Go Back  MBWorld.org Forums > Mercedes-Benz Sedans > C-Class (W204)
New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ?? >

New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ??

Notices
C-Class (W204) 2008 - 2014: C180K, C200K, C230, C280, C300, C350, C200CDI, C220CDI, C320CDI
Old 06-10-2015, 06:49 PM
How-Tos on this Topic
Last edit by: IB Advertising
See related guides and technical advice from our community experts:

Browse all: Engine Diagnostics
Print Wikipost

New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ??

 
Old 01-14-2012, 07:59 PM
  #26  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
No JC - you need the extra additive dose in the 229.5 product for valvetrain protection on a gasoline engine. Diesels can get away with lower ash/less additive treat because they do not run aggressive cams & are rev limited by diesel combustion speed.

The VI improver dose in a multigrade oil is huge compared with the max 1.6% additive ash clamp on 229.5 oils.

Mobil 1 0W-40 Euro only has 1.3% Ash as an example.

Typical Properties

Mobil 1 0W-40 Value
Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 40 C 75
@ 100 C 13.5
Viscosity Index 185
MRV at -40C, cP (ASTM D4684) 31,000
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150C, (ASTM D4683) 3.8
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896) 11.8
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 1.3
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4981) 0.1
Flash Point, C (ASTM D92) 230
Density @15.6 C, g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.85
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 01-15-2012, 11:55 AM
  #27  
Member
 
DonjuanOriginal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
2008 C300 6speed, 2002 Xtreme Blazer, 2007 SS Trailblazer(Sold)
Great and shocking thread. Just a few questions. Shell Canada and Usa i'm guessing. Claim nitrogen enriched fuels. Does this help the problem (using 91 octane). And someone I know recommended using Mobil 1 Esp 5w30 sometimes just to help clean emissions in a petrol engine does this help the DI problem. Thanks for the thread topic. Many like me wonder about the present and future of DI engines.
DonjuanOriginal is offline  
Old 01-15-2012, 01:03 PM
  #28  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
The Shell fuel will in no way be better than any major in this regard.

The Mobil 1 ESP formulation is not better than the 0W-40 Euro formulation which I consider their best offering for Benz.
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 01-15-2012, 02:18 PM
  #29  
Member
 
DonjuanOriginal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
2008 C300 6speed, 2002 Xtreme Blazer, 2007 SS Trailblazer(Sold)
Thanks For the Reply. Cheers!
DonjuanOriginal is offline  
Old 01-15-2012, 05:26 PM
  #30  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
C300
Originally Posted by MBRedux View Post
Only VW/Audi have successfully designed a new dual injector system (as seen in the drawing above) that helps eliminate the carbon build-up problem.
IS350 has had similar setup since 06.
raceway is offline  
Old 01-15-2012, 07:19 PM
  #31  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by raceway View Post
IS350 has had similar setup since 06.
... My bad! I meant to add "among high end German Auto builders"... sometimes I type without proof reading...
MBRedux is offline  
Old 01-16-2012, 12:34 PM
  #32  
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Originally Posted by Glyn M Ruck View Post
Deposits in the inlet tract are mainly captive breather related, somewhat effected by gas quality
I read an excellent technical report for a na engine, complete with data, that showed maximum ring bypass occured at high manifold conditions, such as idle or lift off at high rpm, where the rings are "unloaded" at TDC + cam overlap condition. This is were a well designed OCC comes in (my 81 Porsche924T came with an OEM oil CatchCan/oil-separator). Also, see gas additive below.

Back of valve tulip is breather, gasoline & VI improver (polymer) burn-on from oil down the guide. Remember with valve overlap on these engines you get some combustion blow back onto inlet valves & minor ring blow-by effects oil charge which effects crap in captive breather vapours.
Response:

Catch Can in captive breather system
Techron added to gasoline
Synthetic Single wt oil with no VI improver.

Sinle grade synthetic oil would be off the 229.5 list, but could be used with 20W for cold winter, 30W mild summer, 40W for relentlessly hot Florida summers. 5K / 6mo oil changes req'd.

Just theorising here, NO PROBLEM has been proven at this point.

.
kevink2 is offline  
Old 01-16-2012, 02:43 PM
  #33  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
You are spot on in all regards & a monograde oil would certainly help. The blowby with rings unloaded is high.

EGR is the only other real major issue & there clean fuel becomes critical if we want to control NOx.
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 01-19-2012, 09:53 AM
  #34  
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
There is a good forum thread on GDI issues at "bob the oil guy, rip"

GDI systems, Carbon on Valves, Seafoam manifold injection treatment, etc

Note that Mazda had a big issue with GDI turbos back in ~2006, but now offers a similar engine in some of the new SUV's. Wonder if they learned something?

Glyn, any info from your old contacts on this?

.
kevink2 is offline  
Old 01-19-2012, 10:16 AM
  #35  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
There have been a number of side by side comparisons over on Vortex using Seafoam, BG Products etc. Sadly neither did anything because adding these products to your fuel never gets to touch the carbonized valves in a Direct Injected engine. Some even opened an inlet into their intake manifold where the application of these products were introduced manually. Not only did they cause significant life reduction to the O2 sensors and catalytic converter(s), they were proven to be of no benefit to carbon reduction or removal whatsoever as the blue/white exhaust smoke finally cleared.

What is clear is that once the carbon starts to accumulate, within the first few weeks of ownership, it can be very difficult to remove it all at once, say at around 20K mile intervals, despite VAG's attempt to reduce these deposits by altering the cone shape of the intake valves. Only the continuous cleaning effect of detergent fuels has any real benefit, thus the reason VAG has now redesigned their fuel delivery system incorporating a dual injection set-up.

Last edited by MBRedux; 01-19-2012 at 12:36 PM.
MBRedux is offline  
Old 01-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #36  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by kevink2 View Post
There is a good forum thread on GDI issues at "bob the oil guy, rip"

GDI systems, Carbon on Valves, Seafoam manifold injection treatment, etc

Note that Mazda had a big issue with GDI turbos back in ~2006, but now offers a similar engine in some of the new SUV's. Wonder if they learned something?

Glyn, any info from your old contacts on this?

.
Kevin. The boss of our Techcen in Europe has delegated it to one of his people. As I'm asking a favour I have to be patient. I'll get an answer. In the not too distant future I hope.
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 01-20-2012, 12:16 PM
  #37  
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Originally Posted by MBRedux View Post
There have been a number of side by side comparisons over on Vortex using Seafoam, BG Products etc. Sadly neither did anything because adding these products to your fuel never gets to touch the carbonized valves in a Direct Injected engine. Some even opened an inlet into their intake manifold where the application of these products were introduced manually. Not only did they cause significant life reduction to the O2 sensors and catalytic converter(s), they were proven to be of no benefit to carbon reduction or removal whatsoever as the blue/white exhaust smoke finally cleared....
How was it introduced to the manifold .. by a brake booster hose? Did they use a 2 step method, light flow while idleing, then overwhelm, stall, and let sit? How many VAG ( I've had 2) guys tried this method? Just asking

Seafoam now has a spray that is introduced infront of the TB, for even distribution to all runners:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjXVi...layer_embedded

I could see starting this treatment before heavy deposites start.

It's funny to read some of the seafoam reviews, where massive exh smoke if proof of effectiveness ... where it really means nothing.
kevink2 is offline  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:34 PM
  #38  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by kevink2 View Post
How was it introduced to the manifold .. by a brake booster hose? Did they use a 2 step method, light flow while idleing, then overwhelm, stall, and let sit? How many VAG ( I've had 2) guys tried this method? Just asking

Seafoam now has a spray that is introduced infront of the TB, for even distribution to all runners:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjXVi...layer_embedded

I could see starting this treatment before heavy deposites start.

It's funny to read some of the seafoam reviews, where massive exh smoke if proof of effectiveness ... where it really means nothing.
Yes, 2 step... pure junk IMO.
MBRedux is offline  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:35 PM
  #39  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by Glyn M Ruck View Post
Kevin. The boss of our Techcen in Europe has delegated it to one of his people. As I'm asking a favour I have to be patient. I'll get an answer. In the not too distant future I hope.
Hey Glyn.... any word yet?
MBRedux is offline  
Old 02-01-2012, 09:33 PM
  #40  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by MBRedux View Post
Hey Glyn.... any word yet?
MBRedux is offline  
Old 02-02-2012, 09:04 AM
  #41  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
There will be no further comment from me on this issue. Please be understanding - this is a social forum. I suggest you ask Benz directly. I'm sure you will find their comments reassuring.

Let them comment directly. Sorry for late reply - our internet connection with the US was down yesterday for 18 hours.
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 02-02-2012, 02:55 PM
  #42  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by Glyn M Ruck View Post
There will be no further comment from me on this issue. Please be understanding - this is a social forum. I suggest you ask Benz directly. I'm sure you will find their comments reassuring.

Let them comment directly. Sorry for late reply - our internet connection with the US was down yesterday for 18 hours.
Well no offense Glyn but didn't you say earlier that you would look into it and report back?

Nonetheless, I did call MB tech and they also had no comment... So it's clear that either they have no information, or they wish not to reveal anything that may hurt sales. I was hoping they would have revealed a technological breakthrough or something for I do love the new DI 3.5L engine!!

Oh well... we'll soon see in about 20,000 miles if these new engines start caking up or not.

Last edited by MBRedux; 02-02-2012 at 02:58 PM.
MBRedux is offline  
Old 02-02-2012, 03:18 PM
  #43  
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
I'm heading to the Phila AutoShow. I'll bug the MB guys/gals there.
kevink2 is offline  
Old 02-02-2012, 03:22 PM
  #44  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Originally Posted by kevink2 View Post
I'm heading to the Phila AutoShow. I'll bug the MB guys/gals there.
Good idea! I'm going to the Wash DC show tonight, then to the NY International Auto Show in the spring.... I'll do the same at both!
MBRedux is offline  
Old 02-02-2012, 10:56 PM
  #45  
MBWorld Fanatic!
 
MBRedux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nissan GT-R BE / '12 Ducati-1199 Panigale S / '12 C300-4M Loaded/GLK350-4M Loaded
Just returned from the Wash DC Auto Show.... Yikes... the reps were worthless.... "Direct Injection?... What's that? All of our cars have Blue Efficiency motors..." OMG, VW had better informed floor crews!

I'll wait for New York.
MBRedux is offline  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:25 AM
  #46  
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Same thing from philly. But I did have a good chat there with a DFI consultant for Ford. Very sharp Asian gentleman.

" OMG, VW had better informed floor crews!" Same deal up here. VW had 3 gals (with slight german accents) that knew more about the product than the 2 empty headed, handsome, well dressed sales guys for MB.

Note the show was 1/2 the size before the market dropped. Used to have a great tuner's section.

.

Last edited by kevink2; 02-03-2012 at 09:14 AM.
kevink2 is offline  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:32 AM
  #47  
Member
 
Kevin82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: California
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
2012 c250 Coupe
Originally Posted by MBRedux View Post
Just returned from the Wash DC Auto Show.... Yikes... the reps were worthless.... "Direct Injection?... What's that? All of our cars have Blue Efficiency motors..." OMG, VW had better informed floor crews!

I'll wait for New York.
Isn't Blue Efficiency just a marketing term from MB that relates to how the overall car is made to be fuel efficient and not just in regards to the engine (ie: aero dynamics, weight, etc)?
Kevin82 is offline  
Old 02-03-2012, 10:07 AM
  #48  
Super Moderator
 
Glyn M Ruck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 19,903
Liked 91 Times in 75 Posts
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Kevin82 View Post
Isn't Blue Efficiency just a marketing term from MB that relates to how the overall car is made to be fuel efficient and not just in regards to the engine (ie: aero dynamics, weight, etc)?
Yes!
Glyn M Ruck is offline  
Old 02-03-2012, 10:39 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
2012c350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 355
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
2012 C350 / 2001 F150 4x4 / 1998 Cobra Convertible
To expand on Glyn's correct answer...

From: http://vps109.vpswin.dk/mercedes/Blu...e_11_09_DK.pdf

The BlueEFFICIENCY measures: the Mercedes-
Benz efficiency package. An engineer who wants
to save fuel needs one radical idea or a whole
raft of small – but still very well thought-out –
solutions. As in our BlueEFFICIENCY vehicles,
for example. In developing these models, our en-
gineers analysed every detail to identify those
which could be made to work even more effi-
ciently. The numerous measures they devel-
oped as a result range from drag reduction
and lightweight materials to an intelligent en-
ergy management system and an improved,
more energy-efficient power steering system.
Each of these enhancements reduces fuel con-
sumption. Although only a small amount is
saved by each measure individually, their com-
bined impact is remarkable: the combination of
the Mercedes-Benz BlueEFFICIENCY package
and our efficient engines cuts fuel consumption –
and with it CO2 emissions – by up to 23%.

Originally Posted by Glyn M Ruck View Post
Yes!
2012c350 is offline  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:29 PM
  #50  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 584
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
2012 C250 Sport
Originally Posted by Glyn M Ruck View Post
I suggest you ask Benz directly. I'm sure you will find their comments reassuring.
As someone who just purchase a C250 (and is very much enjoying it aside from the overly busy ride, which I was sort of expecting) and is too lazy to e-mail MB USA right now, I'm just going to read into this comment and be re-assured w/o having to contact them (yes....?).
alsyli is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Quick Reply: New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ??


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: