W203 Kompressor Cranking, But not Starting??
03-30-2018, 07:42 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
W203 Kompressor Cranking, But not Starting??
So I tried turning the car on one day and apparently the battery died. So I tried jump-starting the car, and the car wouldn’t start, it would just crank. I’ve researched almost everywhere and it said my timing slipped... so how do I check?
The above is a link showing what type of sound the car makes. it would keep cranking, and not start!
During the start, you could hear a small pop sound two times. And when I start it again, the pop sound again from the air filter box. Could that mean anything?
The above is a link showing what type of sound the car makes. it would keep cranking, and not start!
During the start, you could hear a small pop sound two times. And when I start it again, the pop sound again from the air filter box. Could that mean anything?
03-30-2018, 09:12 PM
#2
Super Member
Okay, +1,000 points for uploading a video and doing a search. :-)
But, -100 points for poor research. :-(
I don't know where/why you think that it's because the timing slipped.
In fact, there are many other "more likely" problems.
Do you have a scanner that specifically covers MB? Like an iCarSoft MB scanner? A code may be "pending".
It could be:
Crank position sensor
Cam position sensor (either)
Fuel pump (one or both of them, and/or the float/tubing)
clogged fuel filter
To check the timing and timing chain, do a search for: M271 timing chain.
Basically, you want to see how-well/how-close the marks on the camshafts align so that they are both pointing straight up at the same time.
Good Luck!
But, -100 points for poor research. :-(
I don't know where/why you think that it's because the timing slipped.
In fact, there are many other "more likely" problems.
Do you have a scanner that specifically covers MB? Like an iCarSoft MB scanner? A code may be "pending".
It could be:
Crank position sensor
Cam position sensor (either)
Fuel pump (one or both of them, and/or the float/tubing)
clogged fuel filter
To check the timing and timing chain, do a search for: M271 timing chain.
Basically, you want to see how-well/how-close the marks on the camshafts align so that they are both pointing straight up at the same time.
Good Luck!
03-30-2018, 09:18 PM
#3
Super Member
FYI, from:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...e-apart-7.html
Below, you can clearly see the marks on the cam adjusters, and how they should align:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...e-apart-7.html
Below, you can clearly see the marks on the cam adjusters, and how they should align:
03-30-2018, 09:22 PM
#4
Super Member
I also just remembered, many people have said, and have experienced, that MB cars do not like to start with a weak battery -- "you need a fully charged and good battery".
Fwiw, in the above picture with the red arrow, that isn't relevant to your question.
Fwiw, in the above picture with the red arrow, that isn't relevant to your question.
03-31-2018, 11:04 AM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
That's another thing.
Before this occurred, I filled up gas one day at a gas station, right after turning the car on, it started to rough idle, sort of felt like it was misfiring, but only under 20km/h or something.
In idle, the car would feel like it was about to shut off, but once you rev'ed over a certain number (like 1,000rpm's), the car would seem fine.
Even if I drove it, it would feel like nothing is wrong, but once the speed drops under 20km/h, the car would rough idle and one time it even shut off at a red light.
I scanned it and I got a camshaft code and never got the chance to replace it because it was being shipped from Pelican Parts. Before even getting to replace it, one day the car just kept cranking and cranking, we took it to our local mechanic (not a specialist mercedes mechanic and he's the one who told us that the timing slipped or something). He said we'd have to replace the engine and it would all cost around $1,500. But I don't know if he's correct about the timing slipping...
Before this occurred, I filled up gas one day at a gas station, right after turning the car on, it started to rough idle, sort of felt like it was misfiring, but only under 20km/h or something.
In idle, the car would feel like it was about to shut off, but once you rev'ed over a certain number (like 1,000rpm's), the car would seem fine.
Even if I drove it, it would feel like nothing is wrong, but once the speed drops under 20km/h, the car would rough idle and one time it even shut off at a red light.
I scanned it and I got a camshaft code and never got the chance to replace it because it was being shipped from Pelican Parts. Before even getting to replace it, one day the car just kept cranking and cranking, we took it to our local mechanic (not a specialist mercedes mechanic and he's the one who told us that the timing slipped or something). He said we'd have to replace the engine and it would all cost around $1,500. But I don't know if he's correct about the timing slipping...
03-31-2018, 06:32 PM
#6
Super Member
just kept cranking and cranking, we took it to our local mechanic (not a specialist mercedes mechanic and he's the one who told us that the timing slipped or something). He said we'd have to replace the engine and it would all cost around $1,500. But I don't know if he's correct about the timing slipping...
**BUT**, these engines have a known, and very well documented, problem with an under-designed timing chain. The timing chain will break ~~80K-150K miles. There are MANY factors with ANY mechanical part failing.
So, putting in an used M271 engine is like playing Russian Roulette!
Do you feel lucky punk, well do you?
The timing chain will first stretch, noticeably, before it breaks. Imho, another sure sign of a mega POS design.
If caught before any more damage, then the timing chain can be replaced.
However, if timing chain stretches, the timing chain may also slip and ruin the cam and crank gears.
In that case, that's a very expensive fix for an engine. But, the pistons and valves often are fine. Still, is it worth the additional ?$3K? in parts and extra time to just replace those gears? So, maybe a $5K+ repair, if done by an independent.
If the timing chain breaks, there is likely a 99.999% chance that the engine is junk.
The pistons will hit the valves. There's also a good chance that metal pieces will scratch the cylinder walls. So, maybe $13K+ to repair that engine and block? And, *I* wouldn't trust the cylinder wall refinishing any more than I could throw the whole car. MB uses a very very high tech, and high precision, method to finish the cylinder walls.
I think that someone had the timing chain break when they were starting the engine, and they got super lucky in not damaging the valves/pistons. However, since they never posted detailed pictures of the pistons and valves, I don't 100% buy it. My guess is that the engine had some damage, but ran "good enough" for the short term.
The above is why I say to replace the timing chain every 75K miles. Imho, for the cost of doing that, it's worth it to have an otherwise rather solid engine (to be able to fix/replace things), for 10+ more years.
Btw, the supercharger oil should also be replaced every 10 years or 100K miles.
Otherwise, imho, people are looking at replacing "not unexpected" wear items. Although, items(pulleys, alternators, etc) may not last as long as something like a Camry, Fusion, or Accord.
That's also assuming an up to date radiator (2004 or newer) and cam adjuster wire extenders.
Good Luck.
03-31-2018, 06:34 PM
#7
Super Member
Make the above M71, "M271". Yea, I know there's an "edit" button. But, this POS forum software doesn't play very nice with my super locked downed Firefox browser and extensions.
Btw, the reason I say that putting in an used M271 engine is risky, is because of the timing chain issue.
*If* the mechanic first replaces the timing chain on used engine before he installs it in the car, then imho that engine is likely fine.
Btw, the reason I say that putting in an used M271 engine is risky, is because of the timing chain issue.
*If* the mechanic first replaces the timing chain on used engine before he installs it in the car, then imho that engine is likely fine.
Last edited by RedGray; 03-31-2018 at 07:07 PM.
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03-31-2018, 07:28 PM
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I've read around about the M271 timing chain, lot's of people complaining about it haha and I don't want to take a chance replacing the engine. Initially I got the car at $4,500 at 146,000. The car now has 215,000km-ish and all we've ever done to it is oil change and breaks. Other than replacing the throttle body after a known limp mode, which was fixed months ago. I decided to skip the trip back to the mechanic and avoid replacing the engine.
I took a look at the timing chain today, and it's not broken, BUT it is a little loose. I'm not sure if it's supposed to feel tight, but I could put my finger under it and "jiggle" the chain, just a slight bit. I could take pictures tomorrow.
I have no clue about the "supercharger oil", never done that before.
Anyways, I've decided not to play russian roulette with this car LOL
I was just thinking if the mechanic was correct about the timing slipping.
Other than that, I'm probably gonna part the car out then scrap it or just sell it and someone else could do whatever they want to it.
Before I do this, what first checks could I do to check or diagnose the car? I don't have a Mercedes scanner first of all. But I'm assuming our local mechanic did the checks?? So the timing actually screwed up or he's just assuming... Not quite sure!
I took a look at the timing chain today, and it's not broken, BUT it is a little loose. I'm not sure if it's supposed to feel tight, but I could put my finger under it and "jiggle" the chain, just a slight bit. I could take pictures tomorrow.
I have no clue about the "supercharger oil", never done that before.
Anyways, I've decided not to play russian roulette with this car LOL
I was just thinking if the mechanic was correct about the timing slipping.
Other than that, I'm probably gonna part the car out then scrap it or just sell it and someone else could do whatever they want to it.
Before I do this, what first checks could I do to check or diagnose the car? I don't have a Mercedes scanner first of all. But I'm assuming our local mechanic did the checks?? So the timing actually screwed up or he's just assuming... Not quite sure!
03-31-2018, 07:34 PM
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I'm also thinking!
Could the situation before the car stopped running made this problem occur?
Like I said before, the car pulled a couple codes, one being the Camshaft Position Sensor, in which the car idled roughly, only under certain RPM. Once you start driving, the car feels like normal... and back to idle... the car idles roughly.
And I drove the car like this for maybe a week or two since the part was still being shipped.
Would this have caused an issue with the timing?
Because literally one day the car was running (rough idling too) and the next day, the car battery died, we jump started and it would keep cranking.
Am I out of luck with this car or I can do a couple checks in order to justify the timing has actually slipped?
Could the situation before the car stopped running made this problem occur?
Like I said before, the car pulled a couple codes, one being the Camshaft Position Sensor, in which the car idled roughly, only under certain RPM. Once you start driving, the car feels like normal... and back to idle... the car idles roughly.
And I drove the car like this for maybe a week or two since the part was still being shipped.
Would this have caused an issue with the timing?
Because literally one day the car was running (rough idling too) and the next day, the car battery died, we jump started and it would keep cranking.
Am I out of luck with this car or I can do a couple checks in order to justify the timing has actually slipped?
03-31-2018, 07:55 PM
#10
Super Member
As I understand, a bad cam sensor will prevent the engine from starting. And, it should!
But, the cam sensor may be flagged as "bad", because the cam is too much out of phase/alignment with the crankshaft - because of a very stretched timing chain.
If the timing chain was slipping, then the gears would have broken teeth. It would be obvious when looking at the gears.
The timing chain should not be loose. There's a timing chain adjuster, on the side of the engine blocked by the alternator. That keeps the timing chain tight, for as long as it can. There's a good amount of travel/adjustment in that timing chain adjuster - another sure sign that they knew that he design was a POS. So, if the timing chain is loose, then I wouldn't trust running the engine. It would be just a matter of time before the timing chain slipped or broke.
Fwiw, If the timing chain is that loose, you likely used good oil, did regular oil changes, and didn't beat on the engine.
From what I understand, and read, these timing chains will also break before they use up all of the timing chain adjustment. Plus, from a "Materials Engineering" (part of many Mechanical Engineer's background/knowledge) point-of-view, that's what *I* would except.
As a fun FYI, on the MB service DVD, they have a picture of the M271 engine with a dual timing chain (like the previous engine had).
But, they likely found that they could use a cheaper single row timing chain (saving them ?$10?), and have the engine typically last over 100K miles. Like your engine, it depends a lot on how well the engine is maintained, how the car is driven, the type of miles, and the ever-present "luck" of where that strength of that specific timing chain lands on the manufacturing tolerance trend (the strength/tolerance/etc of metal/etc varies over time for any real life manufacturing ).
But, the cam sensor may be flagged as "bad", because the cam is too much out of phase/alignment with the crankshaft - because of a very stretched timing chain.
If the timing chain was slipping, then the gears would have broken teeth. It would be obvious when looking at the gears.
The timing chain should not be loose. There's a timing chain adjuster, on the side of the engine blocked by the alternator. That keeps the timing chain tight, for as long as it can. There's a good amount of travel/adjustment in that timing chain adjuster - another sure sign that they knew that he design was a POS
. So, if the timing chain is loose, then I wouldn't trust running the engine. It would be just a matter of time before the timing chain slipped or broke.Fwiw, If the timing chain is that loose, you likely used good oil, did regular oil changes, and didn't beat on the engine.
From what I understand, and read, these timing chains will also break before they use up all of the timing chain adjustment. Plus, from a "Materials Engineering" (part of many Mechanical Engineer's background/knowledge) point-of-view, that's what *I* would except.
As a fun FYI, on the MB service DVD, they have a picture of the M271 engine with a dual timing chain (like the previous engine had).
But, they likely found that they could use a cheaper single row timing chain (saving them ?$10?), and have the engine typically last over 100K miles. Like your engine, it depends a lot on how well the engine is maintained, how the car is driven, the type of miles, and the ever-present "luck" of where that strength of that specific timing chain lands on the manufacturing tolerance trend (the strength/tolerance/etc of metal/etc varies over time for any real life manufacturing ).
03-31-2018, 08:08 PM
#11
Super Member
Btw, fwiw, most people do not change the supercharger oil. It takes a lot of time to get to it. But, if the oil is changed/maintained, then the "worse" that should happen to the supercharger is that it'll wear and not have the same amount of boost. But, the supercharger would last a very long time. That series supercharger is used on a number of other cars, engine, manufactures. It's a reliable supercharger.
So, *imho*, taking care of the timing chain, having a newer radiator, and having the cam adjuster wiring extensions, then I see keeping the C230K for a long time as a reasonable option. Again, there will be wear/maintenance items on any older car. My 5.0 Mustang is over 30 years old. And, I still consider it one of the most reliable cars on the road. But, I also do maintenance on all wear items. And, I get to have a real sports car, without the $$$$$ rip-off insurance rates for sports cars.
I plan to do the same for my C230K. My C230K is my second car toy. I'm planning on keeping it for a very very long time.
I love my 2005 C230K Coupe - the looks, the way it drives, etc.
When I want a full-on sports car, with it's harsh suspension tuned specifically for real handling (not "ricer-boy" handling), I have my Mustang.
So, *imho*, taking care of the timing chain, having a newer radiator, and having the cam adjuster wiring extensions, then I see keeping the C230K for a long time as a reasonable option. Again, there will be wear/maintenance items on any older car. My 5.0 Mustang is over 30 years old. And, I still consider it one of the most reliable cars on the road.
But, I also do maintenance on all wear items. And, I get to have a real sports car, without the $$$$$ rip-off insurance rates for sports cars.I plan to do the same for my C230K. My C230K is my second car toy. I'm planning on keeping it for a very very long time.
I love my 2005 C230K Coupe - the looks, the way it drives, etc.
When I want a full-on sports car, with it's harsh suspension tuned specifically for real handling (not "ricer-boy" handling
), I have my Mustang.
04-01-2018, 10:06 AM
#12
Junior Member
Thread Starter
The Supercharger in the Benz sounds really nice haha
Not quite sure about the Mustang, but it sure is really popular in my area, especially the newer ones.
The C230K is an amazing car, I loved driving it, sadly it wasn't a manual! If the M271 wasn't such a **** design, I'd buy again for sure!
Once I figure out what to do with this, I'm thinking about a 1st Gen Lexus IS300, hopefully in manual!
Thank you for the information btw!
Funny thing is, even with the Camshaft Position Sensor code popping up in the OBDD, with both of them unplugged, the car would still turn on before this incident, but it'd still idle roughly.
Doing regular maintenance on the car loosens the timing chain? Bullocks!
Honestly though, in the Winter, it was helluva fun driving the Benz with the traction control off. Practicing how to drift, doing donuts in an empty parking lot, almost hitting a curb; amazing.
Am I out of luck with this car now?
Maybe the timing chain has actually slipped.
And if so, I'd like to squeeze the most money I can out of it.
I'm thinking part out then scrap, or just sell the whole car.
I've been offered $700-$1000 for the car AS-IS.
I'm thinking parting out would be more beneficial for me?
Not quite sure about the Mustang, but it sure is really popular in my area, especially the newer ones.
The C230K is an amazing car, I loved driving it, sadly it wasn't a manual! If the M271 wasn't such a **** design, I'd buy again for sure!
Once I figure out what to do with this, I'm thinking about a 1st Gen Lexus IS300, hopefully in manual!
Thank you for the information btw!
Funny thing is, even with the Camshaft Position Sensor code popping up in the OBDD, with both of them unplugged, the car would still turn on before this incident, but it'd still idle roughly.
Doing regular maintenance on the car loosens the timing chain? Bullocks!
Honestly though, in the Winter, it was helluva fun driving the Benz with the traction control off. Practicing how to drift, doing donuts in an empty parking lot, almost hitting a curb; amazing.
Am I out of luck with this car now?
Maybe the timing chain has actually slipped.
And if so, I'd like to squeeze the most money I can out of it.
I'm thinking part out then scrap, or just sell the whole car.
I've been offered $700-$1000 for the car AS-IS.
I'm thinking parting out would be more beneficial for me?
