MBNewbii

There's been a lot of press about this "initial quality survey" in the papers over the past couple of days. Japanese cars seem to always come out on top.

What they fail to say, is that after 5 years, every Japanese car I've seen looks and feels like a piece of s**t. Brand new, a Lexus or Toyota is very nice. But the paintwork, interior controls etc... do not wear well.

On the other hand, I was driving a 1973 280 (original owner - mother in law) until last year that was still shining.

While having a couple problems the first few months is irritating, it's not really as important, IMHO, as the long term maintenance and quality issues.

What a useless survey :^)

Newbii

Buellwinkle

From personal experience I can attest to MBs crap build quality for last 20 years. The JD Powers 5yr reliabilty survey is where MBs poor reliabilty shows where it's nowhere close to the realiability of a even a Jaguar. I didn't buy an MB because I wanted a reliable car, I got it for the free car washes, free 4yr maintenance and good loaner program. If I had this many problems with an American or Japanese car it would have been gone a long time ago. But the quirkiness and the excitement of wondering what will break next, what kinda loaner will I get, will I hit the magical number of repairs to qualify for a lemon law case, endear me to the car.

And yes, you are right, MBs make the shiniest cars at the scrap heap. They should with all the free car washes and waxing they do.

revstriker

I know you've made this comment a few times, and I know that you've had some problems in the past. But I think that buying a car because of "free car washes" or a "good loaner program" is not too smart. I would rather buy a car that I had confidence in. That's one reason why I'll never buy another Ford. I've had two of them, and they were both pieces of crap. Now I know that some people love Ford, and have had no problems with them, but from my own experience, I will stay away. The only way I can even imagine that free car washes would come in to play in my decision making process would be if I was totally on the fence between two cars, but I doubt that would ever happen. I would even bet if you were to poll people, most would not even use the free car washes. I know I don't. My own experience with MB has been great. No problems with my past car, and none with this one. I also know quite a few people that have had or still have MBs that have not had any major problems. I rely more on this knowledge and experience than any survey.

MBNewbii

I hope your joking

Buying a $50,000 car for $500 worth of car washes and a maintenance plan that is matched by every other import has got to be the silliest thing I ever heard.

As for loaners, I've had BMW's and Audi's. Over 6 years, they might have spent a total of 10 days in the shop. Audi gives free rentals at Enterprise, BMW nothing. However, since most visits aren't overnighters, BMW will drive me home or to my office. And pick me up.

BTW, if you want a car wash, how long does it take. Do you just drive up and they do it right then and there. Or do you have to wait?

Time is money.

MBNewbii

2002 C320 Wagon Silver/Ash

galaxygrrl

lol, as I decided whether I will get another MB after lemoning it, I never thought about this. Think I could start a pool?

hphan

I feel bad for those of you who have gotten bad cars, I'm
on 5 weeks and 3300 miles with my car now. Troublefree,
with the exception of lack of time to get Kleemannized

SoCal240/6

I've always assumed that he was joking, because it is to idiotic to be serious.

The reality, I think, is that the MB symbol is a very powerful marketing tool. You could put the Star on a Kia, and people would buy it. When the Kia with the Kia badge breaks down, its a piece of *****, but when the Kia with the MB badge breaks down, its "excitement" and "endearing."

Marketing and perceived status go a long way.

Buellwinkle

I don't understand what you guys are talking about. The otherwise average car is made good because of the free loaners, car washes (with cookies and beverages) and free 4 years of maintenance. Is it a nice car, yes, but there are lots of nice cars. The Audi dealer does provide rentals but it's not the same. Enteprise rentals picks you up at the dealer drives you over to their office, then you wait in line to fill out paperwork so you can drive a Corolla, then it's the reverse when you pick the car up, is your time not worth anything? At MB I just sign and drive a $50k car. The car washes are full service hand washes like what you get at a car wash for $10+. It takes about 30-40 minutes midweek or early Saturday which is comperable to a full service car wash. Most of Saturday or lunch time during the week you are going to be there for over an hour so I avoid these times. They have 10 car wash bays and are expanding to 20. 4 years free maintenance is also something you don't get with most cars. All in all I figure that I'm saving $500/yr in car washes, $300 year in maintenance and countless headaches and time with the loaner so I figure during the life of my $25K car, the added value is probably around $5k.

If I got a car for what I want and desire without regard to the extras MB offers, I would have gotten Ford Mustang GT convertible or the Subie WRX. I've had 5 Mustangs and they've all been great, off course the dealers suck but are getting better. I've never had a Subie but it's a good looking car with super performance that can easily be modded for more. All three cars in the same 25k price range. It was tough, a great fast convertible, a fast rally like car or a 4 cyl unreliable hatchback with free car washes. You know which one I picked.

Beth, get another C230 so we can keep tabs of what breaks on it. You're just not going to get this much fun out of Honda.

Flashman

My car has had 0 problems, defects, noises, or complaints in the first 90 days of ownership. Of course, do I get a survey sent to me? Nope!

vinmanc32

But I have had nothing with my car in 7 months and 7200 miles. It it by far the best vehicle I have ever owned. Not that I have owned any really high dollar vehicles. I have always bought Volvos the last being the S80. This was my first Benz and it compares to one of my best Volvos as far as reliability. Nothing has gone wrong with the car since day one. It runs like a gem. Those surveys are somewhat worthless and I question how and where they get their data.

Buellwinkle

I agree, how can JDP rate MB as number 10 in 5yr reliabilty when MB doesn't hold a candle to Ford reliabilty which was rated much lower. It's all a farce to sell overpriced foreign cars. With the dollar in a virtual freefall against the yen the price of reliabilty just went up. There goes the 2003 Subie STI that I wanted!

nboyd

I have a problem with the fuel sensor displaying empty after a couple of hours driving and an unexplained clicking somewhere in the back.

I would take these problems for the rest of the cars life rather than 1 day longer with the Ford I purchased new.

The main problem was not with the car going wrong every few weeks or the incessant recalls but the service department, they did not care less about the car or me as a customer.

I have not experienced these problems with MB. The car is significantly better in terms of quality. The car certainly appears more reliable and MB know how to treat customers well.

I would not buy an American car again. Japanese cars all look cheap inside and out . After three years they look tired, hence they can not keep their value.

My bad experience with American cars does not make make me run for statistics on less complaints. I mean who's to say they just don't complain as much because they know they get what they pay for?

Or Maybe the computer that designs Toyotas accounts for clicks at a 25 degree angle, going 33 miles an hour. The problem is the computer does not account for style.

No thanks

Nathan

Buellwinkle

I can agree on one thing, MB knows how to do customer service. Ford/Toyota/Honda are not the greatest for service. It's a tough choice, do you want a car that needs a lot of attention and gets it or a car that requires less attention but when you need it you don't get it. I can go either way. The only time we visit the Honda dealer is when it needs maintenance and then we are not treated as nice but acceptable because my wife does it not me!

SoCal240/6

The service my parents get from Lexus is better, far and away, not even close, than any service they (or I) have ever received from MB or BMW.

So, Lexus would seem to be the car for you, its a car that needs little attention - number One in most quality surveys year after year (my father's has over 100,000 and has NEVER been in for an unscheduled service . . . not one single thing has gone wrong with it) AND probably the best overall service (who do you think MB copied as far as service??).

But, Lexus doesn't have the Star on the hood . . .

Buellwinkle

Actually I went into Lexus of Mission Viejo and they were very rude. I don't usually dress up to go to dealers so I was in a polo shirt and jeans and drove up in a new F150, my daugthers. They though I was there to deliver parts or something and had a snooty attitude so I crossed Lexus off the list. They were building a car wash at the time and said they will offer free car washes in the future. I even went as far as calling Lexus headquarters to find out about the new 2002 that wasn't available yet and they invited me to special event to test drive the car but I didn't like the new styling. Funny because the reason I didn't get an MB 2 cars ago was because of the same experience at Fletcher Jones. I just don't like dealers that treat you differently because of how you appear to them with their suits on. I had a friend make me come with her to the MB dealer because they wouldn't talk to her because she was a woman. I told her she was crazy and went with her anyway. Even though she made it clear that she was buying the car and it was for her, the salesman only spoke to me, even when she asked a question, he answered her question to me. Needless to say she didn't get an MB and is now a happy Audio A6 owner. Of course since they gave me all the attention I had to buy one!

DrMike

There was an article in consumer reports a while back that had an interesting comment on reliability. They noted that cars can be ranked on reliability (which keeps JD Powers in business), but in general, current cars a far more reliable than cars from years past. I have to agree that as a group. todays cars are far more reliable than cars of 10, 20 of 30 years ago. I remember days of tuneups every 3000 miles, balky starting due to moisture in distributer caps, and having to rebuild carburetors. Despite occasional gliches, things are much better today.

One other MB attribute neglected in posts is their obsessive attention to safety. Comparing the MB and "reliable" japanese cars, it is notable that the coupe has all the safety equipment as standard. Certainly safety is worth some consideration.

galaxygrrl

I say a pool! First lemon law case was filed at 17,000 miles (problems started at about 2,000). This one, I filed at about 6,000 miles (though the problems started the day I drove it off the lot). So, the question is if I get another c230, when will I file?

You're right what fun would a car that works be? :p

Cheers,

Beth

benzomonterey

I will say 10,500

Funny that I tried to trade up to a C320 last weekend and the MB dealer offered me 20 for the coupe yet toyota put in 24500. Benz wanted to jack my payments up 300 bucks on a lease.

Buellwinkle

Heck, these cars are so unreliable they are stuck with lots of them at my dealer and they are blowing them out for at least $2,500 off. They had 15 up front that I can see. Usually they have a bunch in the back waiting to be prepped.

Toyota is very generous, my dealer had brand new C230s with C5 (bose, leather, roof and other crap) & automatic for 26.5k. On the other hand they had non-leather used C230s for the same price. So maybe they are worth more used!

benzomonterey

yeah the thinking is rather bizzare. They said they would probably put my car back out on the lot for 25 or so. Their thinking is a bit skewed I think since they are dealing with a product they are not sure how to market or sell. They aren't used to this pricing point for a used 2002 Benz. I think it's scaring them. I was attempting to trade at FJ in Vegas which deals with alot of high end customers. THey had about 10 coupes on the lot. I was even looking at going into a C320 wagon. They wanted me to trade the coupe get 20 for trade, put 5k down and have an 800 payment for 48 months on a lease. The dealer kept telling me what a great deal I was getting.

Buellwinkle

That's bizzarre. You can get the C320 wagon for about $5k off and that puts in the C240 price range. With no money down you should be able to get a nice lease for less than $500/month. You're better off with the Toyota, no headaches!

speedfrk

It has been noted that people also fill out surveys based on pre-conceptions. For example, a few years back, Toyota and GM shared a plant in Ca that built Corollas and whatever the Chevy rebadge was at the time. The quality surveys consistently showed better quality for the Toyotas than the Chevys even though they were the exact same car, built on the same assembly line. People assumed Toyotas are more reliable than Chevys, and filled out the surveys accordingly.

Buellwinkle

OK, that explains why the MB got 10th place in 5yr dependability when it really deserved 20th place. Thanks for sharing that. What's would be strange then is that most people percieve the Jaguar to be less reliable and quirky but it got 3rd place.

benzomonterey

Honestly after 45 cars I don't worry much anymore. I like to buy whats new and current for the fun of it.

I have had a buncha loser lemon cars but still enjoyed them for awhile


just to name a few of the losers:

Fiero - American
Merkur Xr4ti - Supposed to be German
Capri Convertible - Australian built
94 Mustang - American
01 Jetta - Mexican I think

I figure my addiction is comparible in price to a drug habit so I am doing allright. Plus it helps to be friends with the higher ups at the right dealership.

I agree about the survey thing. I love my Matrix but probably wouldn't be caught dead in a vibe. Funny thing is all the Vibes I have seen so far have been rental cars. GM has once again put themselves in a bad position. Taken what could have been a boy racer fun car and added black cladding and a roof rack trying to push the SUV message. Toyota has gone after the aftermarket tuner and allready TRD is coming out with a bunch of factory sponsored Matrix stuff which is going to push the car to a little over 220 in HP.

So the General once again screwed himself.

speedfrk

You are welcome. I was referring to the thread title which is in reference to initial quality. I've never owned a car more than 3 yrs, so the 5 yr dependability doesn't really matter to me very much. BTW, I did get one of those JD Powers surveys, but it was so long I threw it in the pile of stuff to do later, and never got around to it. So maybe I skewed the results since I haven't had any problems except I don't like the way the shifter feels.