Diesels Banned in Four Cities.
12-04-2016, 12:01 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Diesels Banned in Four Cities.
12-06-2016, 04:00 AM
#3
Member
These cities get very still air in the winter months at times, and have been traditionally very polluted in the industrial age 1850-1920 when most of the homes and businesses burned coal. Europe did not have very many cars in the 1920-1980 period and during that time gradually coal heating and local coal fired energy sources were removed. The winter air was hugely improved. What has happened is from 1980 to 2010 the population of POV and commercial trucks in use has exploded, bringing back a problem that had existed before, if for another reason.
Banning Diesel means banning all the commercial delivery trucks as well as the very large numbers of passenger cars that do not have exhaust scrubbers fitted. European regulations for Diesel particulate emissions have only been tightened in the last couple years and this is the current problem: Lots of not even close to clean Diesel. This vehicle cohort makes the "cheating" scrubber equipped VW Diesels look totally acceptable.
(As a side point, my wife and I drive to northern California regularly with our tainted, but scrubber equipped TDI VW. It pollutes roughly 5x less than two air plane seats for the same trip. It is important to keep the big picture in mind. I'd rather the 12 billion VW fine had been used for big truck engine replacement. But, the big truck manufactures lobbied congress so that replacing older truck Diesel engines with clean tech is banned, go figure.)
It is only in the last three or four years that scrubbers were a purchase option in the EU and they are not really mandatory until ~2018 (or something like that). So, the winter still air pollution situation has become serious. However, I would bet as the latest truly clean Diesel are mandated, they will be permitted intercity access, if gasoline cars are also permitted. There is also the problem of pure vehicle congestion, for which a tax or toll is applied, as in London.
Diesel is not dying. At the moment fuel prices are historically low, but at ~4+ per gallon in EU, the savings on Diesel vs. Gasoline is very real. When fuel was $7 per gallon Diesel was a must for anyone driving 12.000 miles per year or more. (do the math!)
There is a new technology for gasoline, the Miller Cycle, that is predicated on the engine control features developed over that past decade, oddly in part due to the work that was done to clean up Diesel. This promises to compete with Diesel fuel economy, but not on a per KW basis, rather the Miller Cycle is still quite fuel efficient, but not as powerful.
The problem for Miller Cycle is if $7-8 gallon fuel prices eventually come back to the EU. This is not yet a reality, but it is no longer a remote possibility. With the Saudi's now pissed off at Trump suggesting he will belly up to Putin, OPEC has suddenly become a potential political block once again. It is true shale oil production will increase if prices go beyond $55 per barrel, but the is a buffer only for shale oil producing regions, not EU.
This is the rough picture related to banning intercity Diesel vehicles and any surmise that this is in some way 'hand writing on the wall'. This does not follow the underlaying fuel supply economics or technology capabilities subject to better regulation.
As an aside, MB just spend 3 billion dollars in R&D on the new generation Diesel engines. What do they know?
Banning Diesel means banning all the commercial delivery trucks as well as the very large numbers of passenger cars that do not have exhaust scrubbers fitted. European regulations for Diesel particulate emissions have only been tightened in the last couple years and this is the current problem: Lots of not even close to clean Diesel. This vehicle cohort makes the "cheating" scrubber equipped VW Diesels look totally acceptable.
(As a side point, my wife and I drive to northern California regularly with our tainted, but scrubber equipped TDI VW. It pollutes roughly 5x less than two air plane seats for the same trip. It is important to keep the big picture in mind. I'd rather the 12 billion VW fine had been used for big truck engine replacement. But, the big truck manufactures lobbied congress so that replacing older truck Diesel engines with clean tech is banned, go figure.)
It is only in the last three or four years that scrubbers were a purchase option in the EU and they are not really mandatory until ~2018 (or something like that). So, the winter still air pollution situation has become serious. However, I would bet as the latest truly clean Diesel are mandated, they will be permitted intercity access, if gasoline cars are also permitted. There is also the problem of pure vehicle congestion, for which a tax or toll is applied, as in London.
Diesel is not dying. At the moment fuel prices are historically low, but at ~4+ per gallon in EU, the savings on Diesel vs. Gasoline is very real. When fuel was $7 per gallon Diesel was a must for anyone driving 12.000 miles per year or more. (do the math!)
There is a new technology for gasoline, the Miller Cycle, that is predicated on the engine control features developed over that past decade, oddly in part due to the work that was done to clean up Diesel. This promises to compete with Diesel fuel economy, but not on a per KW basis, rather the Miller Cycle is still quite fuel efficient, but not as powerful.
The problem for Miller Cycle is if $7-8 gallon fuel prices eventually come back to the EU. This is not yet a reality, but it is no longer a remote possibility. With the Saudi's now pissed off at Trump suggesting he will belly up to Putin, OPEC has suddenly become a potential political block once again. It is true shale oil production will increase if prices go beyond $55 per barrel, but the is a buffer only for shale oil producing regions, not EU.
This is the rough picture related to banning intercity Diesel vehicles and any surmise that this is in some way 'hand writing on the wall'. This does not follow the underlaying fuel supply economics or technology capabilities subject to better regulation.
As an aside, MB just spend 3 billion dollars in R&D on the new generation Diesel engines. What do they know?
Last edited by Mike__S; 12-06-2016 at 04:17 AM.
12-06-2016, 04:17 AM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
I hope you are correct my friend, but there are many strange decisions being made in this world at the moment by incompetent people .
Technology advances may make the use of all carbon fuels a the thing of the past.
Thanks for your intelligent input.
Technology advances may make the use of all carbon fuels a the thing of the past.
Thanks for your intelligent input.
12-06-2016, 07:50 AM
#5
Senior Member
Yep, leave it to government to F&^% everything up! My diesel 2015 GL diesel was regularly getting 27, and even 29 mpg on my home to school to work route. Lease turned in last week and got a GLE350. Same run.....18!!!!!! Tell me how that math works. More energy goes into producing gas than diesel and more gas burned to go the same distance. Only ignorant corrupt politicians know this math.
Second; today diesel is evil, tomorrow it will be ok again. This cycle is the same as everything else "THEY" tell us. To hell with "they".
Mike - the Saudis are only mad at Trump because they had already bought and paid for Hillary. She has been their puppet for years. In the end they only care about money so....business as usual with their supply.
Second; today diesel is evil, tomorrow it will be ok again. This cycle is the same as everything else "THEY" tell us. To hell with "they".
Mike - the Saudis are only mad at Trump because they had already bought and paid for Hillary. She has been their puppet for years. In the end they only care about money so....business as usual with their supply.
12-06-2016, 09:06 AM
#6
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He is right. I go to EU every other year and regular gas still is ~$7 a gallon. Diesel is necessary there.
12-06-2016, 02:11 PM
#7
Member
The Saudis, along with several other cultural entities were coopted long long ago, my friend. Spinning the present situation as a recent and chargeable offense is not my game. My game is economic history.
Not to talk politics in the ward room, but big oil and politics goes back over 100 years. It originates as the last significant development of the western colonial era, and involves many players, including no less than Winston Churchill as a young First Lord of the Admiralty in 1914. It is, along with railroads, also a complex series of legal events that laid foundation for the modern corporate era.
Big oil has continued to be a major and complex policy consideration for any nation at any time. Simple, fuzzy interpretation of recent events is looking at the tip of an iceberg through fog. I only need remind that northern indigenous peoples have multiple words to describe what we call ice and snow to suggest a more informed study of oil policy issues in world events. It has neither simplistic causes nor answers. It is not something to get wrong or use as a whipping boy.
Western political spectrum has a history of more deliberate and rational policy driven initiatives that many today give credit. We should praise good government as much as we denigrate evil government, but that implies we collectively still know the difference. It is thus alarming that our institutions are under clever attack by the far right to such an extent that we now realize our last place of refuge is with the legal system itself and its time proven precedents.
Heracilts (ca. 540-470 bc) thought much on politics and human nature. Particularly the fact that change was inevitable. He wrote the following: "ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων"
This has a traditional translation of 'Character is Destiny', yet in its proper context, perhaps we should note the Greek words encompass ἦθος or Ethos, the spirit of a cultural era, "ἀνθρώπῳ" mankind, and "δαίμων" is devil or temptation of evil. It is a reminder that lack of character (personal or collective, for the Greek mind made no distinction) has bad consequences.
To the Greek mind, the expression is a both stern admonition and a call to the duties of the good citizen, among which are honesty, truthfulness and clarity. These and other qualities of citizenship are essential for our collective survival. Think not? Look about the world of the last one hundred years and recall the consequences when they have gone missing.
Not to talk politics in the ward room, but big oil and politics goes back over 100 years. It originates as the last significant development of the western colonial era, and involves many players, including no less than Winston Churchill as a young First Lord of the Admiralty in 1914. It is, along with railroads, also a complex series of legal events that laid foundation for the modern corporate era.
Big oil has continued to be a major and complex policy consideration for any nation at any time. Simple, fuzzy interpretation of recent events is looking at the tip of an iceberg through fog. I only need remind that northern indigenous peoples have multiple words to describe what we call ice and snow to suggest a more informed study of oil policy issues in world events. It has neither simplistic causes nor answers. It is not something to get wrong or use as a whipping boy.
Western political spectrum has a history of more deliberate and rational policy driven initiatives that many today give credit. We should praise good government as much as we denigrate evil government, but that implies we collectively still know the difference. It is thus alarming that our institutions are under clever attack by the far right to such an extent that we now realize our last place of refuge is with the legal system itself and its time proven precedents.
Heracilts (ca. 540-470 bc) thought much on politics and human nature. Particularly the fact that change was inevitable. He wrote the following: "ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων"
This has a traditional translation of 'Character is Destiny', yet in its proper context, perhaps we should note the Greek words encompass ἦθος or Ethos, the spirit of a cultural era, "ἀνθρώπῳ" mankind, and "δαίμων" is devil or temptation of evil. It is a reminder that lack of character (personal or collective, for the Greek mind made no distinction) has bad consequences.
To the Greek mind, the expression is a both stern admonition and a call to the duties of the good citizen, among which are honesty, truthfulness and clarity. These and other qualities of citizenship are essential for our collective survival. Think not? Look about the world of the last one hundred years and recall the consequences when they have gone missing.
Last edited by Mike__S; 12-06-2016 at 02:16 PM.
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12-06-2016, 02:33 PM
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
You have to be correct because you talk a lot.
The fact is the mayors of Paris, Madrid, Athens and Mexico City announced plans on Friday to take diesel cars and vans off their roads by 2025.
The fact is the mayors of Paris, Madrid, Athens and Mexico City announced plans on Friday to take diesel cars and vans off their roads by 2025.
12-06-2016, 05:23 PM
#9
Super Member
Yep, leave it to government to F&^% everything up! My diesel 2015 GL diesel was regularly getting 27, and even 29 mpg on my home to school to work route. Lease turned in last week and got a GLE350. Same run.....18!!!!!! Tell me how that math works. More energy goes into producing gas than diesel and more gas burned to go the same distance. Only ignorant corrupt politicians know this math.
Second; today diesel is evil, tomorrow it will be ok again. This cycle is the same as everything else "THEY" tell us. To hell with "they".
Mike - the Saudis are only mad at Trump because they had already bought and paid for Hillary. She has been their puppet for years. In the end they only care about money so....business as usual with their supply.
Second; today diesel is evil, tomorrow it will be ok again. This cycle is the same as everything else "THEY" tell us. To hell with "they".
Mike - the Saudis are only mad at Trump because they had already bought and paid for Hillary. She has been their puppet for years. In the end they only care about money so....business as usual with their supply.
12-08-2016, 02:25 PM
#11
Senior Member
1. lease was up
2. Stupid government (I know, redundant) halted GLS diesels
3. 4 banger diesel just doesn't cut it in an SUV
4. What the Fu^& are you talking about???!! A diesel from another manufacturer!!! After driving Mercedes for so many years, all other cars literally feel like cheap piles of crap. Why would I put my family in something less safe that what is offered by Mercedes-Benz?! If you have the means, why the hell would you not put your children in the safest cars on the road
On top of all that, my body would never forgive me for such uncomfortable seats from other brands.
12-08-2016, 02:36 PM
#12
Super Member
Good question
1. lease was up
2. Stupid government (I know, redundant) halted GLS diesels
3. 4 banger diesel just doesn't cut it in an SUV
4. What the Fu^& are you talking about???!! A diesel from another manufacturer!!! After driving Mercedes for so many years, all other cars literally feel like cheap piles of crap. Why would I put my family in something less safe that what is offered by Mercedes-Benz?! If you have the means, why the hell would you not put your children in the safest cars on the road
On top of all that, my body would never forgive me for such uncomfortable seats from other brands.
1. lease was up
2. Stupid government (I know, redundant) halted GLS diesels
3. 4 banger diesel just doesn't cut it in an SUV
4. What the Fu^& are you talking about???!! A diesel from another manufacturer!!! After driving Mercedes for so many years, all other cars literally feel like cheap piles of crap. Why would I put my family in something less safe that what is offered by Mercedes-Benz?! If you have the means, why the hell would you not put your children in the safest cars on the road
On top of all that, my body would never forgive me for such uncomfortable seats from other brands.
Mercedes is definitely a safe car, well engineered and comfortable, but I hardly think they have a monopoly on that. There are a LOT of great safe cars from a number of manufacturers these days.
12-08-2016, 02:48 PM
#13
Senior Member
You could have either extended the lease or just bought the car outright if you liked it so much.
Mercedes is definitely a safe car, well engineered and comfortable, but I hardly think they have a monopoly on that. There are a LOT of great safe cars from a number of manufacturers these days.
Mercedes is definitely a safe car, well engineered and comfortable, but I hardly think they have a monopoly on that. There are a LOT of great safe cars from a number of manufacturers these days.
Not going to spend $2,000 on maintenance and new tires on top of $1,000+ payment to keep a used car. I'll get over the fact that gas sucks and in a year or two if the gov allows GLS350 in; I'll get that again.
There are safe cars, cause Mercedes-Benz sells THEIR safety patents for $1 to the rest of the companies. They INVENTED every safety (only Volvo has the 3 point seat belt) feature used today. Why not use theirs and not some cheaper version of it? Please don't tell me you are of the mind set that all airbags, abs, seat belts, crumple zones, traction control systems, etc are the same!
12-08-2016, 03:32 PM
#14
Super Member
A lot of those things are built to a standard. Like in the case of airbags, pretty much every manufacturer no matter how expensive or cheap was using the same kind of airbags and 20-30 million are being recalled, Mercedes included. Do I think Mercedes is an unsafe car because they got caught up in that? Of course not. Mercedes is a safe car, a great safe car, no doubt about it. I just am of the opinion that there are others out there too and that they are not "less" safe because Mercedes didn't make all their safety kit. Maybe I am just not as loyal to the brand as some on here. I have only owned mine for a little over a year. I do love it though.
12-09-2016, 08:39 AM
#18
Super Member
Very, very uncommon. US emission standards are currently more stringent than pretty much everywhere else on the planet.
The same can be said of class 8 (big) trucks. The output from the stack is nearly as clean as what goes in the engine air intake.
In California the police will write you a citation if your vehicle is emitting visible emissions.
The same can be said of class 8 (big) trucks. The output from the stack is nearly as clean as what goes in the engine air intake.
In California the police will write you a citation if your vehicle is emitting visible emissions.
Last edited by larrypmyers; 12-12-2016 at 11:58 AM.
12-09-2016, 10:04 AM
#20
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Unrelated, but
In Macedonia we got pulled over for having a crack on our windshield
Over here in the US, HALF THE DAMN CAR has fallen apart and people are allowed to drive it. Ridiculous.
In Macedonia we got pulled over for having a crack on our windshield
Over here in the US, HALF THE DAMN CAR has fallen apart and people are allowed to drive it. Ridiculous.
12-10-2016, 01:13 AM
#21
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
There must be a balance regarding car age & condition. A lot of less well off folk can be put off the road to the detriment of the economy & society if rules are too stringent. Safety is a different matter , steering ,brakes, lights, structural integrity & tyres should be a fair standard.
12-10-2016, 08:05 AM
#22
Super Member
This as allready started in France no cars in the towns .And it will be the same over here in the UK .Its said that any aspirated engine will be outlawed by 2030 .
12-12-2016, 07:40 AM
#23
Member
As I understand it (and as a diesel driver so am watching closely), the real issue is with Nitrogen oxide particuulates that pollute the atmosphere, whatever the diesel engine is. This poses a real threat to children and older people. My 2009 W204 would require me to pay a penalty to drive in London soon if the legislation is passed.
