oblu

You can tell a lot by looking under a car.

BMW 3 series, you pay for a lot that you can't see, and their suspensions are actually crude to the point of being from a horse drawn carriage, regardless of how effective they are; front suspension one lower arm, strut/spring pinch bolted to lower arm, attached to chassis at top; rear, lower arm, spring placed between chassis and arm, strut bolted to arm and chassis. But the chassis and components themselves look beautifully crafted.

Audi A series, suspension more complicated that it probably needs to be, given how ineffective it is. But chassis not as well wrapped up and you can see visually what looks like corners cut. Presumably to offset costs of wrapping up what you can see, Interior, trunk, engine compartment, etc.

MB, verdict is still out. I crawled under the W204 last night in a failed attempt at replacing a damaged front grill and I wasn't too impressed with what I saw. Everything had that patina of cost conscious corner cut engineering. I'm no engineer, and I'm sure my opinion will anger Mercedes fan boys, but the components and fit/finish didn't look anywhere near the levels of BMW or Audi.

Star & Laurel

Sorry to say, but your critic of supsensions just by mearly looking underneath the cars has very little perception of what has actually gone into the design of these suspensions. Every style suspension in the world has its pros and cons no matter what it is. It could go from being the best with camber gain in a corner, to the cheapest to build. In any case the engineers that designed each one of those suspensions you mention put years into the design, placement, specifications, stiffness everything that all culminates to the final produce you see today. Granted not all suspensions are "Ideal" but in some cases the engineer working on the suspension design in a specific car was not able to apply what he wanted becasue of any variable reasoning out there. Probably the largest most widely seen reasons out there in mass produced automotive world are either interior space, or crash safety.

peabers

OBLU -- I think you're getting the point. Manufacturers nowadays are looking to squeeze every penny of profit out each car they produce. So whatever little money they put into the product, they'd rather put it where the normal consumer can see it (like carpeting the trunk). Sadly, in this cost-conscious/disposible-items world, the art of craftsmenship and quality are getting lost.

But consider this... open and close the hood of the MB versus the BMW versus the Audi, which one makes the most solid "thug"? Despite some of the cheapness in material, the W204 is still built as solid as a vault.

Stiggs

So how can you tell whats good and bad just by crawling under the car? Wouldn't if drive like crap if it had crappy springs and shocks?
Car feels fine to me. You must be right...its crap.

W0n6_3d4n

IMO, the ride in Audi is not in the same level as BMW or Merc, slightly better than Lexus but not up to the other Germans.

tanktube67

<<Originally Posted by oblu
I'm no engineer,>>

<<Originally posted by Stiggs
So how can you tell whats good and bad just by crawling under the car? Wouldn't if drive like crap if it had crappy springs and shocks?
Car feels fine to me. You must be right...its crap.>>

^ I agree

Savage c-300

yea, i love the ride in my w204. the suspension might not LOOK nice but it works!

oblu

Of all 3, my BMW hood closed the best. And I'm the one that's chasing issues with the rear view mirrors rattling when the doors close, so I don't call that solid as a vault.

I never said it was crap Or did I? I'm too lazy to re-read. What I'm implying is that it's easy to see where corners where cut in the interest of cost savings. Sure the engineering dept wants things one way, but they've got a budget to work with. And then when they actually produce the parts .. more cost cutting.

I guess my ultimate point was, you can see differences in each brand about how much effort they put into the appearance of the underside of the car. What I saw under the W204 looked like bargain basement compared to my other cars.

oblu

I'll 2nd that. When I swap back to my car after driving my wife's Audi I appreciate it even more.

Stiggs

I guess my point was you can see it but not feel it so then is it really cost cutting? Maybe you are not seeing the whole picture. I have no idea whats under that car. Probably a ***** load of metal and pipes. No way I'm gonna tell it its cheap or not. But you may know alot more about suspension parts then I do. Hell, I don't even change my own oil.

MBTex

He forgot to tell you he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

GDawgC220

I'd have to disagree with that and not because I drive one.

When I was looking at new cars back in '04, I looked at all 3. In terms of ride/handling, I'd have to give it: w203 < B6 < e46. I have not driven a w204 yet so I cannot comment on the ride/handling. The w203 was more emphasis on luxury ride than sport. The B6 combo of both sport and luxury ride and BMW more on sporty ride.

You didn't say what Audi is not the same level but by your post, it looks like you're going for the entire brand.

oblu

Sample some of the newer Audi's. They went to rock hard dampers with the intro of the A6 and haven't looked back since.

My 03 B6 rode fine on the sports suspension, bit softer than the e46 sport package that it replaced. The B7s we get as loaners are totally different.

My wife's car even has air suspension and on 'comfort' it pounds over bumps. Large bumps it handles okay, but small sharp impacts like seams and expansion joints crack through the car.

GDawgC220

I've driven a bunch of B7s and C6s, though since they were loaners, just non-sport models. The only newer MB I can compare it to is the w211 and I got a E350 Sport as a loaner once. I thought that the C6 was pretty comparable to the w211. I think all 3 does their job pretty well.

MB Fanatic

Why did you buy this car then?

oblu

Never said I didn't like the car. I can be critical of something and still enjoy it.

Ride/handling balance is perfect for my current lifestyle.

And I buy a new car every 18-24mo, so even if I begin to hate it, I'll just get something else soon.

Germancar1

I don't get the point here. If the car rides and handles like you want it to, then what the point of seeing how it is finished underneath? Mercedes' are still engineered to death and most people don't look under the car and those who do usually don't have a clue as to what they're looking at. What it looks like has absolutely nothing to do with how it performs so this is really matterless.

M

W0n6_3d4n

I sample the A4 2.0T. The handling is great, i just don't like the ride, it's stiff but doesn't feel that solid to say a 3 series.

oblu

The point for me is, I think Mercedes engineered every last dime of profit they could into the car. And I'm not buying the marketing hype that it's the greatest Mercedes accomplishment since cheese in a can.

It's still a good car. But I believe after seeing how it's bolted together that if it truly was engineered to death that they would've done a better job.

AsianML

But you're not an engineer.

MBTex

Holiday Inn Express...

Stiggs

As long as the bolts are nice and tight I'm happy!

Germancar1

Sorry I don't see what the difference is especially if you aren't in a position to tell us exactly what the liability is from MB having done what they've done underneath the car. What proof do you have that it isn't engineered to a high degree? A better job at what, making it "look" better? This is much ado about nothing IMO. The suspension does the job and generally carmakers don't win any styling point about how the car looks underneath. Under the hood maybe, but not under the chassis of a high-production car like a C-Class.

M

oblu

No point for you then. It's my personal opinion. Never asked you to share it, I was just putting it out there that I personally think this car is heavily penny-pinched to make as much money as possible. There's no liability to it either. I guess more than anything, being new to Mercedes, I was a bit surprised and I was expressing that.

Like I said, the only thing I have that comes anywhere near proof, is crawling around and working on other brands. They looked, and seemed to me, better put together with higher quality pieces than this car.

That is all. I know it's not going to be a popular opinion on a Mercedes board; people always have the tendency to vehemently defend whatever product they've choosen as the best possible choice ... especially in forum land. That's normal and to be expected.

Just passing the time with conversation, take it for what its worth or tell me I'm full of *****. It's all good.

maryjcl

Honestly, this is probably the stupidist, most pointless post I have ever read. It also illustrates the danger of believing even a small percentage of what you read on the internet.

BMW suspensions, in terms of quality and dynamics, are generally some of the best in the world, as are those from Mercedes Benz. They are tuned differently -- BMW generally favors handling, Mercedes ride comfort -- but if you have ever owned either car long-term, and compared it to what else is out there, you would realize that no other cars have such long-lived, well made components, from shocks and springs, to control arms and bushings. Yes, BMW suspsensions tend to be simpler, but the proof is in the proverbial pudding. Mercedes suspensions tend to be a bit more elegant, but they are also beautiful. I've had BMWs and Mercedes go over 100k miles on the same, original equipment shock absorbers, and only change bushings, whereas other cars will go through several sets during that same time. This is but one example.

And to our genius poster: what's your professional background? Are you an engineer? Or did you sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night? Do you know that the engineers at the major automobile companies, even the ones those of us here would not consider the "top of the heap," generally graduate from the finest engineering programs? Maybe you are just an idiot with buyer's remorse?

Sorry to be harsh, but I read some of these posts and can't help myself. No automobile, or manufacturer, is perfect, certainly. But all these people yearning for the "craftsmanship of old" are forgetting the fact that, objectively speaking, new cars are better in all respects -- they are more reliable, require less service, are safer, and last longer (rust proofing is just one example). And they pollute substantially less. Are there certain trade-offs made for fuel economy and competition? Sure. But since when is competition and cost new factors for a business? Do you think Mercedes and BMW had no competition in the 1970s? The 1980s? Such a bunch of nonsense and BS.

Go troll somewhere else. Moreover, if your car is such a POS, go sell it. Better yet, go out in traffic and roll around on the ground under people's cars. Hopefully you will not be seen and someone will drive over you. A victory for natural selection . . . .