High Speed Handling
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,601
Likes: 28
From: Atlanta, GA
2008 C300 Sport 6 Speed Manual, 1953 Chevy Bel-Air, 2015 Audi allroad, 1963 Chevy Apache
Will the ESP light come on every time the electronic nannies kick in? If so, I didn't have any e- intervention on my ramp escapade...
I think I will find a nice big open lot somewhere and see what she can do with and without e- assistance.
I think I will find a nice big open lot somewhere and see what she can do with and without e- assistance.
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
Gotta disagree with you on most of what you said.
The sport model has plenty of tire for a 3500 lb car, the center of gravity is already low enough to prevent any sort of top heavy type roll and the shock/spring set up is already quite stiff. The Michelin Pilots are not sticky summer tires but should be quite sufficient for simply doubling posted limits(I am running a couple PSI over recommended). The car was not pushing or rolling but simply did not feel stable and would not take a set line.
I think Derspeed got it right in stating that it is more of a compliance issue as my car has been really impressive in very smooth conditions. If Glyn is right, at the limit, the car would have simply started understeering but I did not want to find that out at 85mph with a big drop on the other side of the old, small guard rail...just curious, what would you consider as high speed...I figure any speed where the car would end up as an unreconizable lump of metal is high speed enough for me...
The sport model has plenty of tire for a 3500 lb car, the center of gravity is already low enough to prevent any sort of top heavy type roll and the shock/spring set up is already quite stiff. The Michelin Pilots are not sticky summer tires but should be quite sufficient for simply doubling posted limits(I am running a couple PSI over recommended). The car was not pushing or rolling but simply did not feel stable and would not take a set line.
I think Derspeed got it right in stating that it is more of a compliance issue as my car has been really impressive in very smooth conditions. If Glyn is right, at the limit, the car would have simply started understeering but I did not want to find that out at 85mph with a big drop on the other side of the old, small guard rail...just curious, what would you consider as high speed...I figure any speed where the car would end up as an unreconizable lump of metal is high speed enough for me...
Ok so u disagreed with most of what i said?
Now i understand your theory and i would just like to remind you again "the law of diminishing returns applies" now you are saying that wider then stock tires will not benefit the car? i feel sorry for your ignorants, wider tires will help the car, there is no way the tires a wide enough for this car.
U say the car is already stiff enough, well the car handles pritty darn well stock, i have installed h&r ss and the car feels alot and i mean alot better, why do you think that is?
Lastly if the turn is taken "properly" then you guys would know that mb did a very good job balancing the car because when on edge there is more oversteer then understeer again when the car handled PROPERLY.
For those of you who do not know how to, yess the car will underseer and this is probably for your best interest
Again with the esp set to off, it should not intervene unless there is driver error, and when it activates, the user is doing something wrong (lol unless driving in circles).
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,601
Likes: 28
From: Atlanta, GA
2008 C300 Sport 6 Speed Manual, 1953 Chevy Bel-Air, 2015 Audi allroad, 1963 Chevy Apache
Ok so u disagreed with most of what i said?
Now i understand your theory and i would just like to remind you again "the law of diminishing returns applies" now you are saying that wider then stock tires will not benefit the car? i feel sorry for your ignorants, wider tires will help the car, there is no way the tires a wide enough for this car.
U say the car is already stiff enough, well the car handles pritty darn well stock, i have installed h&r ss and the car feels alot and i mean alot better, why do you think that is?
Lastly if the turn is taken "properly" then you guys would know that mb did a very good job balancing the car because when on edge there is more oversteer then understeer again when the car handled PROPERLY.
For those of you who do not know how to, yess the car will underseer and this is probably for your best interest
Again with the esp set to off, it should not intervene unless there is driver error, and when it activates, the user is doing something wrong (lol unless driving in circles).
Now i understand your theory and i would just like to remind you again "the law of diminishing returns applies" now you are saying that wider then stock tires will not benefit the car? i feel sorry for your ignorants, wider tires will help the car, there is no way the tires a wide enough for this car.
U say the car is already stiff enough, well the car handles pritty darn well stock, i have installed h&r ss and the car feels alot and i mean alot better, why do you think that is?
Lastly if the turn is taken "properly" then you guys would know that mb did a very good job balancing the car because when on edge there is more oversteer then understeer again when the car handled PROPERLY.
For those of you who do not know how to, yess the car will underseer and this is probably for your best interest
Again with the esp set to off, it should not intervene unless there is driver error, and when it activates, the user is doing something wrong (lol unless driving in circles).
As far as setup ignorance, once again I will tell you, proper balanced handling is not as simple as stiffer springs and wider wheels. Excellent handling is a balance and sometimes what works perfectly for one situation will not work well for the next. A stiffer, shorter travel suspension would only have made that particular ramp a little worse, certainly no better.
Almost a Member!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
C300
I maybe wrong but ESP light only comes on at the major ESP interven. According to the ESP test on snowy road, could feel the ESP kick in to correct the fish tailing on the corner but not does light the ESP indicator if it was a brief interven at a time.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
This entire issue is one of balance and what you want from the car. The comment "properly" is BS. Yes you can induce oversteer but to suggest that, that is driving "PROPERLY" is presumptuous at best.
All these things are a compromise. Stiffer spring rates, stiffer damping, stiffer bushing (which would have a large effect - handling is hugely effected by compliance because it all gangs up against you at the limit - the reason American cars handle like crap - they all have far too much compliance), larger wheels with lower profile tyres, lowering & change in attitude, & the effects of increases in unsprung mass will all effect the ride quality of the vehicle & can all mess with the NVH engineering of the car. Don't even dare say they won't.
So - we have to decide whether we are prepared to give up some of what normal people consider "comfort" - then yes you can improve the handling. You can't do one without giving up the other to a degree that you have to decide on.
Another thing that amuses me on the forums - Is that most people that lower the suspension drop the tail too far & loose the nose down attitude of the vehicle. It might look good but it screws the high speed stability & CD by allowing too much air under the car which will develop a pressure wedge under the floorpan causing it to float around as speed increases.
Make sure that the attitude is nose down - tail up. It should not look like a 1965 Ford Mustang LOL
All these things are a compromise. Stiffer spring rates, stiffer damping, stiffer bushing (which would have a large effect - handling is hugely effected by compliance because it all gangs up against you at the limit - the reason American cars handle like crap - they all have far too much compliance), larger wheels with lower profile tyres, lowering & change in attitude, & the effects of increases in unsprung mass will all effect the ride quality of the vehicle & can all mess with the NVH engineering of the car. Don't even dare say they won't.
So - we have to decide whether we are prepared to give up some of what normal people consider "comfort" - then yes you can improve the handling. You can't do one without giving up the other to a degree that you have to decide on.
Another thing that amuses me on the forums - Is that most people that lower the suspension drop the tail too far & loose the nose down attitude of the vehicle. It might look good but it screws the high speed stability & CD by allowing too much air under the car which will develop a pressure wedge under the floorpan causing it to float around as speed increases.
Make sure that the attitude is nose down - tail up. It should not look like a 1965 Ford Mustang LOL
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 22, 2009 at 01:00 PM.
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
You can keep your ingnorance comment to yourself, thank you very much. I find it interesting that you assume I do not know how to drive and do not understand driving dynamics.
As far as setup ignorance, once again I will tell you, proper balanced handling is not as simple as stiffer springs and wider wheels. Excellent handling is a balance and sometimes what works perfectly for one situation will not work well for the next. A stiffer, shorter travel suspension would only have made that particular ramp a little worse, certainly no better.
As far as setup ignorance, once again I will tell you, proper balanced handling is not as simple as stiffer springs and wider wheels. Excellent handling is a balance and sometimes what works perfectly for one situation will not work well for the next. A stiffer, shorter travel suspension would only have made that particular ramp a little worse, certainly no better.
Ok so have you driven a w204 which has been lowered?
my guess in no, as lowering the car 1-2 inches has a big effect on handling, i do not know the ramp however unless there were potholes i would have to disagree with you. I do not mean to come across as negative however i feel you are ignorant/uneducated in terms of what springs and tires will do specifically the w204.
I do agree very very good handling is not as simple as i stated, however it is a good start, I have done both springs and tires/rims and honestly the car feels totally different, im not trying to start a argument, however if you lived close to me i would give you a ride so you can experience it for your self. and yes each situation on every car is different, however physics will always stay the same.
SO what do you think will increase the handeling capabilities of the car?
are you trying to say Mercedes-Benz did not engineer the car with handling in mind, rendering the car helpless?
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
This entire issue is one of balance and what you want from the car. The comment "properly" is BS. Yes you can induce oversteer but to suggest that, that is driving "PROPERLY" is presumptuous at best.
All these things are a compromise. Stiffer spring rates, stiffer damping, stiffer bushing (which would have a large effect - handling is hugely effected by compliance because it all gangs up against you at the limit - the reason American cars handle like crap - they all have far too much compliance), larger wheels with lower profile tyres, lowering & change in attitude, & the effects of increases in unsprung mass will all effect the ride quality of the vehicle & can all mess with the NVH engineering of the car. Don't even dare say they won't.
So - we have to decide whether we are prepared to give up some of what normal people consider "comfort" - then yes you can improve the handling. You can't do one without giving up the other to a degree that you have to decide on.
Another thing that amuses me on the forums - Is that most people that lower the suspension drop the tail too far & loose the nose down attitude of the vehicle. It might look good but it screws the high speed stability & CD by allowing too much air under the car which will develop a pressure wedge under the floorpan causing it to float around as speed increases.
Make sure that the attitude is nose down - tail up. It should not look like a 1965 Ford Mustang LOL
All these things are a compromise. Stiffer spring rates, stiffer damping, stiffer bushing (which would have a large effect - handling is hugely effected by compliance because it all gangs up against you at the limit - the reason American cars handle like crap - they all have far too much compliance), larger wheels with lower profile tyres, lowering & change in attitude, & the effects of increases in unsprung mass will all effect the ride quality of the vehicle & can all mess with the NVH engineering of the car. Don't even dare say they won't.
So - we have to decide whether we are prepared to give up some of what normal people consider "comfort" - then yes you can improve the handling. You can't do one without giving up the other to a degree that you have to decide on.
Another thing that amuses me on the forums - Is that most people that lower the suspension drop the tail too far & loose the nose down attitude of the vehicle. It might look good but it screws the high speed stability & CD by allowing too much air under the car which will develop a pressure wedge under the floorpan causing it to float around as speed increases.
Make sure that the attitude is nose down - tail up. It should not look like a 1965 Ford Mustang LOL
what im sayin is when maximum g-force is archived on a high speed corner there is more oversteer then understeer but both are still present when on edge however there is more oversteer.
Max grip is achieved when the car is handled "properly" (textbook)
i speak from experience, and that is the way the car handles.
And ya a agree most Americans do not push their car, and that is why the w204 is how it is. I feel the w204 is a amazing handling car for the comfort level.
Last edited by mikestyle; Apr 22, 2009 at 01:18 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 340
From: Charlotte, NC
Had: 1987 300TD, Had: 2004 C230 Sport Sedan, Have: 2014 E350 Sport, Have: 2019 S450
I don't think that anyone disputes that the handling can be improved through upgraded springs/shocks/swaybars/bushings/wheels/tires/etc.
The only point that I wanted to convey was that if the OP's car felt unstable at the speed he was traveling around the off-ramp, then he was probably into the "ESP-zone", and this is what gave him the impression of the car being unstable.
I've driven/ridden in several different models of Benzes, W123s, W124s, W211s, W203s, W204s, and all feel very stable at the limit - with the exception of when ESP is activated.
The W123/124 leaned and floated quite a bit more than the 203/204, but once bent into a corner, stability was not an issue.
My old 124 (300TD wagon) had very worn rear bushings. The thing would slither while traveling in a straight line, if the transmission shifted under full power (due to the torque change) - but once the slop in the bushings was taken up and the car was leaned over, it was as solid as the 203.
Certainly the OP can improve his car, but to be honest, there's not much need. The 203/204 can both handle so well that you are performing seriously illegal acts if you're getting one of them to slide or engage the ESP on the street.
The only point that I wanted to convey was that if the OP's car felt unstable at the speed he was traveling around the off-ramp, then he was probably into the "ESP-zone", and this is what gave him the impression of the car being unstable.
I've driven/ridden in several different models of Benzes, W123s, W124s, W211s, W203s, W204s, and all feel very stable at the limit - with the exception of when ESP is activated.
The W123/124 leaned and floated quite a bit more than the 203/204, but once bent into a corner, stability was not an issue.
My old 124 (300TD wagon) had very worn rear bushings. The thing would slither while traveling in a straight line, if the transmission shifted under full power (due to the torque change) - but once the slop in the bushings was taken up and the car was leaned over, it was as solid as the 203.
Certainly the OP can improve his car, but to be honest, there's not much need. The 203/204 can both handle so well that you are performing seriously illegal acts if you're getting one of them to slide or engage the ESP on the street.
Last edited by dmatre; Apr 22, 2009 at 02:36 PM.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
+1 dmatre - and to our friend from Toronto. The W204 in standard trim understeers at the limit - Max horizontal g - It is designed to do this - I have the entire design DVD when they dialed it in this way - I have confirmed this on track with all engines. The V6 understeers worse than the I4s. This is the way Benz have designed their cars for years. In contrast BMWs are terminal oversteerers which is why more of them get trashed in the hands of the uninitiated
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 340
From: Charlotte, NC
Had: 1987 300TD, Had: 2004 C230 Sport Sedan, Have: 2014 E350 Sport, Have: 2019 S450
Let us know what you find in the parking lot. . . .
Newbie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
2005 Honda Odyssey
Why would anyone take a turn 40 MPH faster than the posted speed limit? If you hit the guard rail or flipped over on the grass don't complaint how much it will cost you to repair your car. If you want to do a stunt like that, buy yourself a real sports car like a Porsche. You are asking for too much for a $35K Mercedes.
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
+1 dmatre - and to our friend from Toronto. The W204 in standard trim understeers at the limit - Max horizontal g - It is designed to do this - I have the entire design DVD when they dialed it in this way - I have confirmed this on track with all engines. The V6 understeers worse than the I4s. This is the way Benz have designed their cars for years. In contrast BMWs are terminal oversteerers which is why more of them get trashed in the hands of the uninitiated
ok i understand the w204 was made to understeer at low speeds, many manufactures do this including Lotus (arguably best handling car in the world) specifically s2 elise/exige. Over at lotustalk.com its common knowledge that the s2 will understeer, there are also remedies to "reduce understeer" by removing shims. However many experienced track drivers will tell you there is no need to remove them because if driven proper (text-book) the car will oversteer, and not understeer, same goes with my w204 c300.
SO i will say it again, if the car is driven proper (text book) at high speed the car will oversteer, and if anyone wants to come experience it for them self's, i look forward to meeting you.
Last edited by mikestyle; Apr 22, 2009 at 04:12 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 18,414
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
2007 E63
The ESP light will always flash when ESP needs to intervene. What you felt was probably ETS kicking in.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Not true unless induced or modified. Anyone can flick the steering & induce oversteer. That is not textbook driving buddy. It is how to drive around inherent understeer at high speed. The Porsche is the worlds greatest fast understeerer. You have to work damn hard to get one to oversteer i.e. flick the steering and power the tail out. That is not textbook driving.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 18,414
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
2007 E63
I only found these sway bars:
http://www.mkb-tuning.de/content/en/...&prod_gruppe=4
I was going up a spiral parking lot yesterday and I was a bit surprised too how easy the tires start squeaking. I thought a big part of it was because of the contis...
http://www.mkb-tuning.de/content/en/...&prod_gruppe=4
I was going up a spiral parking lot yesterday and I was a bit surprised too how easy the tires start squeaking. I thought a big part of it was because of the contis...
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
Not true unless induced or modified. Anyone can flick the steering & induce oversteer. That is not textbook driving buddy. It is how to drive around inherent understeer at high speed. The Porsche is the worlds greatest fast understeerer. You have to work damn hard to get one to oversteer i.e. flick the steering and power the tail out. That is not textbook driving.
OK smart ***, i was not talking about inducing anything, i was talking about when you are on EDGE the car will oversteer more then it will understeer. I get the feeling you have never even had the car on edge have you? and thanks for letting me know what is text book.... i had it all wrong then ehhhh, guess im just another one of those guys that has no idea what im talking about...try to read the whole thread first buddy before ranting.
thanks
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
I've had all the W204 models at Killarney - our local race track - at a press day right on the limit - MBSA could not care if we ruined the tyres. They had spares waiting. C180 Kompressor, C200 Kompressor, C220 CDi, C270CDi, C280 (your C300), C350 - in Classic Elegance & Avantgarde models & the C63 AMG. In a variety of manual & auto. These cars were obviously standard with tyre pressures raised for track. They all understeer at the limit & push their nose as they were designed to. They had a mixture of Conti SC3, Michelin PS2 & Pirelli Nero tyres on them. Many local race drivers also attended along with MB test drivers. There was universal agreement they understeer & that's what we all expected. Inducing oversteer is the fastest way through a corner.
I'm not ranting - I'm totally calm - I have read the entire thread & I disagree with you - I'm allowed to.
If you told Benz their cars oversteer standard they would laugh at you.
I'm not ranting - I'm totally calm - I have read the entire thread & I disagree with you - I'm allowed to.
If you told Benz their cars oversteer standard they would laugh at you.
Super Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 552
Likes: 9
From: Homeless
'20 Targa 4 DD, ' 18 Volvo S60 T6
I would check tire pressures. Other than that the tires are a compromise and should be upgraded to Z or greater rating for aggressive driving.
I bought my C after driving my colleagues C in Germany - the big diesel at 145 mph between Paris and Dusseldorf, hammered into on ramps etc at 30-100 mph and found it to be excellent - in relation to 530 and E 500 anyway.
It had Z rated tires. My stock tires are no match for Zs and feel mushy too - but comfortable.
I bought my C after driving my colleagues C in Germany - the big diesel at 145 mph between Paris and Dusseldorf, hammered into on ramps etc at 30-100 mph and found it to be excellent - in relation to 530 and E 500 anyway.
It had Z rated tires. My stock tires are no match for Zs and feel mushy too - but comfortable.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 192
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
C300 6speed
I've had all the W204 models at Killarney - our local race track - at a press day right on the limit - MBSA could not care if we ruined the tyres. They had spares waiting. C180 Kompressor, C200 Kompressor, C220 CDi, C270CDi, C280 (your C300), C350 - in Classic Elegance & Avantgarde models & the C63 AMG. In a variety of manual & auto. These cars were obviously standard with tyre pressures raised for track. They all understeer at the limit & push their nose as they were designed to. They had a mixture of Conti SC3, Michelin PS2 & Pirelli Nero tyres on them. Many local race drivers also attended along with MB test drivers. There was universal agreement they understeer & that's what we all expected. Inducing oversteer is the fastest way through a corner.
I'm not ranting - I'm totally calm - I have read the entire thread & I disagree with you - I'm allowed to.
If you told Benz their cars oversteer standard they would laugh at you.
I'm not ranting - I'm totally calm - I have read the entire thread & I disagree with you - I'm allowed to.
If you told Benz their cars oversteer standard they would laugh at you.
ok, well looks like we are not getting anywhere with this are we.....
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 340
From: Charlotte, NC
Had: 1987 300TD, Had: 2004 C230 Sport Sedan, Have: 2014 E350 Sport, Have: 2019 S450
I would check tire pressures. Other than that the tires are a compromise and should be upgraded to Z or greater rating for aggressive driving.
I bought my C after driving my colleagues C in Germany - the big diesel at 145 mph between Paris and Dusseldorf, hammered into on ramps etc at 30-100 mph and found it to be excellent - in relation to 530 and E 500 anyway.
It had Z rated tires. My stock tires are no match for Zs and feel mushy too - but comfortable.
I bought my C after driving my colleagues C in Germany - the big diesel at 145 mph between Paris and Dusseldorf, hammered into on ramps etc at 30-100 mph and found it to be excellent - in relation to 530 and E 500 anyway.
It had Z rated tires. My stock tires are no match for Zs and feel mushy too - but comfortable.
This means that the US cars are initially softer, stiffening as the spring compresses. The German cars are stiffer at the beginning, and maintain this rate all the way through (or at least that's what it felt like to me).
