young

searchword 230pulleykits

can someone please explain the advantages and disadvantages of the various pulley kits... and here's the tricky part. in terms that someone who really doesn't know anything about this stuff can possibly digest.

kleemann steel pulley kit ($599) - 1 year warranty (1 year installation warranty if installed at approved shop)
220hp/227lb-ft

kleemann alloy pulley kit ($899) - 1 year warranty (1 year installation warranty if installed at approved shop)
232hp/239lb-ft

väth pulley kit ($1200?) - 2 year warranty on parts?
Performance(Achievement): 165 kW = 225 PS (basis 193 PS), 168 kW = 228 PS (basis 197 PS) torque: 320 Nm of 2.800 U/min (ok, this is a direct translation from their website...)

<strike>carlsson pulley kit ($???)
169 kW (230 PS)/ 5200 1/min</strike> unavailable in the US

renntech pulley kit ($1695) - 2 year limited warranty on parts
Larger Crankshaft Pulley, Idler Pulley Belt, ITG Air Filter
220@5300 HP 248@2500-4800 Torque
With out air filter ($1495.00)

wetterrauer pulley kit ($1295)
pulley that maintains the magnetic clutch, a drive belt, fuel pressure regulator and special air intake pipe for the increased air volume
230 HP 236 ft/lbs peak

am i missing anyone?

Buellwinkle

Hey what happened to the others? There's Wetteraur (1,200) & H & S (not sure of the price). I'm not sure but I think Oberklasse and Opera also make a pulley kit. Dynospot only makes them for the SLK for now but can probably be presuaded. I know that there are two other pulleys in various stages of testing that will be out soon. Nothing like competition to make the best product at the lowest prices.

young

you see, i've never heard of the other companies you're mentioning... it's all pretty new to me. feel free to add them to the discussion.

chuckd94

I thought that Wetteraur only had a chip available for the coupe

greg230

why buy this, when there is a more powerful alloy one from the same folks for a bit more change???

kinda scared no english website, and no english dealerships/retailers, but slk groups love em

would be my first choice (wanted to do all carlsson) but difficulty in aquiring the pully leads me to question it. nice web page though

proven performance, good reputation, randy is the *****, but thats a lotta money for a kit, when you can get the kleeman alloy kit, and mats for 500 less then the renntech kit.


Uncle jemmiama bullwinkles home grown mash pullies???

Lynn

The Wetterauer kit is a pulley, not a chip.

sdcaclint

i know i have expressed this opinion before, but beware of using a pulley that is substantially lighter than the stock one. don't forget that there is a heavy mass (flywheel) on the back of the engine. if you don't have the heavy pulley, you are going to change the harmonic balance of the engine. mb didn't make that pulley the way it did by accident. kleeman has stated that his alloy pulley makes more hp because of its reduced weight. this makes no sense. the only thing that a lighter mass would do is allow the engine to rev quicker. revving quicker is a good thing, and in conjunction with a lightened flywheel may be great. has anyone actually measured the diameter of the alloy pulley vs. the steel unit. i have a sneaking suspesion the allow pulley is slightly larger, accounting for the increase of power. looking at the dyno graphs, they have basically the same shape leading me to my thoughts on diameter difference.

Buellwinkle

I'm not making a pulley, I'm working with a pulley maker and helping them test. It's up to them if and how they want to market it.

Personally I'm still not convinced on the only solid pulley non-damper pulley on the market. It's strange but why does Renntech, Brabus, Väth, H&S, Carlson believe you need a damper? I'm convinced that some power is there from a lighter pulley.

Xeon

Call me a dummy...or call me an idiot...but i only have 1 thing to say / ask....

can someone update me about the pulley case??..buell??...or any one from kleemann......my car is calling for a pulley.....kleemann..wats the update on the alloy pulley??..

Buellwinkle

I know many are anxious but it's only been a week since I started. I checked on the Kleemann alloy pulley but they are not available yet so finalizing a group deal is pointless.

young

what do you think about the following comments regarding the kleemann steel ring pulley upgrade kit:

Buellwinkle

Personally if I had to buy a pulley today, I would get the Kleemann rings. Because

1) from all I've heard from different forums and industry experts and other pulley vendors, removing the damper and replacing it with a solid pulley is going to have long term reliability effects on the engine. The only person I've heard that says it's OK is the vendor so I have to take that with a grain of salt.
2) all the other vendors charge 1,200 and up.
3) although I would have someone install it, the rings are easily removed if you need engine warranttee work.
4) I don't believe the additional 8hp claims for the lighter pulley. I would believe 2-3hp. It just hasn't been substantiated by an independent source on this or any other board. I've only seen one other dyno on the alloy pulley he's not getting the expected boost in performance and is not a happy camper.

It's hard to explain but at higher altitudes the air is thinner and that causes the engine to run richer. Normally the O2 sensor detects this and compensates. Now if you increase boost a lot and the O2 sensor detects a lean condition the fuel pump and injectors can only do so much and you may end up a little lean. This is why Wetteraur includes fuel pump mods and Vaeth includes a different fuel pressure sensor. Being at high altitudes like in Colorado where Kleemann is may be enough to compensate for this making his results way better than us low landers. Then add to that testing in cooler temperatures of the rockies and that makes the intercooler more effective creating more HP. So to me more testing needs to be done in extreme conditions.

For this reason, as a second choice I would go with the Vaeth pulley. It's less aggresive and may prove to be more reliable in real world sea level, high temp summers. Although it's $1,200, it's one of the best values for a pulley/damper replacement and the fit and finish is excellent and it has the factory damper and a 2 year warranttee.

Installing a complete pulley is not much harder than installing the rings but requires more tools and skills and is best left to the pro. To return to stock just re-install the factory pulley if you haven't misplaced it over the years.

trench

Each pound of mass taken off the crankshaft is worth approximately 2.7 HP, because some of the power the engine is producing is going into spinning the crank pulley and not to the drivetrain. Also, on most newer cars the factory crank pulley is not a harmonic damper/balancer, but is designed to reduce engine noise and vibration, which has no effect on crankshaft or bearing life. (Although, to be fair, on some cars it is still used as a balancer - I'm not sure about the M111 Evo motor in the C230K). Lightening the flywheel is also another way to increase HP for the same reason; this usually isn't a problem due to the fact that today's engine management computers can easily keep up with a more rev-responsive engine. Factory flywheels tend to be heavier than they need to be primarily to aid in reducing transmission noise. Plus at the same time you can also upgrade the clutch (since it bolts to the flywheel).

I think the Kleeman alloy pulley has same final OD as their add on pulley ring. The power increases is from having a lighter pulley, although it could be slightly larger.

Cheers, BT

sdcaclint

please site your source on the 2.7 horsepower per pound.

Buellwinkle

According to Kleemann both pullies are the same diameter at 9 1/2" or 24cm. If the dimensions are true It would be pretty close to the water pump pulley and wouldn't have more room to grow. The H&S pulley is the largest I've heard of at 25cm. I've measured the clearances between the pullies and bigger than 25cm would not work.

It's definetly the lighter materials that contribute to some HP increase (not really an increase in the traditional sense but less drag on the engine resulting in more HP). I just don't believe the 8hp difference and would like to see a real world test on a 90f degree day at sea level.

As for engine vibrations, it may be years before we see the affects of a solid pulley on bearing life. The down side to that is your warranttee would have expired by then. No matter how well balanced the crankshaft pulley is you are going to transmit vibrations from the 10+ other pullies and belt to the crankshaft if you remove the damper. While it may not have any short term implications there has to be additional wear on the bearings caused by the vibration. That vibration may also transmit into other components attached to the crankshaft like pistons and rings. If the vibrations didn't matter then why does MB stamp a harmonic frequency on their pullies?

Cryptnotic

With the lighter pully, not only will the engine rev up faster, but the friction will be lower and the max engine speed will increase. It is at the max engine speed where you see the max horsepower, so that is why the "HP gain" is listed as being higher for the alloy pulley.

By the way, Brabus also does a +30hp pulley mod, but they charge $3,995 installed. It might also include a ECU mod.

TimmyC230boy

I am going to wait and see what comes of Buellwinkles marketing with a pulley maker, before i make any choices on a pulley. Personally i like the ring style. For 300 less and, although Kleeman says 8hp i would say more like 3-5, its alot easier to put on and take off. And for the extra 300 i would save i would be half way there for a upsolute chip too.

Now, if we could somehow, lighten the flywheel, ALL the pullies on the engine, and then chip it I think that would yeild some very nice HP increases. But I am no engineer so i may be wrong, thats why i will let the pros do the R&D on it. I know I keep going back to my Camaro, but just by replacing the stock flywheel with a very lightweight titanium one ($479) i picked up 11 rwhp and 3 tenths at the track. So lighter may not always be better, but from what i have personally seen it has been. As far as the long effects of our engines go, that doesnt really bother me that much. In 5 years when the powertrain warrenty goes out i will more that likely have a different car, maybe a C32 or an M3. But my car too, is longing for more HP!!

Spyke

Engines rarely put out their max HP at their max rpm. It's usually close, but not quite.

As for hp gains, some dynos are "inertia dynos". They measure the acceleration of the dyno's roller and calculate power from that. The faster it accels, the more power it reports. If an engine revs quicker due to lighter components, it will also accelerate the roller faster, leading to a higher hp reading. I'm still not sure that a brake dyno will report higher numbers simply from lighter rotating masses...

young

well, i just spoke w/ shawn at kleemann and asked him a few questions.

i was thinking that if the steel ring kit was simple enough, i could do it myself (but, i have minimal experience w/ this stuff. certainly, never removed a belt... ). he suggested a pro installation.

he wasn't sure how it was attached exactly, b/c he personally had never seen one, but he thought it was bolted on.

1 year warrantee. 1 year installation warranty if done at an approved shop.

he said both the alloy and steel kits are completely reversible if in the future, you wanted to go back to stock.

tommy

Didn't take him long to size you up, did it? :p

Any guess on how much AI would charge you for the install? Or have you talked to those people in West Chester at all?

young

nothing wrong w/ admitting lack of skill! i freely gave him that info.

i spoke w/ roberto at Union7 and he wasn't totally familiar w/ the steel ring kit but he will find out for me. he mentioned pro-rally? not sure what that is but he said that that's sort of the stuff they've done. see their website. but they're going to do "street cars" - mercedes only (so far). roberto sounds like a good guy and he knows kleemann.

AI sounds good, but it's far! and gil still hasn't gotten back to me about a saturday installation (it may not be possible). so taking off a whole day is more than just the cost of the kit and installation...

Buellwinkle

I was quoted an hour labor by a couple of Kleemann dealers for the Kleemann pulley kits. This would be the only group buy angle that most dealers would go for. If you can get groups that want the pulley in a certain area they will discount their labor. For example one dealer quoted me as much as 25% off parts and labor if we got him a large enough group but he would not sell the pullies discounted directly. Kleemann threatened to pull their dealerships if they discount their product.

If you let me know what area you are in, I'll put the list together for the nearest dealer and get back to you with what they promised based on the reponse. I can't publish the discounting dealers directly because Evosport will protest.

MagmaSilk

Buell, i'm in wash dc & interested in ring-type. any discount would be appreciated! tia.

Buellwinkle

There is a dealer willing to deal in your area. I can't e-mail you but send me an e-mail to buellwinkle@***.net and I'll fill you in.

renncpe

Renntech Kit

Larger Crankshaft Pulley, Idler Pulley Belt, ITG Air Filter
220@5300 HP 248@2500-4800 Toqure $1,695

With out air filter $1495.00

I think the 230k 202 body numbers were used in error

Randy