?

The data system they use is a RaceLogic GPS based system- it seems to be pretty accurate as many F1, Indy etc teams use it. Still, if other cars seem to be off who knows?

Read the data folks- the Coupe is a corpulent little pig at 3474 lbs with full fuel- over 3600 lbs with a driver. 250 hp and similar tq will never accelerate this car in the 14's, do the math, its not happening. BTW its not 311 lbs heavier than a normal Coupe, its 311 lbs heavier than an EVO 8- READ the article.

Its not just accel times people- look at the road course times- we beat a 342hp Acura RSX (which weighs 635 lbs less) by 3.6 seconds- doesnt this say anything? Look at the GTI- nearly the same power, almost 1,000 lbs lighter yet only a few tenths here and there? The coupe looks good when you compare it to the field.

What we chose to put on the car was picked as "reasonable" products as feedback to us from customers. The $40,212 price INCLUDES the car for Petes sake- We can make a $12,000 engine modifcation but would anyone want it? We did the entire car for what some spent on the engine (illuminated door sills included).

As for the boost increase- I think people are confusing BAR with PSI. The coupe makes .50 BAR stock (7.3 psi), with pulley it makes 9.8 PSI or .66 BAR. These numbers are post-intercooler, who knows what they measure before it and it doesnt matter in any case.

You cant make a silk purse from a sows ear for any thing less than a bucket full of money.

Brandon @ Kleemann

Car and Driver Television will air this Sat and Sun with this feature (4 cylinder tuner) as part of the program. C&D TV is on TNN, check your local listings for times.

DaBeze

Thanks for the feedback Brandon

nukblazi

Brandon,


What can you say? I think you said it...

Plain and simple, if we actually read the article instead of browsing the results (take some time on the can to relax), we would have answered our own questions.

It took me 1/4 of my lunch break to answer the questions for myself.


I dyno the flywheel indepenently tomorrow... woot woot!

Buellwinkle

That would do it, specially if they did a few warm up runs to get used to the car and the IC was heat soaked. Despite what Brandon says, Andrew of GIAC has done mid to high 14's in his pulleyed coupe without programming at Carlsbad Raceway and also on his dyno (which has a 1/4 mile feature) with his car and mine. Also Renncpe Randy did mid 14's in his car at a dragstrip in Florida.

nukblazi

Renncpe (Randy) had a different final drive ratio and, Buell, unfortunately, you reputation for being wrong or misleading has to be brought to light... Sorry.

Do you have print outs and a "accuracy" or real world time slip for those 14's?


Edit-- I'll also go to Englishtown Raceeway Park for 1/4 times on Wed. if it isn't raining.



Thomas

Buellwinkle

Did you get all the parts installed? How did you do on the dyno? If you get a good launch with the pulley I expect to see high 14's from you. With the clutch and maybe an ITG airfilter I would expect mid 14's and nothing less. Have you drag raced before? I'm terrible at it, got mid 16's with my car.

tifosiv122

Ouch...but thats not too bad...last time I went to the track my friend basically forgot how to shift...burned the clutch through 3 gears...pulled a 20 and the car smelled for hours after.

Erik

nukblazi

Read my post with install pics...

Dyno tomorrow, Sat.
1/4 on Wed.

No, I've never dragged amanual before. Only a auto w/hurst. It is the lamest 12/14/15 seconds to me... I look forward to the turn off into the pit road.

I can rev drop, and I can speed shift the new clutch already. I am still working on the timing, hopefully I will have it down by Wed. I'll scan and post tomorrows dyno and time slips from Wed. too. But that'll be one week of street driving, mostly in the rain so far. The new clutch is very different.

Buellwinkle

The mistake I made besides poor reaction time is I dropped the clutch from 3K and the tires spun, put on a good show while a beat up old honda beat me. It is way easier in an auto.