I have read a MB produced warning not to use 229.51 oil in a petrol engine as it has a problem when ethanol mix is used. Something it, I was led to believe caused problem with the valve lifters

 

Quote:Originally Posted by BerndV View Post

The differences in required formulation have little to do with wear and everything to do with meeting diesel emissions requirements and protecting the emission control systems on diesels.
.[/QUOTE]





Thank you, finally. The 229.5 will provided better protection for petrol engines.

I would not let a slack dealer put the 229.51 in my petrol engine.[/QUOTE]

JC ~ You are absolutely correct. Having forum trouble & will post my full reply once resolved!

 

229.51 oils are unsuitable for Benz Gasoline engines. That's why Benz placed ash limits on the products so no manufacturer could claim their product met both specs. 229.51 has an ash limit of less than 0.8%. 229.51 oils are incapable of protecting the highly stressed cam & tappet area of a Benz Gasoline engine. The reason a 229.51 oil works in a diesel is that diesels are rev limited to approx 4500rpm by the combustion process & run far less aggressive cams than a gasoline engine. A 229.5 engine oil typically has twice the antiwear additive treat of a 229.51. Diesel engine oils are formulated to combat high temperature sludge whereas gasoline engine oils are formulated to combat low temperature sludge. While certain ashless dispersants etc. are added to 229.51 products to make them as robust as possible they will never pass 229.5 requirements with respect to valve train wear, HTHS & other needs in highly stressed engine areas. All oils within a specific Benz approval category are fungible & miscible irrespective of viscosity

Do not use 229.51 engine oils in a Benz gasoline engine. You will suffer accelerated valve train wear leading ultimately to a failure.

 

Thanks for affirming exactly what I have been stating.

 

Well not quite: If you ever find ~ "dealerships use M1 5W-40 because they can stock one oil that can be used in both gasoline and diesel engines even though it is less than optimum in the gas engines. They are both "correct" oils for gasoline engines,"

Not true and if you ever find a Benz dealer stocking 1 oil for both applications please report them to Benz. As said above this is exactly why Benz put ash limits on both products so that this would not occur.

This statement by you is BS "The differences in required formulation have little to do with wear and everything to do with meeting diesel emissions requirements and protecting the emission control systems on diesels."

 

Actually, not BS. I'm sure with your background, you are familiar with Lubrizol. According to Lubrizol, the move to low SAPS (like MB 229.51) oils has everything to do with protection of emission after-treatment systems. High SAPS oils were fine for both light duty diesels and gasoline engines prior to the advent of diesel exhaust after-treatment systems.

Regarding your assertion that MB 229.51 oils like Mobil 5W-40 should never be used in gasoline Benz's and that I should report dealers that use it for both types of engines, it would be easier to report the entire US dealer network. Besides, as you can see from MB Bevo sheet 223.2, oils listed under MB 229.51 can, in fact, be used on many Benz gasoline engines. Not optimum, as I have previously stated, but approved.

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf

 

It looks to me that there are 2 M1 5W-40 oils. The 5W-40 "M" has MB 229.5 approval. The other 5W-40 looks like a diesel with no 229.5 approval. Correct?

 

Correct. The regular Formula M is 229.5 approved, whereas the ESP Formula M is 229.51 approved.

 

I know Lubrizol very well & they have never claimed their 229.51 formulations could be used where 229.5 is specified at normal drain. Benz only permits the use of 229.51 on a very few low stressed gasoline engines and at drastically reduced drain interval. If you enter 229.51 into the Assyst on the engines permitted your drain interval will be halved or less and the Service Indicator will call you in for an early service.

We endeavour to give the very best possible info on this forum & you are misleading people. Stop it. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Members should only use 229.5 oils in gasoline Benz engines at 10K mile drains or above which is the norm (used to be 13K with the "Fleece" blown polyester filter developed by Mann + Hummel). I have lived in Dallas & Marin County, Bay Area for long periods of time & decent dealers like Park Place, Schumacher etc etc certainly do not use one oil in both gasoline & diesel engines.

Cut it out please. You are not doing anybody any favours. We have our own additive company & have done business with Lubrizol for decades. I'm a tribologist in a US supermajor & I know what I'm talking about. We have some of the largest research labs in the world in Europe, US & Japan. I have worked with MB Stuttgart for much of my long oilco career. I even worked with the late Max Ghering when the DB Service Products approvals process was in it's infancy.

Low SAPs oils sacrifice engine protection for emissions gear protection. Not what you want in Benz gasoline engines. Fine for PC diesel with Cats & regen units.

Many Benz vehicles in many global markets have the variable Assyst turned off & a fixed period for service turned on at 10K miles or 15K or 20K Km's. This increases the risk of accelerated engine wear with unsuitable oils. This is a global forum!

 

Frankly Glyn, I am not sure where we disagree. Throughout this entire thread, I have made the point that M1 0W-40 is the superior choice for gasoline Benz engines vs M1 5W-40 ESP. I then pointed out that the raison d'etre for low SAPS engine oil formulations is protection of emission control systems. You called BS on this statement. You then go on in your latest post to state "Low SAPs oils sacrifice engine protection for emissions gear protection. Not what you want in Benz gasoline engines." So we are now in agreement. Perhaps your previous disagreement was merely to assert your authority. I may not be a tribologist, but I have a PhD in aeronautical engineering and was a dual major undergrad in both mechanical engineering and organic chemistry. I was deeply involved in jet engine design and development for General Electric and Pratt & Whitney for twenty five years, including selection and testing of lubricants in partnership with Exxon Mobil.

BTW, I called Fletcher Jones Mercedes in Newport Beach, CA and asked them whether they use a different oil for diesel and gas Benz's. The response I got was they use the same Mobil 1 5W-40 in all of their oil changes. As you may know, they are considered rather reputable, being the largest MB dealer on the planet. I also called Schumacher since you mentioned them. Same answer. Is this wrong? Yes. Is it commonplace? Unfortunately, yes. This is why this whole thread was started.

 

We disagree on the basic premise that, lets take as an example, there are an awful lot of M272/M273 engines in the Benz pool & especially in the US. More V8's in the US. At no time at no drain interval can you use 229.51 products in these engines or in any AMG as an example.

I checked your credentials before posting & I have seen you post on the Diesel forum. Being half correct is not being correct. We all understand the emissions gear protection but one cannot simply discount valvetrain protection.

I did not comment here by particular choice. I was requested by a number of members that know me to comment because they did not altogether buy what you were saying & PM'ed me. You might note I seldom comment on the W204 forum these days because most things have been said many times on this mature chassis. NO assertion of authority!

My comment remains simple. DO NOT use 229.51 oils in Benz gasoline engines at 10K drain intervals period.

 

And now you have modified your post. I can watch these things! In future I will always quote you so you can't do that!.

 

I never discounted valve train protection. I merely stated that low SAPS was introduced for emission reasons alone and that wear had nothing to do with the reason low SAPS formulations came into existence. I still fail to see where I am half right. Please enlighten me.

 

There is no product called Mobil 1 5W-40 approved against 229.5, 229.51 or 229.52 so which product are you talking about?

MBUSA is known to be a loose cannon in the global Benz empire & dealers need their butts kicked. Members should insist on the correct products being used in their gasoline Benz engines. As JC (Carsy) comments correctly. "I would not let a slack dealer put the 229.51 in my petrol engine"

"nuff said. This forum has achieved improved practice at a number of US dealers. e.g. Changing out the 4 litres of fluid in the 722.9 transmission torque converter instead of polluting the new fluid charge with 4 litres of old oxidised fluid that catalyses further oxidation.

Fortunately I have only experienced good service from the US Benz dealers I have used but that might be because they knew who I was & knew I would be sampling fluids!

 

You are simply being obtuse! Find somebody else to bicker with. Your inference is plain to all. My PM box is full & my time is better spent helping other appreciative members.

I have made my position clear & those that know me will heed my advice regarding their engines.

 

This is the 5W-40 being used at many dealers in both gas and diesel engines:

http://pds.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...a_M_5W-40.aspx

This is what they are supposed to use in gasoline engines:

http://pds.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...a_M_5W-40.aspx

Because they are both "Mobil 1 5W-40", most dealership parts departments don't know the difference and order one product (229.51) for everything.

I am not being "obtuse". My life's work has been about being as intellectually correct as is humanly possible. If I am wrong about anything I have asserted, I sincerely desire to be enlightened. I post on here to help and learn.

 

Thanks fellas, a very useful discussion in my opinion. If it saves valve train wear in our vehicles, it is very worthwhile.

 

Members. If it has become endemic in US Benz Dealerships to use Mobil 1™ ESP Formula M 5W-40 in gasoline engines instead of a 229.5 approved product then insist they don't put it near your gasoline engine & especially at 10K drains.

If you use a dealer that adopts this poor practice I suggest that you supply your own engine oil to them meeting 229.5. Other than being the correct product it will save you a few dollars on the oil change & many dollars later in the engine's life.

If you have an AMG model that develops a noisy valve train & which will be first to show the ill effects of using the wrong oil. Make a claim against the dealership & keep a sample of the oil. A new set of cams & followers for an AMG engine is very expensive. (this would apply to any Benz gasoline engine but the thought of the wrong product in an AMG is alarming)

I'm lucky to live in a country where Benz owns most of the dealerships & the MBSA Reps that visit the dealers police a correct fluids practice because all Benz vehicles here are sold with a Mobilodrive plan & Benz has to carry the can for a very long while.

 

Glyn you always give the best advice Thanks, this thread really blew up but It was a good read. I wish when the service guys write in the service book they were more detailed all thats written is 5w-40 for the fest 4 changes so who knows what type of oil they used.

I personally wrote down 0w-40 Mobil 1 and the list of stuff I did when I did my oil change this past Monday. If I ever sell the car I have receipts of all the oil I bought, the filters and any other maintenance items i purchased, but I truly want to keep this thing for a long time.

 

The problem for the average MB consumer is that even if you ask what they use, the employees probably have no idea beyond the viscosity grade. When the 229.51 spec began to be rolled out and all of the dealerships switched to M1 5W-40 ESP Formula M and hopefully M1 Formula M 5W-40, it took me quite a bit of digging to figure out that they did not even realize there was a difference. Without personally inspecting the barrel from which they dispense the oil for your OC, it is a crap shoot. To make matters worse, neither of the M1 5W-40 products is listed on the US Mobil 1 consumer site, as these two products are only available from distributors and not at retail locations here in the US. A relatively recent service bulletin from MBUSA directs dealers to use the M1 ESP 5W-30 or 0W-30 in diesels and use the Formula M 5W-40 in gasoline engines. Perhaps this was in response to the confusion around the two 5W-40 products. Another factor is undoubtedly fuel economy in their diesels. Hopefully, this will eventually resolve the problems at the dealership level. However, this is no guarantee that the 5W-40 they stock is not the wrong product. As Glyn suggested, bring your own M1 0W-40 (or whichever 229.5 approved product you prefer) and have the dealership use it. Personally, I like the satisfaction derived from changing my own oil. It is surprisingly easy on a Benz.

 

That's exactly why I immediately changed my own oil when I got mine used. A MB Dealer did service at 20K for the previous owner then CarMax did another oil change at 21K. Nobody could say what had been used other than it was synthetic.

 

Wise man!

 

BTW ~ changes in Benz oil specification & formulation from 229.51 to 229.52 are only changes to viscometrics for improved fuel economy & a tighter control on Chlorine to encourage recycling. Many 229.51 products will pass 229.52 with zero reformulation. From a viscometrics perspective the new spec/formulation will allow blending of an SAE 0W-20 for fuel economy. 229.51 will over time become obsolete.

In Europe & countries like SA & Australia dealerships have already moved to 229.52 for Benz PC diesel.

 

Good read.


I will be doing all my oil changes with Mobil 1 0W-40 and will not let the dealer do it. The 2008 C230 I just bought from the dealer has clean oil but I am unsure exactly what they used. I know it is a 5W-40. I asked and think they said it was a Quaker State or a Pennzoil synthetic that they use here.


Doing the oil change myself I can at least make sure I am buying the correct spec oil and I'll do a much cleaner and of course cheaper job than the dealer.