jimmythegreek

My biggest problem is that the 2011's can have MM without the Harmonkardan and this is called audio 50. Its the same crap stock speakers but w MM screen and nav and all. Theres no parametric equilizer in the engineering menu, thus the sound is weak. I will say that the front speakers are super important in any change and a high end tweeter is essential. I can see how adakan's setup is decent especially w HK tweeters installed. My first try I left the stock tweets in and added the 62.9s, wasnt too much better. When I did the JL upgrade in front, I got the tweeters in and the components in doors w xover for 2 days before doing the rest of the amp wiring for front. Big difference at 3/4 volume over stock, but the MB headunit clipped and broke up after 3/4 volume, but it was nicer than stock. My thing is I crank my music all the time, I ride solo 99% of the time and I enjoy music. My advice is if you want a decent improvement go with just speakers, otherwise do an amp and wiring. The newer 5 channel amps are powerful and can do 4 highs and a mono sub, thats what I would do on a budget. I will say I cannot live without the JL DSP controller, its the most important part of my system, it really took the background noise and distortion out of all my music, best 200 I ever spent on this car........jimmy

HalCLK

Could you share a few more details.

Is this what you are describing?


http://www.shopatron.com/products/pr...292.0.0.0?pp=8&

Yonosai

Hello,

Do you know if this mod is applicable to the face-lifted model (s204 2011) with the same ease?

Does the Kappa 62.9i fits as perfectly?

Thx!

btw very interesting topic!

Acapulco Bill

For the front speakers its the Infinity Kappa 60.9. If you use the 62.9 the tweeters will be at your ankles and not in your ears as the door pillar tweeters provide. To enlarge the mount holes for the Kappa tweeters are well worth the effort.

The rear speakers require the shallow-mount 6032si.

As far as I know, MB has not changed the speaker system in the 2012 update. The 2014 may be a completely different story. In any case it is recommended that those purchasing a 2012 get the HK Logic 7 system.

MrBailey

First of all - Sincere thanks to Akadan, Bill and all you guys taking some much time out to help your fellow MB owners. Very few do, and your experience is extremely welcome. I have a question regarding the choice of Infinity speakers. Whilst I would consider myself and audiophile (having played in several bands and always going for good home hifi solutions) I'm practically clueless when it comes to ICE. I live in Madrid, and if I'm completely honest, I don't have a huge amount of confidence with the ICE providers I've come across here in Spain. When presenting Adakans solution in one of the more reputable "specialists" they have seriously me urged to go with focal speakers. Assuming there are suitably dimensioned speakers, (and having been told the cost is very similar - 500€ front/rear including installation) does anyone have any input puely on the Focal brand? It all seems "good quality for the price" in what I've found online however Infinity consistently get similar reviews as far as I can see. I just don´t want to end up agreeing to something that they have a good deal on if it's an inferior choice. Any feedback welcome...... and thanks again!

Acapulco Bill

@MrBailey - The Focal speakers for use in the W204 have two problems: first the basket and magnet are too deep for the space in the door, and second, they are 4 ohms, which will only deliver half the volume as the recommended Infinity Kappa series, using the Audio20 headunit.

Crutchfield's listing says these speakers will NOT fit in the C class. As for price, the Infinity Kappa 60.9's are available from Amazon for under $110 pounds the pair. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/INFINITY-KAP...072623&sr=8-10

As for the rear coaxial speakers, if the Infinity 6032si shallow-mounts are unavailable, these MAY just fit, however one should ask around before ordering:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Infinity-652...7072950&sr=1-3

Amazon offers free postage to Spain if it is over their minimum. lucky you, living in Madrid!!! We stay at the Hotel Miguel Angel when we go, but flying into or out of Barajas Airport is a cruel odyssey in itself, besides having lost bags there many times.

MrBailey

Thanks Bill, that's the impression I had from reading other posts and reviews online. I'll insist in the Kappas in that case ( I have comand APS but presumably ohm rating is equally valid - same amp right? -however there's no getting away from those Focal dimensions). I'l translate Akadans pdf to be on the safe side anyway. Inotice on one of your previous threads that the MB dealer agreed to do your install? They have previously refused to do so for me but I'll try another local one to see if I have some luck. I'd rather pay more and not end up with swiss chesse door panels.

Yes amazon has been a lifeline to me many times here. I completely agree, Barajas (Terminal 4 above all) can be a nightmare. I think their baggage delivery system is based on chaos theory. I know the Miguel Angel quite well actually, nice place. Madrid is like most cities in my opinion, wonderful to visit but frustrating at times to live in (although I'd choose it over London - my hometown- anyday). Acapulco must be wonderful. I have visited Mexico D.F. for business a couple of times but saw little more than the inside of taxis and hotels. Everyone in our company there goes to Acupulco for holidays it seems...

Again many thanks for your unending support on here Bill (not to mention fast responses!)

yualfred

I am planning a speaker upgrade for my 2010 GLK 350 4matic. It's the non HK system but with MM package. GLK has similar/identical sound system like C.

I have 3 choices:
1) Upgrade front 6.5 and tweeter with H/K parts. Keep the front crossover (looks like no body in the forum had found it and changed it) and rear speakers (as it's hellish to replace). This is like what Vic Viper did.
2) Replace with Infinity Kappa component 60.9cs in front and co-ax 62.9i in rear just like Akadan did. I think he also use the stock crossovers.
3) Same like 2) but with Focal access speakers instead. They have great crossovers, so its shame not to use them.

Price: 1) and 2) $250 > 3) $350. Easy to install: 1) > 2) > 3). Sound quality upgrade: 3) > 2) > 1)?

Any suggestions?

Acapulco Bill

@yuafred - comments on your options:

1).- the HK speakers are REALLY inefficient and require both high watts AND severe equalization, which the stock audio unit cannot possible drive above a whisper. The door woofers in particular are made to NOT reproduce below 100 Hz to prevent interference with the special subwoofer under the rear seat in the HK option. Result: no sound and NO low bass.

2).- The Infinity Kappas both include huge, professional crossovers (the stock MB speakers which a Hong Kong MB rep, where they are sourced, said they cost $1 for ALL of them, and just use a tiny NP cap as the crossover). Included are separate xovers for the 60.9cs and the 62.9 coaxial have an outboard cable-attached xover. Plus their high efficiency will output peaks of over 114 dB. Set the level switches to "0 dB", this is important.

3).- The Focal Access (I understand the best ones the 165 A3 are now discontinued) only have an efficiency of 90 dB/watt, meaning that the Infinity Kappas will be TWO TO FOUR TIMES LOUDER for the same watt input (3 to 6 dB). While a decent speaker,the Focals need more power the stock audio headunit cannot provide, its about 25 watts per channel x4, and the Focals are happiest with at least 50 to 100 watts per channel.

yualfred

Thanks Acapulco Bill.

1) agree with your comment in theory, however, Mr Vic Viper was very happy with the HK upgrade. If I trust his judgement of sound quality, then these assumptions must be true: a. Though inefficient compared to stock, the HU still can pump more power to drive HK speakers. b. In logic 7 system, the HU block the low freq to the speaker, but in Audio 50 full range sound is sent to the front, the speaker itself can reproduce below 100hz better than stock, thus better sound.

2) So you recomm this to be the right choice?

3) Focal access is 92db, vs Kappa 95db, so about half of sound pressure. I did see other people drive it directly from HU and get very good sound. But agree there is risk here.

Acapulco Bill

@ yualfred:

1).- Infinity is part of the HK group, as such each division retains their identity, local management and most of their R&D and manufacturing capabilities. That said, the HK system woofers in particular are of an entirely different pedigree than the Infinity woofers, more like the Focals actually. A poly cone with a butyl surround, medium-size magnet with a large voice-coil gap, all geared for higher power inputs and higher excursions due to the huge built-in equalization engineered as part of the HK amp/speaker interface.

The HK system tweeters (as I understand the HK system) are directly fed from the HK headunit because an electronic crossover provides an 18dB/octave slope as opposed to a 6 to 12/dB octave slope with conventional crossovers (chokes, caps and coils). One must wonder if a crossover is available from MB along with the HK speakers? As mentioned, the bass amp is fed via fiber optic in the HK system to reduce the possibility of voltage noise or fluxuations, which would cause high excursions of the small 5 1/2" subwoofers with possible damage to these and the amp itself.

Remembering the 25 watt limit per channel of the stock headunit, the intentional inefficiency of the HK system speakers plus the need of complicated equalization in order for these to obtain flat reproduction, IMO eliminates using the HK system speakers without their associated electronics (e.g. replacing the headamp also).

2).- The Infinity system has a long OEM car installation history, some vehicles I have owned came with the Infinity system and EMIT flat ribbon tweeters. Accurate they were, but a little too "airy" for my taste, like the B&O system offered in some Mercs, not nearly as good as the HK.

The current Infinity Kappa series has huge magnets, small voice coil gaps equating to high efficiency, and uses a novel woven woofer cone material that is 10 times stiffer than the poly (less cone flex and distortion). Given the stock headunit's low distortion but limited 25 wpc output, the 60.9's seem a perfect match for the front speakers, and the crossover is an audio engineer's dream.

HOWEVER THERE IS AN ERROR about the REAR speakers, you absolutely want the Infinity 6032si Shallow Mount speakers for the rear, the magnet structure of the others are just too deep. The axial tweeter can even be tilted upwards so passengers get better highs.

So the Infinity Kappa was my choice, and after having them installed for nearly 2 years and adding a small self-powered sub under the rear shelf, have no major complaints, Except for not having the HK system in the first place. Except for that.

BTY when you go to Amazon.com and search for "Harman Kardon Mercedes replacement speakers" guess what comes up?


3).- As for the Focal Access, the efficiency spec I read for the 165's was 90 db/1 watt, but that is not the issue. Even with a 92 dB spec, why settle for 3 dB less sound for "3 dB more money"?

As a parting comment, in high quality audio one has to be prepared to throw "brand recognition" out the window first, as there surely are some surprises. The last two home systems purchased, without any budget limitations, totaled under $1000 for BOTH systems, and one would be challenged to do critical listening and find a single sonic fault with either of them. I am sorry that brands are just SO important, one always identifies a beer playing against an insurance group in any sports final. So forget the brand names, and use God's gift to judge sound - your brain located between your two ears, ATTACHED TO THE HEART.

Scat01

Sorry for the very poor pic, but this was a quick phone pic I took of the crossover that comes with the Kappa 60.9 front components. Also, the giant tweeters that replace the puny stockers sound amazing...great upgrade, great sound.

yualfred

Thanks. Did you replace the factory crossover? How did you do that?

yualfred

Bill,

1) I agree with your theory 100%, but somehow it didn't explain other member's result. This is from someone after he replaced the stock with HK speakers but feed from stock HU: 'And the difference in sound is really significant, I didn't think I would hear an improvement this big, the increase in bass is the primary improvement, and the overall sound is a lot fuller, especially in combination with the h/k tweeters.'.
Life had told us always keep an open mind. As you said, listen and trust your ears, I was hoping someone actually hear both the HK and Kappa from stock HU can compare.

2) Don't quite understand why the matching rear is not 62.9i but 6032si, which is not even Kappa.

3) Sometimes quality is more important than quantity. I'm not saying Focal access is better than Kappa, or the other way. As I don't have access to these speakers side by side, thus open for other people's comment. I would like to have comment from listening rather than spec comparison, which you know in audiophile world, doesn't usually mean a lot.

In the end, I agree with your recommendation of Kappa, I just auditioned it a few hours ago, it sounded excellent. Though I didn't have either HK nor Focal in comparison. My motive for HK replacement was really due to its easiness to install. But again, I agree the result is questionable.

Interesting to hear you got two $1000 home systems. Not that you can't get a good system with $1000, but you had 'limitless budget'. Depends on what your need is and when diminishing marginal benefit starts to click in, $1000 is still an unusually low number. But again, its what suites you the best. Ok, it's a totally different topic now....

Acapulco Bill

@yualfred: There are NO crossovers on the stock MB system, it is just a tiny non-polarzed cap stuck on the back of the hard dome polycarbonate tweeter, as compared to the Infinity high frequency drivers and separate crossover. Some photos are attached. Judge for yourself, although the real proof is in the listening.

The 6032si shallow mounts are the correct speakers for the rear, the 62.9's woofer basket are just too deep to fit. The efficiency and sound are the same. Save yourself a hassle.

As a symphony orchestra conductor and also having owned a pro sound company and custom loudspeaker manufacturing business, the "home system" in the 1970's cost about $50k. With computerized speaker profiling of the 1980's combined with vastly improved transistor amplifier topologies, one could have "more for less". Today, with millions of foreclosed homes and most major symphony orchestras in bankruptcy, there is hardly any "stereophile audio", and the most popular systems are hooked-up to watch NetFlix or cater to the "boom and tizz" brigade.

Since you asked, to get an orientation on what quality sound can be, take your iPod Classic with your favorite tunes loaded in Apple Lossless (What? Only MP3's? Shame on you!) to find a B&W Zeppelin Air. Just stick in the iPod, stand about 3 feet in front with the Zeppelin at ear level and crank it up. Really. About $600. The other audio surprise can be found occasionally on eBay, the Xbox Spherex 5.1 surround system. It has five 360 degree pods and a subwoofer, 480 distortionless watts from six separate amplifiers and a remote which controls everything. About $300 new in the box if you can find them. Bought 4 systems just to have them around, although my children have stolen all but one. Compared to my audiophile reference system, the bass is a bit too fat, losing dynamic transients on tympani for example (not dry enough), but above 100 Hz, I have no preference. MAYBE a soprano has less breathiness. In any case my reference system has fallen into disuse, it is last century technology, and don't even ask what it originally cost.

TWO TIPS: After the Infinity's are installed, PLEASE do NOT crank them up right away, as around 20 hours of moderate volume playing will be needed to break-in the woofer surrounds and HF drivers. After that, crank 'em up, its amazing what 25 watts can do with high efficiency drivers. the other TIP is to re-rip your original CD collection in Apple Lossless, as MP3's can be 1/10th the size because the encoding throws away 90% of the bits. Why throw 90% of the sound away? Buy an iPod Classic which has an excellent analog output section (the MB headunit turns this signal into digital and then back to analog again, quite transparently) and use ONLY Apple Lossless. Even on the stock MB system, the difference in quality is quite noticeable, especially in the bass. And buy only Apple Lossless format on iTunes, it costs the same, and one can always convert it into the best quality MP3 if needed (like for an iPod Shuffle).

jcreal

Thanks AcapulcoBill, Acada, Vic Viper and everyone else. thanks to this thread it only took me about an hour to know what I need.

I need somw help though.

I have a 2011 - C300 Sport - unfortunately WITHOUT the HK upgrade. I have the Audio 20. I see that for the last 2yrs most threads on this are still recommending Kappa 60.9 for the front and either the 62.9 or the 6032si for the rear.

I'd like to simply improve sound without any modifaction that will alter the main console and controls/knobs.

1) Are the Infinnity still the best speakers for this? Are there any new/better speaker options tha fit in easily as the infinity's?

2) I understand several people have installed the 62.9 in the REAR without major issues, even though, crutchfieled and other folks say they don't fit. Apparently there's just a bit more involved in the install. Can someone tell me the acoustical difference between the 62.9 and the 6032? Leaving price aside, which speaker is better for the REAR?

3) Has anyone added an AMP and kept the Main Console functions and knobs/controls?

4) For those of you that added a subwoofer. Please share the best location and install tips that keeep distortion/rattling to a minimum.

Acapulco Bill

@jcreal: you questions were answered in another thread here:


https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...-new-post.html

pmpalma

I am so cofused...

In layman terms, say I would like to upgrade my speakers on a non HK Logic 2010 C class, what would I need for both front and back? Easy plug and play with nothing else to do but install the speaker without cutting nor drilling.

Sorry for asking, but when I see cross-overs, tweeters..... I'm getting afraid

Acapulco Bill

@pmpalma: Just replacing the speakers for this upgrade, for instance with the Infinity Kappas, is quite simple and straight forward, and offers truly substantial improvement. Replacing both the front and back is recommended as then all speakers will have the same "tonality" or sound quality. If only the front ones are replaced, the rear stock speakers will have much less volume and there will be no acoustic space of sound coming from anywhere other than the front, which sounds rather flat (like an old car radio that only had a speaker in the front).

So replacing all 4 is recommended, although if you wish, its OK just to replace the front.

Sincity

There is a lot of info here. To be clear, the Kappa component system for the fronts drop-in and you need to enlarge the stock tweeter mount to accomadate the Kappa tweeters. Run new wiring from the crossover to the woofer and tweeters and the input from the OEM wiring is wired into the input of the Infinity xover. Did I get it right?

Acapulco Bill

There is already wiring from the woofers to the tweeters from the stock speakers in place in the front doors. The crossover can be left on the floor of the front door, using some silicon caulk or a hot-glue gun to keep it from rattling.

Please remember to leave the crossover switch on 0 dB, and NOT -6 dB, to obtain best performance (the rear coaxials also have a switch that needs to be set to 0 dB). Best of luck and great listening after 30 hours of breakin.

Sincity

That is even simpler. I'm going to replace the fronts sometime soon and then figure out the rears later. The stock speakers just suck.

Tks Bill.

Acapulco Bill

Actually the rear replacement is just so easy, for the $51.00 they cost, why not just do it right away? The lastest price from Amazon:

pmpalma

@ Acapulco Bill: Thx for the info. So, front it's as simple as plug and play. Got that. Rear ones, would need what? I'm sorry, I'm just confused and wondering if perhaps, I just should have someone do it. But love the challenge and the gratification of a job well done.

What front model would you suggest, again, a simple plug and play? Same for the rear, plug and play or with minimal change.

Thx for helping

Acapulco Bill

Actually the rears are plug and play. The fronts require about 5 minutes each tweeter with a Dremel tool to enlarge the hole with a mini drum sander tool. A project that after you hear the huge change you can say to yourself "I did this myself".