Sportstick

Correct about the price, but not the issue. Either BMW's PR department ordered, or early pre-production units were built with high option content, so that is what the testing fleet had. The extra options had no effect on the engine, chassis, steering response, or seat comfort, which are the key distinctions made in the test. Merely having a group of pricey options does not make the larger V6 C350 engine comparable. One simply compares apples-to-apples.....4 cylinder engine to 4 cylinder engine, base chassis to base chassis, seat to seat, and leaves out the unbalanced option content in writing a road test review. If you want a Sport Sedan for daily "ultimate driving", it seems BMW wins....if you want a Luxury Sedan for comfortable cruising, it's the C Class. The Luxury model of the 3 may be just as much of an overreach as the Sport model of the C, compared to each one's overall brand strategy.

DonjuanOriginal

How do they test a New Model to a 5 year face-lifted model. Engine aside BMW always had better performance. The New Bmw has a lot better interior than previous. Still like the C-class interior better. either or the new W205 will give BMW a run for the money. in the end bad head to head. even the car mag guy said we'll do it again. Why do it at all now??? Benz for life. Will never change but i appreciate what BMW makes.

MBRedux

Our new C300 Sedan Sport 4Matic was listed at $52K. It's not really about price comparison, the two cars in the test were probably what the manufacturers had on hand to give them for their test. The Bimmer just had more junk in it. The three trim levels the bimmer comes in, Sport, Lux, and Modern really does play around with the underpinnings and steering box options. That's cool!

However there are other factors that go into buying a car as you all know. The BMW doesn't quite have the build-quality of the Benz, nor are their paint jobs up to par, (have you ever noticed the terrible orange peel on BMW's?) but the largest factor why we stayed with Benz, especially in this region, is dealer satisfaction. Our nearest BMW dealership has the worst reputation in the region. Less than one * out of 5.... I couldn't care how great they made their cars, I would not give them my business.

2012c350

Not sure what the issue is? If you're saying that they should only compare cars that compete in the same class if they are both new platforms then you'd rarely ever have any comparisons at all. Otherwise, if someone is out looking for a 2012 car then this is indeed a possible comparison that a buyer might consider...me, not so much, but perhaps for some.

Sportstick

You understand it perfectly! Product cycles are out of synch at competitors by intention to maximize (although alternately) volume in the early years after launch. I am surprised how many folks struggle with understanding auto journalism...vehicles are supplied with detailed lists of content so similarities and differences may be accounted for in the write up, allowing readers to make comparisons.

The comparisons reflect what is "in-market" at any given model year in time. In 2014, MB will have a new W205 and BMW's F30 platform 3 series will be two years old...and that will be a fair comparison of what will be available then. The current comparison is especially reasonable, as MB just put the 204 platform through a mid-cycle action for 2012, so short of completely revising the chassis, they had a chance to make, and did make, many changes, and have even bragged about 2000+ new parts, including new engines, chassis modifications, and a very improved interior. What possibly is neither fair nor reasonable about a comparison for 2012?

jesydney

2.0 litre 4 compare with 1.8 litre 4. Obviously the 2L is going to have more power whether its Euro tech or Japanese tech.

I personally drive a 1.8K coupe, because I could not find a facelifted C200K 2dr and my wife has the standard W203 C200K 2.0L K Avantgarde sedan. Both have identitical everything. Except for the facelift, lowered with staggered wheels in my C180K.

Even comparing these two, same class W203 series, there is difference in power and the way the cpu processes transmission changes. C200k is faster of the mark, changes up faster and less hunting. It drives better on power bends due to better able to control the power without the transmission suddenly shifting down.

So although the C180K will keep its track on bends but if it suddenly shifts down, then it throws everything out.

Irregardless of how the C180K handles, my left brain wants to say that the C200K is a better car.

For a fairer comparison, I would compare my C180K to a friend's C180K Avantgarde sedan, then I prefer mine.

Of course if BMW has a sports 1.8 litre model it would then be a better BM tech agaisnt Merc tech.

Sportstick

Not necessarily...here's a top of mind example I just read about:

Ford 2.0 liter 240hp@5500rpm; 270 lb/ft torque@3000
Ford 2.5 liter 168hp@6000rpm; 170 lb/ft torque@4500

Exactly the reverse of what your prediction would be. The half-liter larger 2.5 is the base engine, but the 2.0 has a variety of technological advancements (read about EcoBoost)

In your market, two-tenths of a liter might be considered a significant difference between 4 cylinder engines. In the US, it is almost invisible. Both BMW and MB only have one 4 cylinder engine in our market, 2.0 and 1.8 liter, respectively, so they put their best foot forward with their one offering, and we compare the results.

jesydney

dammn, I keep forgetting that I'm reading a US site.
Yes, I agree. 200cc is a big deal here. For Merc and BeeM the difference is 10-15K$ between a 1.8 and 2.
However I still think it is an unfair head2head, as someone mentioned, Merc is 5yr old tech. BM is current. So much has changed in terms of engineering progress. 5yrs is a long time in RD.
The new A class is evidence of that. The A will start of life as a 2litre. Now if they go head2head with the current BM 1 series, I'm predicting the A Merc will come out tops.
Now, if only MB will PLEASE, fix the transmission CPU to give immediate fire from pushing paddles or R/L push of the G-knob for us. Unless it is fixed in the A class.

Sportstick

See posts 29 and 30 above.

kevink2

Some other food for thought:

1) 200 cc makes little difference on an 6.0L engine, and a huge amount of difference on a 500cc motorcycle engine. It's the % difference that matters, which means the 2.0 block is 11% bigger than the 1.8L .

2) Then you add the BMW twin scroll hot inlet to the turbo, designed to help both the low end and high end power.

3) Lastly, there is the boost map and control method .. general rule is more boost = more power.

4) Results:

BMW's 229hp is 14% more than MB, so considering basic 11% size advantage, this suggests BMW has extra top end boost and or cam at the top end.

BMW's 255 ft-lbs is 11% more than MB's 229, consistent with the displacement difference. So just looking at boost the MB likely makes a little more boost at the low end, to create equal torque gains for both engines due to boost.



Bottom line opinion on the comparo, BMW wins on performance, but not easy trip driving comfort, and there is a hidden charge for the BMW so the "same price" references are misleading ... another words typical magazine comparo.

.

Sportstick

And, rolled into the BMW's MSRP is pricing to cover the cost of their 4 year maintenance program (which is not "free"). So, in the unlikely event that all other physical aspects of the cars could be identical, one would still expect the BMW to cost more.

Count Laszlo

I have owned a few BMWs, quite a few, over the past 20 years (6 of them, including 2 M3s) and the new F30 is a sad and ugly example of one of Germany's great brands selling out and value engineering their cars to death. The F30 is got to be the ugliest car on the road. It's downright odd looking. You can't say it's an inspiring glory of beauty and engineering! Period! I also test drove their 328i "modern" line and it felt like a cheap rental car. Very sad indeed. The steering is dead. Even in sport mode. I just didn't get it and had to look down at the roundle to remind me I was driving a BMW and not a Civic. And the interior was so cheap, the cheap plastic. It was not a BMW. And during the test drive the steering wheel was shaking slightly, but enough to see it vibrate back and forth. Really??? And a sticker of nearly 46k... Yeah, ok. UGLY car.

LILBENZ230

Isn't it amazing the excuses? Several people have basically said that this was not a fair comparison because the BMW is the better car - for example, the 2.0L vs 1.8L argument. BMW made the more powerful car thus it isn't fair.

This comparison test would have turned out the same way even if the car had been a C350. The BMW would have still been the better drive, resulted in better fuel economy, and the BMW 2.0L would have essentially matched the 3.5L in performance.

Sportstick

Much of this thread can be categorized under "dissonance reduction". I found this topic interesting enough, that I went and drove the "other guy". New 328i Sport model, with stick. I have no clue what the detractors are carping about. The car was outstanding... exhilarating...engine pulls far beyond the 4 cylinder it is, and the chassis is razor-sharp...very comfortable/supportive seats...a delight to drive...interior has a different design philosophy, but was very well executed except for some plastic overreach on the lower door trim panels. We can continue to kid ourselves here, but they did an excellent job...perhaps just about every car mag in the US and Europe aren't all wrong after all!?!?

StuttgartUSA

I have not seen a German car mag or European car mag do a review as of yet. I went to the BMW dealerships and they just dont have 328's in fact I have not seen any 328's in Europe other than US spec, I think they offer the BMWs in 4 trims 320,325,330,335

In fact the 250 is not even the direct competitor to the 328, its the competitor to the 325 which they match up with price point features and performance. So there is no ''dissonance reduction'' because the cars are not even competitors in the performance realm.

Domm

It is unfair in terms of a comparison, but its just how competition works in the economics side of things. Its called game theory where if one company makes a move, the competing company updates their strategy to maximize profits (or so they try). Information on what the competition is creating is really tough to obtain, so you'll rarely see competing companies release a vehicle simultaneously made to compete with each other.

The name of the game is seeing what the next move is and building on their weak points.

StuttgartUSA

All fine and dandy, but this comparison is only going on because there the bottom of the trim line there in the states. The rest of the world there not direct competitors. Its like comparing the performance of a jet fighter to a ground attack aircraft. The actual direct competitor is the C300 which I understand is getting a update to compete with the 328I performance wise.

Domm

I guess car reviewers in the states need to research some more before claiming "the biggest competitor of Mercedes is BMW"

StuttgartUSA

See post 3 above, I never said that Mercedes and BMW where not Direct competitors


Break down of product line and who they compete with internationally

C180/318
C200/320
C250/325
C300/330 States 328
C350/335
C63/M3

New Product Line starting this year

C180/316
C200 or C250/320
C300/328
C350/335
C63/M3

Sportstick

The competitors are defined by two criteria...1) the vehicles which the manufacturers wish to put in play in the market and, 2) the vehicles cross-shopped by buyers. We know buyers in the US cross-consider 3 series and C Class. BMW and MB, in their wisdom, chose the 328i and C250 as their entry level vehicles for the US market...so be it. There is no 325 here. The manufacturer defines the available choices, and by definition 328i and C250 are the facing competitive models in this market and priced accordingly.

I can understand Europeans questioning the match if not aware of the line-up here, but the outrage at "ugly" styling and the carping about a newly launched model vs an existing model are absurd. It may not be one's preference, but nothing in the entire segment is "ugly", and we've explained that comparisons are based on what is in market AT THE TIME. In a year the new W205 will have the newness advantage over the F30 3 series. Meanwhile, the harshness and feigned outrage is just a temper tantrum from someone defending their different choice.


Edit: The C300 is not the direct competitor in the US any longer, as it is available only as a 4 wheel drive vehicle, unneeded in much of the US. The C250 and C350 are the rear wheel drive models...therefore facing the 328i and 335i, respectively.

Domm

http://i.autoblog.com/2012/04/16/bmw...vers-of-other/

I thought this was funny although the results can be interpreted in many different ways.

joesama

This comparison is just so bias.
BMW's new 3 Series is just an ugly looking car. They just remind me of the current Mitsubishi lancer.
It is so obvious his not really interested in the Merc from the start. In terms of comparison, he should have also taken note that price point is very important. That BMW is more than 50K. How is this comparable to the car thats 10K less that that? People will be comparing based on the price point and what they will get, for example, options and the performance wise.
I really think the only special feature on the new BMW 3 series is the Head up display. Other then that, it is really an UGLY looking car.

joe...

Count Laszlo

LOL

Count Laszlo

It really is one ugly car... There is no question about it. And it's not ugly like an older Saab of the 80s, but ugly like an automotive deformity.

Thirdrem

I agree! However, I like the headlights, but despise the grille. Overall, the MB is the true winner. I just couldn't believe how much more expensive the tested BMW was over the MB. Insane.