Scylas

hm.. im bored

Buellwinkle

Sorry about that. I saw them both on EvoSport.com website and I thought they were both made by the same company. But the BMW ones are made by EvoSport and the MB ones are made by Kleemann.

MARK CUMMINS

AND so WHY isnt this thread ROLLING BRABUS AND RENNTECH
over the fire pit ?KLEEMANN HAS A GREAT PRODUCT!!! ALSO did you think of not only the cost of making a pulley as in the block of alloy for the pulley BUT THE COST OF HOURS (SEVERAL) called R/D and the cost of making a alloy pulley to find out it did leak ?
and to justify the cost well THATS NOT OUR BIZ! since we did NOT BUILD A PROTOTYPE OR test the product to find out the ALL alloy pulley did NOT work...CAN YOU SAY LIABILITY INSURANCE?
I dont want to buy a motor cause I bought a NO NAME PIECE!
(without have been TESTED) YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

JUST MY .02

KJ-TypeR

C'mon Mark, settle down. No need to yell at everyone ok? =)

I hear both sides.

Kleeman has to recover his costs from R&D etc. and feels that since the pulley makes big power, it should cost big bucks.

Buellwinkle knows that pulley's in other markets (Say Unorthodox, AEM, ASP etc.) make pulley's that are of GREAT quality, but cost much less. That is why he feels that it's a ripoff to pay $900 US for a pulley.

I honestly think that $900 US is ridiculous. Sure, it makes big gains, but the price is way too high. It can be compared to charging $1000 for a MANUAL boost controller because it can make 100 hp. Ridiculous.

On the other hand, I think Kleeman is a pretty stand up guy and is pretty up front with his information. I am definitely not questioning his integrity, I'm just stating my opinion on the price of this particular product.

Buellwinkle

Mark,

Did you put the Kleeman pulley rings on your car yet? Any feedback? Heck that's what I'm looking for, the first few pioneers to test out the stuff. Evosports said the alloy pulley is 10hp more than the rings so it will be interesting to see if that's true, they got the dyno. Are they going to reprogram the Upsolute mod to take advantage of the extra boost? The things you do for your wife's car. I hope she appreciates it.

MARK CUMMINS

WHOs Yelling? I WAS MAKING A POINT! AS I Do know the long hours of R/d work can be very painful $LOSS OF INCOME.
I owned a porsche/mb repair shop for over 10years and was a a porsche tech for 14 years so YES i have done a couple of PROJECTS and lost THOUSANDS of dollars cause the results were NOT there BUT thats the name of the GAME (RIGHT)?also I had a friend custom make several pieces for me c and c write the program build the piece and then test the piece win or lose you still have to PAY your BILLS so Im not yelling and Im not saying that 900.00 is fair cause I dont know KLEEMANNs biz nor do I want to Im saying the cost of biz is not cheap so if you want to try somthing else (other than tested pieces ) GO FOR IT!!
I just dont want to fry a motor cause someone did NOT do there HOMEWORK!!

BTW thats why Im testing the products on a dyno for the real PROOF..NO BLUE SKY NUMBERS

And yes I will post the numbers on the ring and pulley
THANKS to EVOSPORT for the DYNO TIME (TIME IS MONEY)

And yes UPSOLUTE will reprogram the M.E. after the final pulley is done to see if there is a difference?

AndrewK

How about we keep the discussion on a reasonable level, if you dont like the price, then dont buy one. I personally dont see a problem with paying $900. Where else are you going to find 25-30 hp for Mercedes for $900? Just because you can buy a similar product for BMW or Honda doesnt mean the $900 is a ripoff. Mercedes tuning seems to be a pretty small market compared to BMW or Honda, so I would expect to pay more for a Mercedes tuning product because of r&d costs.

-Andrew

hphan

Mark, he is referring to internet etiquette where all caps
are considered yelling. Since we cant hear each other speak,
that is what has evolved as the internet standard of yelling.
Personally, when I want to emphasize something I mark the
words with either *this* or _that_ to show emphasis. Just FYI.

Buellwinkle

Mark,

Good to see you're not yelling anymore. The forum is an exchange of ideas, if we all had the same opinion then the forum would be boring and useless. I don't think the $599 for the rings are that terrible but the $899 irks me. Why? I don't know, heck the CD changer is that much and chroming my wheels is that much and neither made my car go faster. I undestand that it does cost the more to make the pulley over the ring but is it worth the $300 extra? The reason I'm interested in the results of the Upsolut mods is because many folks on an SLK230 forum complained of a hole or dead spot in the 3000rpm range after installing a pulley kit because of a too lean condition. It seems to go away if you do one of two things, get a smaller pulley or put in a GIAC chip. I don't know if you'll get this because you already Upsoluted or if this problem is the same on the Coupe. Anyone else getting just the pulley kit?

gab

ok it costs $$ for R/D effort. But wait, where is the dyno graph for the new alloy pulley?

Buellwinkle

I don't think they own a dyno (LOL).

Buellwinkle

Am I beating a dead horse yet?

AndrewK

If I recall correctly, the lean condition was only present in the older (98-00) 230K engine with older style fuel injection. I think the problem has been resolved with the new software used in the current generation 230K engine. Buellwinkle - maybe they are using evosport's dyno in the US because they are mainly a Danish (correct, Kleemann?) company and dont have the resources to invest in a dyno for a small US operation.

Lynn

The last time Kleemann posted dyno results they were using a dyno in Denver. Hmm, Sounds like a movie title, "Dynoed in Denver".

The lean condition in earlier 230 kompressor engines was caused by the mass airflow sensor being located near the intercooler outlet where the air flow is turbulent. It is now close to the throttle body.

Spyke

To me it said if you can't hold a .0005" tolerance you may have a problem, I didn't get any inference of someone being a moron. But what really confuses me is why a pulley ring must have fasteners that throw the balance off? People who build high performance engines are typically quite **** about all reciprocating/rotating parts being balanced to a very close tolerance.

Buellwinkle

Exactly, how does the ring attach to the pulley. I've heard on the SLK forum of other pulley vendors that when they do a ring it's welded on and balanced and shipped as a complete replacement. That would seem like a solid solution. Is the Kleemann ring screwed on, welded on, snaps in, velcro? Does it permanently alter the factory pulley (in case you need to go back to stock quickly)?

Mark, since you bought the rings, how do these attached to the pulley or do you get a new pulley with the ring already attached? Do you get rings for the alternator pulley too? Do you have pics?

Brandon @ Kleemann

I have endured months of the CL203 banter- now its just too much.

KLEEMANN is based in Denmark- as such we run a smaller operation here in the USA- does not having a dyno at our USA facility somehow lessen what we do? We use an independent dyno here so we dont have the expense of the machine- which I would pass on to you in the form of higher pulley prices ;-) . Not to mention the possibilty of somehow skewing the results- you just cant win with some people. Let me follow the line you present by implying that not having our own dyno in the USA is somehow indicative of a shabby operation by asking the question of why you have not bought a real car. I mean really- you have the lowest rung of MBZ there is. Follow my logic here- you have not forked up $100K to buy a serious performance car so why should I care what you want/say/do. See how ridiculous this line of reasoning is??? Let me pre-empt the inevitable landslide of email by stating that I OWN ONE.

The ring uses internally wrenching fasteners- allen head cap screws- to exert the clamping force required to keep the ring stationary on the crank. Use a small amount of math to calculate that the force exterted on the pulley is in excess of 3 tons- over 80 hp required to move the ring, half of what is being asked of it. You can take the ring off and the original pulley will be as new.

It is obvious that price is the major concern- followed directly by reliability. No one wants to spend too much- yet they want a reliable solution- just what any one would want. So we offer it up- to what? Incessant ridicule/second guessing/and gereral negative feedback. The ring use fasteners located at 45 deg intervals- there is no inherent imbalance with this layout. Welding a wide bead in an unconsistent manner would require balancing after the fact- See how what appears to be "sound practice" can be seen as shabby???

Profanity is the crutch of the verbally crippled- remember this when you post the wise cracks.

dj-po

I went poopy












.

gab

i didnt mean that you had to have a dyno machine in order to be a respectable tuner.

many of us still want to see a dyno plot from the alloy pulley. You definitely have access to a dyno right?

Mach430

In regards to pricing, let's use the $899 kit as an example. For $899, you can get approximately a 25% gain in power. Are you aware of any other gains that even come close for $899?

In respect to other Mercedes tuners; Kleemann prices are the lowest, yet their products are the best. Granted, not everyone has $899 to spend in upgrading their car. But those who do are getting one heck of a bargain. There are mufflers that cost twice this amount, yet what do they yield, 4HP? Same goes for so many other possible mod's that can be done. The Kleemann Pulley kit is the best bang for the buck under $3,000 (if not higher).

Brandon @ Kleemann

Let me be the first to admit that I have seriously stepped outside my bounds here by using the "crutch"- the moderators will have my hide. I have always tried to be honest and forth coming with my knowledge and information- take it or leave it.

mdp c230k

Has anyone had something C'n Ced lately? It aint cheap! In small quantities, less than 50 at a shot, it would cost about $125 to $160 per pulley just to machine them here in L.A.. Add on the price of 10 lbs of a block of 6061 aluminum to mill from, $40-50. Have the unit balanced dynamically, $50. Go through all the R&D costs to design the pulley ($KKKKK/number sold). Front the money to get them made and have them in stock. And most of all, put up with the crap that you all are giving an honest businessman trying to survive while giving you an honest product that works as claimed. $900 aint a bad deal after all, is it? Most manufacturers more than triple their money on stuff like this! Buy one, shut up and smile as you blow past that BMW.

WyattEarp

Personally I think $900 is a great deal considering the previously mentioned cost/performance ratio.

On a separate subject I guess I don't have to be around for threads to get ugly.

raymond

Yes, it is sad to see posts get ugly, but I do see both sides of the coin. THere may be many justifications for price by Kleemann, but at the end of the day there's a big performance increase for $900.

Buellwinkle sees just a pulley for $900. I think Buellwinkle must be an accountant, and Kleemann an engineer

Buellwinkle

Then how many more horsepower do you get from the pulley vs. the rings? Are they the same identical diameter?