trout

I cannot for the life of me find a list that I found the other day. It was some sort of quality ranking or something.

I would like to show my wife...she was shocked when i told her I was changing my mind about buying the MB due to quality issues. She thinks I am kidding and that they must be ranked very high. I told her that most people would not even dare to own one if it was not under warranty so our idea idea of buying one for a long-term car would be a bad one. She is still convinced that MB is a top quality car maker. She laughed when i told her that my dodge ram hemi truck might last longer than a benz.

I guess its too early to determine if the 05 c230 ss is as bad as is previous models. Thanks yall.

raymond g-

would this be the one? i think i saw ref to it on CNN or Fox or some blah blah news website....

JD Powers

trout

Well hey! according to that one....MB looks much better.

Guest0001

thats a sales index, nothing to do with quality.

Guest0001

no offense to you but i wouldnt listen to your wifes advice when it comes to cars. You need to do some homework.

Saprissa

the problem with those quality ratings is that the Mercedes-Benz numbers are largely based on that certain crowd of people that complain about issues like:

- burned out light bulbs
- oh my god, there's a small leak
- sun visor broke
- seat squeaks when fat people sit in it
- speakers rattle when I blast the music
- I got a flat tire once !
- why can't I find a C-Spot Coupon ?
- the carpet is dirty
- cupholder is sticky
- my cd's are scratched
- etc, etc, etc...

Guest0001

Saprissa right. I remember I Read MB lost alot of points because people didnt like the cupholder design. Disregard these retarded surveys.

trout

LOl.. No doubt. The main reason that she bought her lexus rx300....drum role....was the arm rest. its attached to the seat, so when you move the seat up, the armrest is there too. Thats all it took.

ultraseven

Echoing Tuscanraider's thoughts, the surveys aren't exactly all jokes. However, if you can dig up the most common problem areas, you can judge the quality for yourself.

My C32 had the following:

1) Faulty engine oil level sensor ( module had to be replaced - 2 dealer visits)
2) rattles in B pillars, and behind dash ( fixed by dealer with aggressive use of felt tape )

It has about 18K miles and I am actually a happy camper. I wouldn't call #2 a red flag, but nonetheless on a one year old car it's still a quality issue.

That would be 2 problems per vehicle for good ol' Mr. Power

shortbear

There are several articles on the internet:

Lexus is No. 1 in durability

Japanese brands win top 5 spots in survey
November 22, 2002

BY MICHAEL ELLIS
REUTERS

Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus luxury vehicle division topped an industry study for long-term durability for the eighth straight year Thursday, while DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes division suffered the sharpest drop due to problems with its M-Class sport-utility vehicle.

Four- and 5-year-old Lexus cars and sport-utility vehicles had only 159 problems per 100 vehicles, far better than the industry average of 355 problems per 100 vehicles, according to J.D. Power and Associates' annual Vehicle Dependability Index Study.

All five of the top brands in the survey of 30,000 owners of 1998 model-year vehicles were Japanese nameplates, with Infiniti, Acura, Honda and Toyota following Lexus respectively in the rankings, J.D. Power said. Infiniti is the luxury vehicle division of Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. and Acura is the brand for Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s luxury cars and sport-utility vehicles.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan have led the industry in long-term dependability for years, and U.S. automakers have failed to close the gap, Brian Walters, director of product research, told Reuters.

Mercedes, which placed 10th in last year's study with 296 problems per 100 vehicles, fell 23 percent to about 364 problems per 100 vehicles, below the industry average.

J.D. Power declined to provide Mercedes' exact score this year, citing a policy of not releasing data for brands that score below average.

"They struggled with the introduction of the M-Class in 1998," Walters said. "It does highlight the fact that a new vehicle introduction with a totally new model, in a new plant for that matter, does put a strain on a manufacturer's ability to maintain their quality."

The M-Class was launched in 1998 from Mercedes' new plant in Tuscaloosa, Ala., the first automotive plant in the southern U.S. state. The M-Class was also Mercedes' first high-volume sport-utility vehicle.

"They're not alone," Walters said. "That happens to a lot of automakers."

Since the launch, the M-Class has been plagued by quality problems, according to J.D. Powers' benchmark quality study. However, Walters said the quality of the M-Class has improved since the launch, and he expects Mercedes' durability to climb above the industry average again.

Volkswagen AG's Audi luxury vehicle brand also suffered a sharp drop, falling 19 percent from 328 problems per 100 vehicles last year to below average this year, Walters said.

http://www.auto.com/industry/power22_20021122.htm

http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&sid=175&n=156

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosins...tos-198392.htm


Hopefully Mercedes is paying attention and will improve their quality control.

Outland

You survey guys wouldn't know quality control if it bit you in the ***.

Complaints about cupholders, armrests, brake dust or what have you don't belong in anyone's results.

Many things that people think are build quality issues are really design issues. The folks at the factory putting them together have no control over them. Nor do the MB Inspectors or other QC personel.

Lets face it, youre paying a premium for more than quality...innovative design, styling, performance and yes, its the prestige too. You won't get any of that in a Lexus. It'll never give you dirty wheels, and probably never break down till the sludge problem in the Toyota V6 finally kills it for good, but you never hear about that in these studies.

shorthair

Don't forget to check the Consumer Reports April car issue, which has a lot of problem/repair trend information over several years.

And don't forget to check out this thread also:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w203/41574-how-many-problems-your-c-what-kind-reliability-years.html

trout

I dont know...Lexus seems to be catching up on the prestige end. As far as quality goes, my wifes rx300 just had its 60k service done...it has never been to the shop other than for service in its lifetime. Hers has the "sludge prone" engine but from what I have researched it is generally caused by not changing oil regularly like you should. I also know that lexus will replace the engine even if you are out of warranty.

I know lexus is tops as far as quality and is considered a 'snooty' car like bmw, benz, etc....but for some reason I cannot get that 05 c230ss out of my mind. I plan on driving the is and the es but i worry that my mind as already made up. same thing when i drove the 325, i drove it but really didnt pay attention to it. I think I've been sucked in and will choose a shoddy built lesser quality benz over the lex. God help me!

r_liebo

You don't seem to be getting many unbiased opinions here (don't expect it -- this is a board full of C Class fanatics). However, trying to be as objective as possible, taking a look at all available information, the bottom line is MB quality isn't up to the standards of many other car makers.
If you are wanting a car that gives you the best odds of the car consistently performing as it should, from electrical to fit and finish to mechanical, you are better off with Toyota or Lexus. Most studies bear that out. MB does many things better than Lexus (styling, road feel, etc.) -- quality just isn't one of them.
That being said, most of the problems with MB vehicles tend to be of the electrical and fit and finish nature. Mechanically, they seem to be pretty strong. I do think a Benz will still run for quite a long time if cared for properly. However, the odds of you getting a Benz that is as tight and bulletproof 15 years in as it was off the showroom floor are just not that good these days. MB just doesn't pour the money into this area anymore.

You really need to look at all the available info from the most objective sources out there. Each source has some bias, but JD Power and Consumer reports are some good places to start. You will hear many on this board complain about their objectivity, but I don't see many better non-biased alternatives, and I don't see any quality surveys putting MB at the top of the list.

If you are looking for personal experiences, this board is a great place to research. My experience has been mixed. Really like the car, but it has more squeaks and rattles than most any car I've owned. One major transmission problem as well, electrical in nature. 10,000 miles so far.

trout

I was planning on leasing first. Would it be a good idea to lease the car for a few yrs, and then if it seems like a good one, just buy it?

mctwin2kman

Once again I will state that with all manufacturers you are going to have some issues. When you mass produce something built with parts from multiple vendors and assembled in diferent places you are going to have issues, whether it is a car, tv, radio, snow mobile, whatever! Now from my own experience of working in the car industry for over 10 years and having driven quite a few diferent cars from diferent manufacturers I would say I find it hard to believe that based on my own experience that there is a whole lot of honesty in these surveys. People owning a Ford or a Dodge or a Honda Civic are not going to complain about the same things as people owning a Lexus, BMW, Volvo, or MB are! People in the luxury car markets care about squeaks and rattles, people in the less expensive car market could care less and will drive there cars while the engine sounds as if it will fall out. And not complain or take it in for service until they feel it is getting bad enough. My family used to own a car dealership for 75 years, and I have seen a lot of customers service surveys. Once in a while they would rip us apart on the survey because they thought it was for the dealership they purchased the car from that they were not happy with on the survey and not the last dealer that serviced the car. Anyways, screw the surveys and buy based on your own experience. If I had listened to the surveys and all that crap before buying I would not own two Benz's right now. The only reason I would dump Benz is because I find a car that is more comortable, has styling I like better, and has the options I want and Benz does not have anything I like and just does it for me. I buy what I want to buy and if it breaks down a ton then I make the decision not to buy again from them. That is why they have a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty on them. Gives me some time to decide if it is worth keeping. As for my ride, I am quite happy with the W203 and have never had a problem that I would crab to JD Power about in a survey as far as my W203 goes and it has 32,000 miles on it.

r_liebo

That may be true, but it doesn't explain why Lexus finishes so far ahead of MB. These customers should have the same expectations -- after all a customer buying into Lexus' marketing of "relentless pursuit of perfection" is surely just as likely to complain about small problems as much as an MB owner is. Also, it ain't like MB is running a close second. They are pathetically far down the list. The only factor that may bias against MB more is that this company has consistently sold itself on quality and durability. If you are gonna advertise with photos of customers standing proudly in front of shiny 20 year old Benzes and showing the long life cycle of an MB vehicle as it performs dutifully for a family over many generations before hitting the crusher you had better back it up with a product that can meet those lofty expectations. MBs used to perform like this (my uncle still drives his 25 year old 240D daily, not one rattle) -- they just don't anymore.

tommy

Denial is a b1tch, and there's a bunch all through this thread. Some people here will continue to simply ignore the truth, like Germans in the late 1930's.

shortbear

My wife just bought a brand new 2004 RX330 and so far, as much as I hate to admit, the RX330 runs much more smoothly and seems to be better built than my 2002 MB c240. Lexus just seems to pay much more attention to detail. Ofcourse the Rx330 cost about $4000 more and has 4 wheel drive so I dont know if this is a fair comparison.

One thing I noticed is that the 2004 RX330 gets about the same gas mileage as my c240 even though it is a SUV (about 20mpg). However my wife spends less on gas than I do because my c240 requires premium 91 gas while the lexus Rx330 uses regular 87 gas. I have to pay an extra 20 cent per gallon for my sedan versus her SUV.

I have been a long term fan of Mercedes but unless they start improving their resale value and quality control, my next car might be a lexus instead of a mercedes. I am still eyeing the new M-class when it comes out to see if there are any improvements on the quality.

r_liebo

Quality control and resale go hand in hand. Get the first, and the second will follow. I bet the new M-Class will be head and shoulders above the prior one in terms of quality. MB is trying to address quality issues, and they slowly are doing so, I believe. Problem is that it costs money, and right now MB is spending all their cash on electronic technology, which just makes the cars more complex and prone to failure (great article in Automobile magazine a few months back on this topic).
I'm in the same boat for my next car. Would love an E500 as my family grows, but quality MUST improve for that kind of cash. Doesn't help my decision that my dad's new E500 already has a defective "keyless go" with only 1500 miles on the odo. New Lexus GS comes out next year, and it has more design spice than the current bland version. It may get a hard look when my lease runs out, despite my love for MB's designs.

trout

well the lexus ES330 and IS300 are at the top of my list to go drive before buying the c230. I hope they can match the MB low lease price though.

mctwin2kman

Because it is a Toyota and they just happen to build things to last better than MB currently does. MB used to have great quality back years and years ago, but as they add more technology they seem to not be testing as they should or they are getting the cheapest stuff they can. The ML caused them some serious hits in quality control issue, figures since it is built in Alabama! The new E-Class and the W203 also when it was released was riddled with bugs as well. Problem is MB tries to do to much instead of concentrating on the car itself and making sure the components will last. I was not saying MB is better than anyone else, just stating that it also depends on the consumers view of quality. Like me, I really could care less if the huge moonroof squeaks once in a while when cold. I know there is a big hole cut in the roof and the rubber when cold is not as plyable as well as the fact that cutting a big hole in a roof and then filling it with a large heavy glass panel is going to shift a little when cornering or hitting bumps. Maybe it is the Engineer in me that says most things in life are not perfect. Maybe we should start a survey about how frail and prone to breakdown the human body is and send it to the almighty creator! Everything will fail eventually, but we can try our best to make things last longer before failure and I think that is what all car companies are trying to do. I just see it as if I buy a Ford, MB, BMW, Volvo, Jaguar, Dodge, etc... that eventually I will have some sort of problem. Now the issue with the survey's is, am I as the end buyer going to complain about the problem? If so will I tell it like it is or will I embelish a little? Is it really a big deal to me? My family sold there car business after 75 years and actually had to go out and buy cars. Funny that none of us would complain about small issues with the car's since we were used to being on the other side of the table! I guess we are just not as picky as some people and we have owned and driven a good many cars. They are all bad at some point. But yes the almighty Quality Issue is why some last longer than others. Oh well, I guess when it comes to the issues with a car I am glad I bought a Benz, since I get a loaner and get the car back with everything fine no matter what the issue or maint item was. I would not get a nice new loaner at the local Lexus dealer! So I guess it all comes down to if the inconvenience is worth it or not to others. If any other car I owned broke down I was up a creek without a paddle and had to borrow or rent a car. Now I just call up and they come pick my car up and drop a loaner off.

trout

actually my wife got a nice new es300 as a loaner when her car was in for its 60k service...and we didnt even buy her car from this dealer.

Guest0001

I dont understand some people who constantly complain. there about 5,000 brands to choose from in America. IF you dont like your cars quality, you sell it and move on. You are not forced to choose MB. There is BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, Jag, Acura, and the overrated Lexus. Im sure one of these brands will satisfy you. Would you keep your girlfriend around if she constanstly NAGS and is unloyal? No you toss her.

tommy

Without a cup size, the answer to this question is impossible.