Accident on a leased car, questions
07-06-2016, 02:21 PM
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
now this right here gives me a piece of mind.
all my previous cars were either financed or bought out right. this is the first time in my life i lease a car.
i intend on leasing forever to get into a new car every 3 years. But i never thought about what happens in the case of an acciddent.
07-06-2016, 02:30 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
I was an adjuster for a decade. Let me dispel some common adjuster myths:
-The adjuster is incentivized by the carrier to "low ball" or short the estimate.
The carrier has no frame of reference for what a proper repair on any specific hit would cost, since every collision is different, so they have no idea whether or not you as an adjuster saved them any money. They don't have the manpower to audit every single file, look at the photos, and try to second guess the field estimate. I was never instructed to short an estimate.
I'm not interested in spending a lot of time haggling with the shop over small stuff. While I was finalizing your estimate, I got assigned five more cars to inspect that day. I just want to pay your claim so it closes and drops out of my inventory.
An adjuster typically will have two or three files pulled for audit once a year out of hundreds of files. The carrier is looking to make sure you're not pissing money away needlessly, and they want to see how thorough your first estimate was by checking the ratio of estimates in which you had to re-inspect for supplemental damage. That's it.
-The shop is the owner's ally against the adjuster.
Nope. Not even close. The shop will in all likelihood look at the bottom line on the estimate I write, ignore the repair methodology I wrote entirely, and figure out how they can make the most possible profit fixing the car in a way that still looks acceptable. Then they'll see if they can fatten the bottom line by getting me to move on some borderline items.
For example, I was writing a sheet at a very reputable shop on a car with a fairly mangled rear quarter. By my estimate, the quarter was repairable and I wrote a liberal amount of labor time to fix it. The shop cried bloody murder, insisting the panel was too far gone to be repaired. They wanted the money to replace it.
Replacing a quarter panel, which has to be cut out of the car and a new one welded in place, increases an estimate by $2,500 in labor easily, not to mention the cost of the part. Before the damaged quarter can be cut out, the rear interior of the car and trunk has to be pulled. It's a huge, invasive and expensive repair.
But it was borderline, and the shop insisted a repair would not be a quality job, so I gave them the money ($3,500 parts and labor) for a new quarter. A few weeks later I was at the shop for another car and saw that car with the damaged quarter...which had been pulled, straightened, filled (not replaced) and awaiting paint. They had it tucked away and covered with a tarp. Anyway, I wrote a negative supplement and pulled that money back, but most of the time I didn't happen to come by at the right moment. This was not an isolated event. It's a constant battle with every single shop every single day. The shop in this example was one of our "preferred" shops. Imagine the nonsense that went on at shops we didn't have a relationship with. New adjusters get eaten alive by these guys. They're not out for you, although they'll swear up and down they're fighting the adjuster for a quality repair.
That's why adjusters are necessary. Not to low ball car owners, but as a constant check on body shops. Body shops are interested in the "right" repair only to the extent it's the most costly repair. Then they figure out the cheapest way to get it done and still look good, and pocket the difference. My job was to also find out the cheapest way to get it done in advance. They still made the honest profit built into the estimate, but that was it. Otherwise, I write a $12,000 sheet, they insist they need $15,000, and then fix it using a repair methodology that would have cost $8,000.
As far as a shop being your advocate, you are nothing to them. How many times do they think you'll be back with more wrecked cars in the future for them to fix? Zero. Statistically you're likely to be a one-off. Now me, the adjuster...I send them a continuous flow of wrecked cars and a continuous flow of insurance checks. They're really careful about pissing me off. You? They don't really care if you're pissed off or not with the quality of a repair. Re-doing a repair will do nothing but cost them money. But if I think the work on your car isn't satisfactory, and I don't want to waste a bunch of time on a closed file, one phone call to the shop gets the car back in for a re-do.
So if the shop calls you complaining that the adjuster shorted the estimate, take that with a grain of salt. They generally have other motives. Unless your adjuster is greener than green, or being a general dick-head, let them do their thing. They don't want to deal with you for the next six months *****ing about the repair quality. They want you to be satisfied so you'll shut up and go away.
-Dealer body shop techs are experts in the brand.
Wow. No again. Here's a tragic example: I rolled up on a new Ford Thunderbird that had been walloped in a head on. It was a bad hit, but the value of the car was such that even after writing a five figure estimate, using all new parts, the damn thing didn't total. I spoke with the insured, a woman, and strongly recommended the car go to our area "pro" shop, whom we had a relationship with, and whose workmanship we guaranteed. Typically I didn't hard sell the pro shop, but this thing had a tweaked frame and it needed a good shop.
The lady agreed. Then I had to go by her place and get her signature, and her boyfriend accosted me in the driveway, wanting to know why I wasn't sending the car to the Ford dealer. I explained it was because the Ford dealer in town was especially sucky, with poor outcomes, huge delays, and an inability to keep the same manager or techs for more than three months in a row. He wanted none of it and demanded the car go to Ford. I explain that I have zero leverage at Ford, so if they're unhappy, they're unhappy. I have tons of leverage at the pro shop, and the carrier will guarantee the workmanship for the life of the car. Nope. FORD!!!
So Ford gets the car and a $15,000 check. They have the thing for four months and call me out for a supplement, which was another couple grand. Finally, they deliver the car to their customer. I get a panicked phone call from the lady. The car looks terrible. There's overspray everywhere. The panels don't line up. The car goes down the road sideways. None of the stickers under the hood have been replaced. It's obvious the car has been wrecked.
She's so upset she takes the car from the Ford body shop directly to the showroom to trade it in. It's worth next to nothing they tell her because "obviously its been wrecked". They're aware it was their shop that f'd it up, and they don't care. Next, the lady's dad, who owns a business and has a fleet of Ford vans he buys there exclusively, threatens to pull his business if they don't put a better number on the trade. They tell him to take a hike too.
Now hysterical and in tears, the lady begs me for help. I suggest we take the car to the pro shop I offered in the first place, to see if they'll clean up the repair. Remove the overspray, replace the stickers, see if the panels can be adjusted, do an alignment. I also get authority to pay the pro shop for the extra work. So the car is there about an hour when I get a call to come by, they want to show me something.
The guy hands me a coffee can full of washers, and the whole nose of the car is off. Those were the washers that the Ford shop had used as shims trying to get the sheet metal to line up. Worse, while Ford had been paid to section in a new upper frame rail, instead they had just hacked the damaged area off and welded the new rail on top of the old one.
The pro shop had racked and measured the car and quickly discovered the cast iron engine cradle was warped in the accident. Which was why the front panels didn't line up and the car wouldn't hold an alignment. Since the cradle wasn't in the original estimate or supplement, I had extra money to pay the pro shop to replace the cradle, and they handled the rest as good will. The lady of was still pissed at me...not her boyfriend...not Ford...and threatened to sue, which of course came to nothing.
So, my advice is this: If you personally have had experience with a specific shop and been pleased with their work, take your car there. If not, use the carrier's preferred or "pro" shop. Steer clear of dealerships. They generally have the highest staff and management turn-over rates and are under huge pressure from the dealership itself to be a profit center.
-The adjuster is incentivized by the carrier to "low ball" or short the estimate.
The carrier has no frame of reference for what a proper repair on any specific hit would cost, since every collision is different, so they have no idea whether or not you as an adjuster saved them any money. They don't have the manpower to audit every single file, look at the photos, and try to second guess the field estimate. I was never instructed to short an estimate.
I'm not interested in spending a lot of time haggling with the shop over small stuff. While I was finalizing your estimate, I got assigned five more cars to inspect that day. I just want to pay your claim so it closes and drops out of my inventory.
An adjuster typically will have two or three files pulled for audit once a year out of hundreds of files. The carrier is looking to make sure you're not pissing money away needlessly, and they want to see how thorough your first estimate was by checking the ratio of estimates in which you had to re-inspect for supplemental damage. That's it.
-The shop is the owner's ally against the adjuster.
Nope. Not even close. The shop will in all likelihood look at the bottom line on the estimate I write, ignore the repair methodology I wrote entirely, and figure out how they can make the most possible profit fixing the car in a way that still looks acceptable. Then they'll see if they can fatten the bottom line by getting me to move on some borderline items.
For example, I was writing a sheet at a very reputable shop on a car with a fairly mangled rear quarter. By my estimate, the quarter was repairable and I wrote a liberal amount of labor time to fix it. The shop cried bloody murder, insisting the panel was too far gone to be repaired. They wanted the money to replace it.
Replacing a quarter panel, which has to be cut out of the car and a new one welded in place, increases an estimate by $2,500 in labor easily, not to mention the cost of the part. Before the damaged quarter can be cut out, the rear interior of the car and trunk has to be pulled. It's a huge, invasive and expensive repair.
But it was borderline, and the shop insisted a repair would not be a quality job, so I gave them the money ($3,500 parts and labor) for a new quarter. A few weeks later I was at the shop for another car and saw that car with the damaged quarter...which had been pulled, straightened, filled (not replaced) and awaiting paint. They had it tucked away and covered with a tarp. Anyway, I wrote a negative supplement and pulled that money back, but most of the time I didn't happen to come by at the right moment. This was not an isolated event. It's a constant battle with every single shop every single day. The shop in this example was one of our "preferred" shops. Imagine the nonsense that went on at shops we didn't have a relationship with. New adjusters get eaten alive by these guys. They're not out for you, although they'll swear up and down they're fighting the adjuster for a quality repair.
That's why adjusters are necessary. Not to low ball car owners, but as a constant check on body shops. Body shops are interested in the "right" repair only to the extent it's the most costly repair. Then they figure out the cheapest way to get it done and still look good, and pocket the difference. My job was to also find out the cheapest way to get it done in advance. They still made the honest profit built into the estimate, but that was it. Otherwise, I write a $12,000 sheet, they insist they need $15,000, and then fix it using a repair methodology that would have cost $8,000.
As far as a shop being your advocate, you are nothing to them. How many times do they think you'll be back with more wrecked cars in the future for them to fix? Zero. Statistically you're likely to be a one-off. Now me, the adjuster...I send them a continuous flow of wrecked cars and a continuous flow of insurance checks. They're really careful about pissing me off. You? They don't really care if you're pissed off or not with the quality of a repair. Re-doing a repair will do nothing but cost them money. But if I think the work on your car isn't satisfactory, and I don't want to waste a bunch of time on a closed file, one phone call to the shop gets the car back in for a re-do.
So if the shop calls you complaining that the adjuster shorted the estimate, take that with a grain of salt. They generally have other motives. Unless your adjuster is greener than green, or being a general dick-head, let them do their thing. They don't want to deal with you for the next six months *****ing about the repair quality. They want you to be satisfied so you'll shut up and go away.
-Dealer body shop techs are experts in the brand.
Wow. No again. Here's a tragic example: I rolled up on a new Ford Thunderbird that had been walloped in a head on. It was a bad hit, but the value of the car was such that even after writing a five figure estimate, using all new parts, the damn thing didn't total. I spoke with the insured, a woman, and strongly recommended the car go to our area "pro" shop, whom we had a relationship with, and whose workmanship we guaranteed. Typically I didn't hard sell the pro shop, but this thing had a tweaked frame and it needed a good shop.
The lady agreed. Then I had to go by her place and get her signature, and her boyfriend accosted me in the driveway, wanting to know why I wasn't sending the car to the Ford dealer. I explained it was because the Ford dealer in town was especially sucky, with poor outcomes, huge delays, and an inability to keep the same manager or techs for more than three months in a row. He wanted none of it and demanded the car go to Ford. I explain that I have zero leverage at Ford, so if they're unhappy, they're unhappy. I have tons of leverage at the pro shop, and the carrier will guarantee the workmanship for the life of the car. Nope. FORD!!!
So Ford gets the car and a $15,000 check. They have the thing for four months and call me out for a supplement, which was another couple grand. Finally, they deliver the car to their customer. I get a panicked phone call from the lady. The car looks terrible. There's overspray everywhere. The panels don't line up. The car goes down the road sideways. None of the stickers under the hood have been replaced. It's obvious the car has been wrecked.
She's so upset she takes the car from the Ford body shop directly to the showroom to trade it in. It's worth next to nothing they tell her because "obviously its been wrecked". They're aware it was their shop that f'd it up, and they don't care. Next, the lady's dad, who owns a business and has a fleet of Ford vans he buys there exclusively, threatens to pull his business if they don't put a better number on the trade. They tell him to take a hike too.
Now hysterical and in tears, the lady begs me for help. I suggest we take the car to the pro shop I offered in the first place, to see if they'll clean up the repair. Remove the overspray, replace the stickers, see if the panels can be adjusted, do an alignment. I also get authority to pay the pro shop for the extra work. So the car is there about an hour when I get a call to come by, they want to show me something.
The guy hands me a coffee can full of washers, and the whole nose of the car is off. Those were the washers that the Ford shop had used as shims trying to get the sheet metal to line up. Worse, while Ford had been paid to section in a new upper frame rail, instead they had just hacked the damaged area off and welded the new rail on top of the old one.
The pro shop had racked and measured the car and quickly discovered the cast iron engine cradle was warped in the accident. Which was why the front panels didn't line up and the car wouldn't hold an alignment. Since the cradle wasn't in the original estimate or supplement, I had extra money to pay the pro shop to replace the cradle, and they handled the rest as good will. The lady of was still pissed at me...not her boyfriend...not Ford...and threatened to sue, which of course came to nothing.
So, my advice is this: If you personally have had experience with a specific shop and been pleased with their work, take your car there. If not, use the carrier's preferred or "pro" shop. Steer clear of dealerships. They generally have the highest staff and management turn-over rates and are under huge pressure from the dealership itself to be a profit center.
07-06-2016, 02:31 PM
#29
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
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2016 C450 AMG
gee, 14k?
now this right here gives me a piece of mind.
all my previous cars were either financed or bought out right. this is the first time in my life i lease a car.
i intend on leasing forever to get into a new car every 3 years. But i never thought about what happens in the case of an acciddent.
now this right here gives me a piece of mind.
all my previous cars were either financed or bought out right. this is the first time in my life i lease a car.
i intend on leasing forever to get into a new car every 3 years. But i never thought about what happens in the case of an acciddent.
Its not really free you pay for it in your money factor rate and cant be unbundled
07-06-2016, 03:58 PM
#30
Super Member
OP... you are worrying too much.
I had an accident with lease car and made sure that my Dealership's Repair/collision center did all of the work. Yes price was higher but, you are not at fault and you have every right to choose your shop of choice.
Not only that, my state allows for diminish value. In my last Benz I got side swiped like you and I filed for diminish value. I used the diminish value to put towards my new car.
I had an accident with lease car and made sure that my Dealership's Repair/collision center did all of the work. Yes price was higher but, you are not at fault and you have every right to choose your shop of choice.
Not only that, my state allows for diminish value. In my last Benz I got side swiped like you and I filed for diminish value. I used the diminish value to put towards my new car.
07-06-2016, 05:24 PM
#31
OP... you are worrying too much.
I had an accident with lease car and made sure that my Dealership's Repair/collision center did all of the work. Yes price was higher but, you are not at fault and you have every right to choose your shop of choice.
Not only that, my state allows for diminish value. In my last Benz I got side swiped like you and I filed for diminish value. I used the diminish value to put towards my new car.
I had an accident with lease car and made sure that my Dealership's Repair/collision center did all of the work. Yes price was higher but, you are not at fault and you have every right to choose your shop of choice.
Not only that, my state allows for diminish value. In my last Benz I got side swiped like you and I filed for diminish value. I used the diminish value to put towards my new car.
Wow, that seems unfair and a little shady to take advantage of the situation like that.
The other 80% of me says
You are wise young grasshopper.
07-06-2016, 05:46 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Some states allow for a third party diminution of value (DOV) claim. With accident databases like the ones CarFax uses making it possible for potential buyers to know the car has been hit, the repaired damage does impact the actual value of the car.
07-06-2016, 07:16 PM
#33
I can see a problem with taking the cash payment if you plan on returning the lease. I also can see a problem with leaving money on the table that has your name on it.
02-05-2017, 08:06 PM
#35
I am in a similar situation, someone hit my leased car from behind. It was a slow bump, so that damage is literally a single scratch on the rear right bumper.
I called up the insurance company and informed them of the accident, the person who bumped me does not have an insurance but I have collected his name, license and address.
What do I do next?
I had planned to take the car to the dealership for its service coming weekend, planning to ask them for the repairs at that time.
Does this impact my return of the leased car at the end of the lease? Do I need to inform MB of this accident?
I called up the insurance company and informed them of the accident, the person who bumped me does not have an insurance but I have collected his name, license and address.
What do I do next?
I had planned to take the car to the dealership for its service coming weekend, planning to ask them for the repairs at that time.
Does this impact my return of the leased car at the end of the lease? Do I need to inform MB of this accident?
02-05-2017, 08:11 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
It has no affect on your lease. Just get the car fixed. That is why you are required to carry insurance. The bumper will be fixed good as new.
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Ankit Agarwal (02-05-2017)
02-05-2017, 08:20 PM
#37
I got really worried as what to do next, insurance guy told me that there is no need for police report since it is a minor scratch on the bumper.
In hind sight, leasing was probably not a good idea cause vehicle does not belong to me and I was worried about if MB will charge me depreciation. On other hand, if I am leasing a vehicle for 3yrs, they would probably expect a few incidents like this.
02-05-2017, 08:53 PM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
MB will only charge you for unrepaired damage or wear and tear that is deemed excessive under the terms of your lease. Actually when it comes to collision damage you're in much better shape on a leased car than one you own or are financing. On a lease, a hit on CARFAX for an accident costs you nothing. On a purchase, it can impact resale value.
MB uses a template to determine if scratches and dents are minor enough to fall under "acceptable" wear and tear. For minor scratches, car lots usually use a mobile scratch repair service. They come out, fill the scratch and custom tint color to blend it in. Once they're done you'd never know it had a defect. Ask your SA if they can get that handled for you. Usually under $100.
MB uses a template to determine if scratches and dents are minor enough to fall under "acceptable" wear and tear. For minor scratches, car lots usually use a mobile scratch repair service. They come out, fill the scratch and custom tint color to blend it in. Once they're done you'd never know it had a defect. Ask your SA if they can get that handled for you. Usually under $100.
02-05-2017, 09:00 PM
#39
Thank you Mike!!
I have informed my insurance company, planning to talk to MB Service Center tomorrow to schedule a service and inspection for fixing the scratch. I do not think I need to explicitly inform MB as well for the minor incident, let me know if you guys feel otherwise.
I am so much relieved after hearing your & Jeff's comments, can't thank you guys enough.
I have informed my insurance company, planning to talk to MB Service Center tomorrow to schedule a service and inspection for fixing the scratch. I do not think I need to explicitly inform MB as well for the minor incident, let me know if you guys feel otherwise.
I am so much relieved after hearing your & Jeff's comments, can't thank you guys enough.
02-05-2017, 09:12 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
While all appearances would suggest you leased the car from the dealer, the dealer actually holds zero interest in the car, so they don't need or want to know about damage. You leased the car from Mercedes Benz Financial Services, who in turn bought the car for you and paid the dealer in full. Two entirely separate entities.
So feel free to bring the car in for service in whatever shape you'd like. Damaged, dirty, modded, whatever. Just make sure it's put right when MBFS sends out a 3rd party inspector at lease end.
BTW, I got this scratch on the rear of my leased '16
So feel free to bring the car in for service in whatever shape you'd like. Damaged, dirty, modded, whatever. Just make sure it's put right when MBFS sends out a 3rd party inspector at lease end.
BTW, I got this scratch on the rear of my leased '16
Last edited by Mike5215; 02-05-2017 at 09:28 PM.
02-06-2017, 10:38 AM
#41
Super Member
Definitely agree with Mike.
Chances are the cars will end up at some sort of internal auction anyway so the dealership you leased it from probably won't be the one re-buying and selling it CPO'ed.
It's actually a good thing you leased it OP. The depreciation is already set in stone via the contract you signed you don't lose any value from it being involved in an accident. If you had purchased it, then reporting an accident to your insurance will be list it on the Carfax. This immediately lowers it's value if you tried to sell it (on top of the world famous German depreciation).
Chances are the cars will end up at some sort of internal auction anyway so the dealership you leased it from probably won't be the one re-buying and selling it CPO'ed.
It's actually a good thing you leased it OP. The depreciation is already set in stone via the contract you signed you don't lose any value from it being involved in an accident. If you had purchased it, then reporting an accident to your insurance will be list it on the Carfax. This immediately lowers it's value if you tried to sell it (on top of the world famous German depreciation).
