safesphere

Apparently only five C-300 units will be made in Germany for the USA trough the end of this year. The rest - in South Africa. All new allocations for 2012 are coming also for South Africa, none for Germany. No more German "Mercedes for the poor"?

Does anyone know where the new C350 4Matic Coupe will be made coming to the USA in mid April?

(This is NOT a quality comparison post. No "African cars are also cars" replies please.)

Stevedotmil

Gotta make back some of that green spent on development. Cheap labor.

Glyn M Ruck

SA always had the US W204 supply contract with top up from Germany.

The Coupe 4Matics will initially be built in Germany. I suppose this could change but I doubt it.

W205 production for USA moves to Tuscaloosa 2014 & South Africa will back up the Chinese & Vietnamese plants for Asia from W205 onwards.

safesphere

Thank you Glyn, I appreciate the info!

DCubed

The E. London, SA plant did win a JD Power Platinum award for quality. My old '11 C was built at that plant and it felt just like any other Mercedes, now for my '11 E BTC that likes to make noise from the center armrest/storage area any time anyone uses it as an armrest is a whole other issue.

stan229

this may be a silly question but how can I tell from the VIN where my w204 was built?

safesphere

It is not about quality. You pay for the name. For some "Made in Germany" is more important than the three-pointed star.

Glyn M Ruck

It says where it is made on the doorjam sticker/plate.

We have realised that VIN's can on occasions be confusing.

Glyn M Ruck

I hear you. That attitude tends to come from the ill informed. You can have a German one built with majority Turkish labour or an SA one with our labour. Quality is generally equal although I prefer SA leather & have seen some poor paintwork on a few German built units. Bad orange peel.

Funnily enough if I could choose a plant for C Class build it would probably be Vietnam. I would be very happy with a car assembled in Vietnam. Their attention to detail in that plant is stunning - almost fanatical.

All that said my SA built W203 is now 8 years old. Tight as a drum. Not a rattle or squeak. Total repairs - 2 X front castor bushes under warranty - known problem, one 5 cent tranny plug crush washer, RHS rear brake lamp globe & one fuse (No 52 underspec'ed & uprated to 20A from 15A)

EDIT: Obviously standard servicing, tyres & brake pads. Battery is original & load tests fine much to my surprise.

Vic in Wisc

My 2011 SA built C class 4matic is 11 months old and has only 6K miles but has been perfect.Absolutely zero problems.Wish my old BMWs,Saabs,Audis and Porshes and been as trouble and rattle free.

safesphere

It comes from the established social perception. If you will, it comes from the ill informed public opinion. The buyer may be well aware, but "Made in Africa" just does not bring the "Wow!" response from everyone else around. "Made in Germany" is bigger than MB. It is the culture of building superior cars. Just like Portuguese port or Egyptian cotton.

IGB

Well, if you're going to use that analogy, then let me offer "South African Diamonds" to add the list!

And if the world's most prized possessions can come from SA, and they come with sufficient quality and clarity to make them the best, I'm inclined to assume that they can do a decent job on building a car!

safesphere

Good idea! Perhaps a few sparkles on the dashboard or steering wheel would make these builds very popular But no, the diamonds are found, not made. This all comes down to price. If we pay extra for the name and "Made in Germany" is a part of it, then dealers should offer a discount for the SA builds. I wonder if they do and how much. However, to avoid this loss, MB does not offer a choice: there are no German C-Class allocations anymore. If you want a C-Class, it is from SA, take it or pay even more for the E-Class instead.

Sportstick

With all due respect, the assumption expressed is baseless. Nowhere is there a presumption that all MBs (or BMW, Audi, or VW) have final assembly plants in Germany, just as Toyota, Honda,etc. are not all assembled in Japan, nor Hyundai or Kia in Korea, nor Ford/GM/Chrysler in the U.S.. We live in a world economy, where parts and subassemblies, even for those vehicles assembled in home countries, may be imported. Design work may be shared among suppliers or corporate divisions in international locations. Some MB exterior work is done in Southern California; does that earn a discount as well? If not, why is assembly of completed parts more important than the design of the vehicle? All M Classes come from Alabama...another discount? If Germany is essential, must the work be by Germans? Note the post above that points out the volume of immigrant Turkish laborers at German plants. This entire notion can extend beyond any possible logical constraints.

The issue here is not the irrelevant geography of the design studios, the engineering team, the tier I, II, or III suppliers, nor the final assembly plant. What makes a Mercedes-Benz a Mercedes-Benz is the vision, philosophy, and standards of the company behind the brand. If the final product meets or exceeds the expectations contained in the "Brand Promise", the price charged properly reflects the product deliverables.

Ron Jr

My 08 was a German build while my 11 is SA. I see no difference in build quality for a matter of fact my 11 has yet to go in for any type of service (A is coming soon) mean while my 08 had been in for some warrenty work by this point. I no longer have the 08 logbook I left it in the glove box for the next owner unless they threw it away.

safesphere

As I stated in my opening post, this is not about quality. This is about name. For some people Germany is not a part of the MB name. For others it still is. Some want to drive a German car, even if African cars were better. And a car assembled in Africa is not a German car.

Very good point, Sir. This is exactly why the origin of the engine, transmission, and the content % of the German parts are also on the sticker. And some would not buy an MB, unless all of the above states Germany.

You do not pay premium for these names, except for some premium models. For example, Honda's flagship Acura RL is still made in Japan and some people would not buy it otherwise.

If there is a choice between Germany and Alabama, then yes, Alabama should be discounted for a number of reasons. But if all of them are made there, then the concept of a discount does not apply, because there is nothing to compare against.

All we can hope for is that only the qualified people are hired, they absorb the existing production culture and follow the established quality standards. Otherwise the name would be ruined and no one would pay extra for it. In fact, this happened a few years back during the Daimler-Chrysler time when the quality got so bad it was horrifying. In other words, there still is a hope that people in control there know what they are doing and can get it done.

Well, the price also reflects supply and demand. If there are more SA cars than German cars of this model, then surely one could get a better deal on what is in a bigger supply and lesser demand. But I sense you did not get your discoint

Please do not get me wrong. I am not trying to convince you against your ways. If Germany is not a part of the MB name in your case, good for you. However it still is for some people, so please be kind and not try to convince them against their ways either.

Sportstick

1) My comment was not about quality; it referred to your premise that geography of final assembly has any impact on pricing, which does not happen for MB, BMW, nor will happen when Audi starts building cars in the U.S.

2) The premium on MB and its competitors is based on the market segment, not geography. There are many competitive cars at various price points from different countries which provide essentially the same functional purposes as MB cars. A combination of content and market positioning move MB into a premium segment and drive premium pricing. The very same C Class is far less prestigious in Germany simply because it is not positioned as a luxury vehicle to the same degree as in the U.S......even the ones built right there!

3) Automotive vehicle pricing is based on the competitive segment. Whether an M Class, for example, originates in Alabama or elsewhere has no effect on pricing for comparably equipped BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, etc. SUV vehicles. M Class pricing is strategically set with consideration to competitive base price positions, typical positions (as usually sold), and differences in content between competitors. As BMW builds more SUVs in the US, its pricing does not change for geography either, and their growing sales indicate there is no market resistance to their point of origin.

4) MB quality problems were of their own making and are well known by many forum members in the early 2000s for earlier C and E Class vehicles. Chrysler had no effect, and this is demonstrable through the infiltration of Chrysler by top level Germans, with essentially no reciprocal American activity. Daimler drained Chrysler of engineering funds for their own benefit, required draconian cost reductions, and drove already mediocre products into much poorer quality. Only since Daimler left, restructuring occurred, and Fiat arrived with a productive and positive philosophy, has the company started to recover.

5) The vast majority of C Class owners have no idea where their car was made, so there is no measurable demand for one plant versus another. My car was built in Germany.

6) This whole forum is about discussion, so that's what we are doing! No ad hominem attacks, no name calling, so we are having a kind, but lively debate. My position, after 26 years in the automobile industry, remains that the very few buyers who have convinced themselves that the location of final assembly matters to the point of affecting pricing have a particularly heightened emotional need that is unrealistic and will never be satisfied in the marketplace.

Much more important than final assembly is who did the original design of functional and aesthetic components of the car. The plants assemble what they are handed, and the better the original design, the fewer plant variables come into play. Why do you focus on the assembly plant and not question who is doing the fundamental work which guides what the car turns out to be?

If you have a real basis for a contrary point, have at it! We're not all here to agree...that gets boring very quickly.

IGB

Sounds to me like safesphere cares more about what people think of his car instead of caring about the standard of quality that is MB.

To each his own!

Glyn M Ruck

Outstanding & considered post as usual

There is no such thing as a 100% German Mercedes in the conventional product range. Parts are from all over the world. Engine & transmissions are generally German but some of their components are not. Parts are produced in Poland & Hungary etc. About 50% of the leather used comes from SA. Guess where that elegant Merc hood star is now produced? It is made in Turkey. I have a new one in it's OE packaging sitting in front of me. SA built Benzes are about 50% by weight local content. They are not built from CKD kits. And so it goes.

Benz is a Brand & Design. This is protected by QC in the plants.

I'm not going to repeat what Sportstick has said.

We have a few owners with post facelift W203's with German VIN's that were actually built in Brazil.

safesphere

Because it was the original topic of this thread. It was never about which geography was better or worse, but simply about which model was made where, because some people want to drive a German car, not African car designed in Germany, regardless of the quality. Although I do agree that most Americans are not aware of where their things are made. And so it seams we have beaten this poor African horse to death

On discounts, you are probably right, but I will ask my dealer next week.

safesphere

Sorry, IGB, but as you can see in my profile, I drive American designed and made Acura TL-S. Also, no one here has stated that SA cars were actually better than German. So what is it to your own other than an uncalled for personality attack?

safesphere

Glyn, this is interesting. In what way do you feel the SA leather is better? Softer perhaps? How can I tell the difference?

Generally, regular leather on MB (like C or E Class) is not inspiring. Dealers hate to stock it, as most people prefer to go with MB Tex for nearly 2 grand less.

However, personally I prefer leather even of this quality and even at such an extra expense. Is there any way to request SA leather in the order?

Thanks for your help!

Sportstick

Nah....this is debate....welcome back and enjoy the game!

Anyway, I think your comment helps make my point. I have not discussed "better or worse", per your original post request. I am challenging your method of defining a car's birthplace. You are defining a car based on it's point of final assembly when you call it "African" simply because that last step is located there. One of my points is that so much happens in the design and development of a vehicle long before volume production rolls off the line, that this is not the critical identifying factor. The design and development is the birthright...not where the plant happens to be. Perhaps because you have spent your automotive life as a consumer and I have been a manufacturer, we see this differently, but the plant location is the least salient issue. I can get a good ol' Chevy built in a plant anywhere in the world, and it will drive, feel, and look just as American as the one you already know (for better or worse!). For a car to be African, show me the engineering staff, the design staff, the testing labs, the test track...if that is in Africa, then you have an African car, no matter where they build it.

safesphere

I do not disagree on the substance, but you go way deeper than the superficial perception I am referring to, which is only about what is on the label. You are trying to answer a different question, not the one asked. My question was simply where these cars are built, but you are analyzing why people care where they are built. They simply want to see "Made in Germany" istead of figuring out the complicated design, test, component, and production process behind the "Made in Africa" label.

Sportstick

The question asked was actually just about the source of the coupe, per your original post. I think we got past that a while back and moved on to the bigger issue? I was trying to analyze why you care where they are built, as you seem to think the answer impacts the value (price) of the car!!

If we now agree that the label generates a "superficial perception", we can agree to dismiss its importance. For the superficial perceivers out there who are hung up on such status issues, I suggest dismissing the importance of their approval and enjoying the car for yourself for what it is. There is nothing complicated in figuring out all that I referenced. Just look at the name and you know it's a Mercedes-Benz, for all that that means