JayTh

Hi,

the 2013 c300 has the same engine as the c350, but 50 hp/torque less.
Kleeman sent me this:

"our programmers and they're confident they can write a nice TUNE file that will exceed what a stock C350 makes. Typically, when MB makes two different models with the identical engine, they simply de-tune it via the ECU, and they usually just limit maximum throttle opening - the C300 falls into that category. We can get your C300 to make about 15-20 more HP than a stock C350."

Question: are the engines exactly the same (above and beyond the block) I know Kleeman implies this, but I want to be sure???

Question: alternately, could I not just buy a stock ECU unit for the C350 and swap (and lose out on the extra 15-20 more hp)?


thoughts?? has anyone done this yet? if it is a quick fix, it is a great upgrade.

KPcompetition

The C350 is 3.5L and the C300 is 3.0L. Same engine, different bore, and probably different pistons and crank. ECU is also different. I was thinking about boring out my c300 to have a 3.5L displacement but then I was advised I'd need a new crank and pistons too and to do all that just for that 50 hp I may as well go buy a c350 engine out of a wreck and save the headache and a few bucks.

If kleeman can get an additional 50 out of a C300 I'd be surprised. I don't see how they can get close to 70 hp though. That would be a 300hp c300 with no forced induction.. would be pretty godly.

JayTh

Hi,

the 2013 has the same 3.5 engine displacement as the c350 now - this was a change from previous years, it lowered the MPG and raised the hp to 248.

ilumunus

If they both have the 3.5 engine displacement, then I don't see why not to do it. You should ask them if they have ever done this before and if you could speak to or see a car which has it done.

Just putting my 2 cents in.

JaredP

This is great news. Hopefully a company releases a handheld programmer for quick flash / flash-back. 325HP C300? Hell yeah

In regards to your Questions:

1)
This is something that has had people wondering quite a bit. If a reputable tuning company can confirm it, I would expect it to be true. I have been following this for quite a while now and have not got any concrete facts, which make this exciting.

2)
I'm not 100% certain what tasks the ECU will take care of, but it's possible that it could control accessory features that may be different on a 350.. no idea what i'm talking about, however. I wouldn't bet money on it.

edgalang

I would be very interested in this mod. If anything just to get rid of the 130mph limiter. Hopefully a more optimized tune would also yield better MPG during normal driving as well. I wonder if the tune would take the existing 350s higher, or will it be the same as a tuned 300.

Nevermind...did a little googling and found my answer. It basically comes down to which engine you have...the older M272 or the newer M276 (2012+).

A stage-1 M272 upgrade will take it to 305hp / 278lb-ft, while a stage-1 M276 upgrade will take it to 330hp / 296lb-ft. If the flash is reversible, this is very tempting indeed (late father's day present to me).

edgalang

This seriously got me looking and I came across this...

https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...2013-sale.html

You have a little less than a week and a half to decide to get the special pricing. For $595 including the flash loader that'll allow you to dynamically switch maps, It is now extremely tempting.

JaredP

Except OE offers a pretty weak tune for the 2013 GDI engine. You can see their post in my thread: https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...76-engine.html

No clue why they would put a "+12 HP" tune on the market when there is a +80 HP from kleemann.

edgalang

True however I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples here. According to Kleeman's website the 350 CGI is a M272, while the 2012+ C350 sold in the US is a M276.

JaredP

The M272 engine isn't part of this discussion. 2012+ 350s have the M276 and 2013+ C300s have the M276. Kleemanns M276 tune for either the 300 or 350 is 330HP. OEs tune for the 300 is 260HP.

edgalang

Yes. I was thrown off by the "CGI" part...which is why I brought up the M272.

C300Sport

Yeah, staying under 130 MPH really makes the commute so much more tedious...
Seriously, just how often does any of us driver over 130 MPH in a non AMG C Class...or even a C63 for that matter??


Considering we are dealing with normally aspirated motors, I think OE's numbers are much more accurate than Kleeman's.

JaredP

This is getting frustrating. The C300 and C350 for the 2013 MY have the EXACT SAME engine, as confirmed by the kleemann in the OP. Meaning they will have the same potential HP/TQ numbers. The C300 is DE-TUNED, at 248 HP, whereas the C350 is at 305 HP. A re-tune will get the C300 back on par with the C350, where it should be, as they have the same engine, a gain of 57HP. ON TOP OF THAT Kleemann offers an additional 15-20HP with their performance tune, for both the C300 and C350. This is where the ~70HP number comes from.

edgalang

Does it really matter to you why? With that kind of mentality, why mod anything.

xjaymzzx

i spoke to alot of tuning companies (OE tuning and Eurocharged), they said for the 2013 c300 4matic, you can't do a handheld programmer through the obd 2 (not is if spelling is correct). You can ECU tune it but it has to be bench flashed (which means you have to send in your ecu if your not a local). If it was a handheld flasher, i would get it asap but the closest ecu tuner near me is over an hour away one way.

C300Sport

Just playing devil's advocate if it's OK with you. Has anyone, other than a tuner house, come across the actual specs of the intakes and posted them somewhere? I have seen all sorts of things about bore, stroke, etc but not intake diameter, runner length/design, etc. Who knows, the 4Matic hardware just may necessitate an adjustment to the intake/exhaust plumbing in addition to the deliberate de-tune??

Don't get your panties in a wad... I was joking around a bit but at the same time stating the FACT that there are very few times, even on most tracks, when a car is hitting much over 130 MPH....especially a 3600 pound car with 300 HP.

edgalang

You mad or something? LOL Facts aside, all mods are of personal preference where even the general public might find some (if not most) silly. I do understand your point (and if the roles were reversed, I'd probably bring up that argument as well), however to me its a matter of principal, and from an engineering standpoint, why limit a perfectly good platform (regardless if I'll ever even hit 130+ throughout the life of the car)?

This does however remind me of another topic, in that the comment parallels gun control advocates demanding a reduction on the number of rounds a firearm magazine is designed to hold because they claim "it's a fact that you wouldn't be using that amount of rounds in a self defense scenario anyways", but I digress.


As for the OP...I don't understand the logic behind the detune as well. If it was not mechanically required to do so, why do it at all and just increase the base asking price?

C300Sport

Not mad at all. Just made an observation about the speed limiter that you seemed to take exception to.
I agree with you about guns and cars. As long as it's yours and you handle it responsibly enough not to endanger others, feel free to do what you like. A 3600lb car running 130 MPH has the potential to do a lot more damage that a loaded handgun....
As far as me wanting to stay stock and thinking others should as well....mine is lowered, tuned, had exhaust and intake work, tinted, rolling or forged wheels, etc,. Last week, I replaced my factory grill, which I had painted, and put a luxury grill on just to feel like I was tweaking something.
Anyhow, it seems like we have the same "sickness" so don't feel like I was trying to belittle you with my original comment...I really was just trying to be funny...maybe in a sarcastic way but no malice intended.

edgalang

C300Sport:
No harm no foul. Now if we can only get the OP's question answered (he got me curious as well). Too bad my local Kleeman dealer (San Francisco) hasn't responded to my calls and email. Makes me want to go OE Tuning for that reason alone, but I found out the M276 can't be ODB2 flashed and must be benched (meaning downtime I can't afford).

JayTh

Hi,

I'll respond to Kleeman and see if I can find out more. I'm worried that there is more than the chip that is different. - they said I could pull the ECU, ship it overnight and they will send it back the day after. the cost was 995.

I also like the eco setting - and was hoping that a oem 350 ecu would keep it functional - I will jump into a local dealer and ask.

It makes complete sense to me that the engines would be identical except for chip - manufacturers would love to make as little parts as possible, and be able to market them across different segments!

JaredP

Kleeman's tune will get rid of ECO start stop functionality? Oh well. Let us know what you hear. Any chance of a handheld tuner?

edgalang

No. I've been in email contact with Jeremy @ OE Tuning and he says the M276 engine requires a bench flash.

I ALSO, happen to have just gotten off the phone with Cory @ Kleemann and he says the same thing. In addition, he also informed me that there will be no benefit going to my local Kleemann shop because all they will do is take my ECU off, then ship it to the Kleemann USA headquarters in Colorado to bench flash.

I might have to just bite the bullet and go without a car for a few days if I go this route.

JayTh: BTW...that 995 cost is in Euro. The US cost is $1295. Also keep in mind the Kleemann power gains are measured from the crank, whereas the OE Tuning #'s come from the wheels.

JayTh

thanks - and to clarify, Kleeman did not say that the ECO is disabled, I just assumed (and perhaps wrongly)

Is there a sweet spot in HP/MPG?? - the C350 4matic is rated the exact same for MPG as the C300 4matic in canada - I drive an awful lot, and MPG do matter to me.

JaredP

Talked to someone at Kleemann US HQ, and indeed they said they can get tuned C350 power from the C300. Waiting for some people to give it a try before I dive in!

xjaymzzx

i would do it! but do you have to send in your ecu? or is there a headquarters on the east coast you can go to