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Diesel C Class soon?

 
Old 01-06-2008, 06:43 PM
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Diesel C Class soon?

BMW is coming out with a Diesel 3 series at the end of the the year, but looking at the specs, it gets less MPG, then the CDI E Class.

Knowing Merc's better Diesel technology, will they releasing a CDI C Class? It would be a great replacement for my dad's daily driver, a Camry Hybrid. If there is none, looks like he will get the new Jetta TDI with DSG


thanks!
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mickeyyeety View Post
BMW is coming out with a Diesel 3 series at the end of the the year, but looking at the specs, it gets less MPG, then the CDI E Class.

Knowing Merc's better Diesel technology, will they releasing a CDI C Class? It would be a great replacement for my dad's daily driver, a Camry Hybrid. If there is none, looks like he will get the new Jetta TDI with DSG


thanks!
Who wants diesel, when diesel is more expensive than Supreme, thats my opinion
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:33 PM
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I saw an article in Automobile Magazine about this today (BMW diesel) and was wondering if Benz would be bringing C-diesels to the US. It's unfortunate that the only diesel options in the US are on the top of the line models.

Why diesel? Torque for one, oodles of it. You are also able to run biodiesel and send your fuel money to US farmers rather than filthy-rich-terrorist-harboring-camel-jockeys. Another is that although diesel is more expensive, it is also more efficient. Because of the low end torque, it is ideal for city or stop and go conditions. Typically they are lower maintenance too.

I would actually trade my w124 Kombi for a W204 220 diesel Kombi with 4matic.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by myfirstbenz View Post
I saw an article in Automobile Magazine about this today (BMW diesel) and was wondering if Benz would be bringing C-diesels to the US. It's unfortunate that the only diesel options in the US are on the top of the line models.

Why diesel? Torque for one, oodles of it. You are also able to run biodiesel and send your fuel money to US farmers rather than filthy-rich-terrorist-harboring-camel-jockeys. Another is that although diesel is more expensive, it is also more efficient. Because of the low end torque, it is ideal for city or stop and go conditions. Typically they are lower maintenance too.

I would actually trade my w124 Kombi for a W204 220 diesel Kombi with 4matic.
^ are you willing to pay $8,000.00 for a diesel engine new diesel engines are required to have "0" emissions and regarless the new technology are still noise and are not as fast, torque if I need more torque I'll get a truck, lower maintenance todays date the only diference between gas and diesel engines is the fuel other wise you have all tipe of sensors, computer modulos, relays...
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:04 AM
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There was a link on the mbusa site at one point showing the bluetec C, but that page has since disappeared.

+1 on the diesel being more than gasoline now though.

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Old 01-07-2008, 12:51 AM
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Diesel C

<<...wondering if Benz would be bringing C-diesels to the US. It's unfortunate that the only diesel options in the US are on the top of the line models.
Why diesel? Torque for one, oodles of it. You are also able to run biodiesel....>>

According to our local MBUSA rep. when the C diesel comes to the US it will be the 2.2 4-cylinder, not the V-6 Bluetec, even though that engine is sold in the W204 elsewhere.

No, you cannot use bio-diesel more than a small percentage, according to the warranty. And 6-7 more MPG highway sounds good to me. I have driven a friend's '07 E-Class Bluetec and I would love to have that engine in my C300. And it's quiet and doesn't stink.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:20 AM
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I've test drove the 220CDI, I couldn't hear any engine noise during idle in the cabin. I wouldn't consider the sound they make during accelaration to be noisy, I was impressed with the diesel. If they make it the same price as the petrol i wouldn't think twice of getting it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tanktube67 View Post
^ are you willing to pay $8,000.00 for a diesel engine new diesel engines are required to have "0" emissions and regarless the new technology are still noise and are not as fast, torque if I need more torque I'll get a truck, lower maintenance todays date the only diference between gas and diesel engines is the fuel other wise you have all tipe of sensors, computer modulos, relays...
Diesel engines are much more enjoyable than a gasoline engine of similar size, plus they use much less fuel and last longer.

I cannot see why people drive anything but diesel, gaslone engines have no torque, drink fuel, and die earlier.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:40 AM
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I test drove the '07 E320 and it is a very good vehicle. All the old school diesel issues do not apply to these cars. My '05 Jetta TDI was also not a smelly smoker. With the amount of torque the little motor got up to highway speeds in a hurry and high speed passing was exceptional. The mileage was just gravy.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RLE View Post
<<...wondering if Benz would be bringing C-diesels to the US. It's unfortunate that the only diesel options in the US are on the top of the line models.
Why diesel? Torque for one, oodles of it. You are also able to run biodiesel....>>

According to our local MBUSA rep. when the C diesel comes to the US it will be the 2.2 4-cylinder, not the V-6 Bluetec, even though that engine is sold in the W204 elsewhere.

No, you cannot use bio-diesel more than a small percentage, according to the warranty. And 6-7 more MPG highway sounds good to me. I have driven a friend's '07 E-Class Bluetec and I would love to have that engine in my C300. And it's quiet and doesn't stink.

Did he mention a timeline and price point?
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:29 AM
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While we wait for a C250 Bluetech, AutoCar has two reviews of the C220 CDi already on sale in the UK:

(i) a detailed (June 2007) road test of the Sport (Avantgarde) sedan

(ii) a shorter review (January 2008) of the new wagon, also in Sport form

Funnily enough, the first review recommends the automatic (even though it is a 5-speeder), while the second recommends to save the money and pick the "sweet-shifting" manual.

Car Magazine also has reviews of the same two cars:

(i) C220 CDi Sedan, which the reviewer did not particularly like with the Sport settings; having driven a U.S.-specs C350 Sport on very bad roads, I'd have to disagree with his assessment of the suspension. More to the point here, he has nothing bad to say about the engine.

(ii) C220 CDi Estate

All in all, the engine is fine but a bit gruff at idle and under heavy acceleration, and fuel economy is good but not stellar -- the C250 should improve on all that!

Last edited by ayilar; 01-07-2008 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:42 PM
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From my experience with the 220, I would only buy it with the 6MT, why would I pay more for an inferior 5-speed?

On the C320CDI, in comparison, I would get the 7g-tronic without question.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tanktube67 View Post
^ are you willing to pay $8,000.00 for a diesel engine new diesel engines are required to have "0" emissions and regarless the new technology are still noise and are not as fast, torque if I need more torque I'll get a truck, lower maintenance todays date the only diference between gas and diesel engines is the fuel other wise you have all tipe of sensors, computer modulos, relays...
Tear apart a diesel motor with 100k and tear apart a spark engine with 100k and it'll be immediately clear which is going to last longer. Part of that is that diesel motors have to be built stouter and part is that because of the hotter temps they don't leave behind burnt up junk like a spark motor does.

I for one, will rejoice when diesel becomes as popular as it is in EU. Diesel prices will go down. Until you've driven a modern diesel, keep an open mind and don't crap on them based on truck/mid-80's concieved notions.

The extra torque means you're out accelerating a spark motor in real world driving conditions; diesel motors are almost always blown, so that means easy and cheap hp gains from software upgrades; they get 15-20% better gas mileage; car diesel motors are growly and rumbly in a good way now (my opinion), they're definately not clattery or loud anymore.

Isn't diesel fuel easier to refine too?
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:15 PM
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PS. If you're experience with diesel is limited to US built trucks, then you're worlds off of what modern diesels are. Think about who makes them, and the intended audience.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by oblu View Post
I for one, will rejoice when diesel becomes as popular as it is in EU. Diesel prices will go down. Until you've driven a modern diesel, keep an open mind and don't crap on them based on truck/mid-80's concieved notions.

The extra torque means you're out accelerating a spark motor in real world driving conditions; diesel motors are almost always blown, so that means easy and cheap hp gains from software upgrades; they get 15-20% better gas mileage; car diesel motors are growly and rumbly in a good way now (my opinion), they're definately not clattery or loud anymore.

Isn't diesel fuel easier to refine too?
+1 for me too. I drove a VW Golf rental all over Italy last year. Spent the first 2 days driving a couple hundred miles each day in the Dolomites and the car had great power and took the abuse with good mileage. In fact, I didn't even realize that it was a deisel until I had to fill it up the morning of our third day.

Diesel engines have definately improved from the 70's and 80's. I think the Bluetech MB's would be big sellers in the US once they catch on.

It also isn't that it is easier to refine then gasoline because it is all refined the same way. It is just the "bottom of the stack" of the refined product because it seprates at lower temps then the higher grade petrols and jet feuls that end up on top of the deisel as it is refined. I do believe that a higher percentage of your average barrel of crude ends up as deisel though.

The bad thing is that it is already popular in Europe and elsewhere and the demand for it has started to rise. If it catches on in the US the prices per gallon are sure to go up. But it still may be cheaper on a per mile basis.

Last edited by MBTex; 01-07-2008 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:36 PM
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Lightbulb DiesOtto Engines - Popular Science Jan. '08

There was an interesting article in the Jan. issue of Popular Science regarding MB's upcoming new diesel powerplant called DiesOtto. It's still 7-10 yrs away though...

"DiesOtto sips fuel like a diesel, revs like a gas engine, and runs cleaner than either of them."

It uses a homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) system. To sum it up, it will start and accelerate like a gas engine using its spark plugs, but then when you get up to speed it switches to HCCI and uses a higher compression (by pushing the pistons up higher in the cylinder) and heat to ignite the fuel mixture. Sounds like the HCCI engine will be able to run a variety of fuels including gas, bio-diesels, propane, natural gas and ethanol.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:42 PM
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Interesting....might need to keep that on the radar for the car after next...
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Krytech View Post
There was an interesting article in the Jan. issue of Popular Science regarding MB's upcoming new diesel powerplant called DiesOtto. It's still 7-10 yrs away though...

"DiesOtto sips fuel like a diesel, revs like a gas engine, and runs cleaner than either of them."

It uses a homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) system. To sum it up, it will start and accelerate like a gas engine using its spark plugs, but then when you get up to speed it switches to HCCI and uses a higher compression (by pushing the pistons up higher in the cylinder) and heat to ignite the fuel mixture. Sounds like the HCCI engine will be able to run a variety of fuels including gas, bio-diesels, propane, natural gas and ethanol.
Saw that. It was in a couple of the usual car rags too. Hope it catches on, but I fear it'll be like rotary and turbine engines. Car makers will probably choose to use old school cheap proven techniques like FI on smaller engines to make them more effecient.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by stephensong View Post
I test drove the '07 E320 and it is a very good vehicle. All the old school diesel issues do not apply to these cars. My '05 Jetta TDI was also not a smelly smoker. With the amount of torque the little motor got up to highway speeds in a hurry and high speed passing was exceptional. The mileage was just gravy.
The 2005 TDi Jetta also does not have all those useless and expensive filters, excellent on fuel economy and not too choosey on fuel requirements. I mixed all sorts of petroleum products with the diesel I put into my sold 1999 series 3 Jetta TDi (Upsolute chipped) and it was enjoyable to see what car engines can do without all the now mandatory "clean" diesel technologies. Get one with the 5 speed stick and you can keep the turbo on the boil.

Do not sell your TDi until half a million miles and blowing all sorts of colored smoke from the tail pipe.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mickeyyeety View Post
BMW is coming out with a Diesel 3 series at the end of the the year, but looking at the specs, it gets less MPG, then the CDI E Class.

Knowing Merc's better Diesel technology, will they releasing a CDI C Class? It would be a great replacement for my dad's daily driver, a Camry Hybrid. If there is none, looks like he will get the new Jetta TDI with DSG


thanks!
The BMW has far superior horsepower and torque (265 bhp and 425 pound foot) over the Bluetec E320 V-6 engine. The MB is tuned for economy and tree-hugging nuts.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by harkgar View Post
The BMW has far superior horsepower and torque (265 bhp and 425 pound foot) over the Bluetec E320 V-6 engine. The MB is tuned for economy and tree-hugging nuts.
The BMW engine is quite powerful and enjoyable to drive, but I have heard of a great deal of reliability issues with that engine.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by oblu View Post
Tear apart a diesel motor with 100k and tear apart a spark engine with 100k and it'll be immediately clear which is going to last longer. Part of that is that diesel motors have to be built stouter and part is that because of the hotter temps they don't leave behind burnt up junk like a spark motor does.

I for one, will rejoice when diesel becomes as popular as it is in EU. Diesel prices will go down. Until you've driven a modern diesel, keep an open mind and don't crap on them based on truck/mid-80's concieved notions.

The extra torque means you're out accelerating a spark motor in real world driving conditions; diesel motors are almost always blown, so that means easy and cheap hp gains from software upgrades; they get 15-20% better gas mileage; car diesel motors are growly and rumbly in a good way now (my opinion), they're definately not clattery or loud anymore.

Isn't diesel fuel easier to refine too?
Petroleum-derived diesel is composed of about 75% saturated hydrocarbons (primarily paraffins including n, iso, and cycloparaffins), and 25% aromatic hydrocarbons (including naphthalenes and alkylbenzenes).[6] The average chemical formula for common diesel fuel is C12H23, ranging from approx. C10H20 to C15H28
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mickeyyeety View Post
Knowing Merc's better Diesel technology, will they releasing a CDI C Class?

Sorry but Merc do not have better diesel technology then BMW, the current 3 series have more powerful and better fuel economy diesels than the w204's, if you want the specs just look at BMW UK or Mercedes UK websites they get the full model ranges from both manufacturers.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tanktube67 View Post
^ are you willing to pay $8,000.00 for a diesel engine new diesel engines are required to have "0" emissions and regarless the new technology are still noise and are not as fast, torque if I need more torque I'll get a truck, lower maintenance todays date the only diference between gas and diesel engines is the fuel other wise you have all tipe of sensors, computer modulos, relays...
wrong, so very wrong, diesels due to their superior torque are often quite a lot faster through the gears than their petrol counterparts, an excellent example is the 335id which is often considered (by european motoring magazines) to be better than the 335i. In Norway diesels are cheaper than petrol engined cars and you pay less at the pump, it's win win for the consumer.

Roll on the R8 v12 TDI, 500bhp, monster torque, what a beast.
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